Hmm, if you're tortured permanently in hell...

here's the king james version of revelation...even more confusing in their use of 'hell' in place of 'hades', so you're left thinking how god can manage to throw hell into hell...

20:1__And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
20:2__And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
20:3__And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
20:4__And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5__But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6__Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
20:7__And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
20:8__And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
20:9__And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
20:10__And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
20:11__And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12__And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13__And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14__And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15__And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

still as feceman points out there is a distinction between those few who are thrown in the lake of fire and those who are simply consumed by fire. its beyond me that we even percieve hell in the way that is common (suffer for eternity). upon reviewing the scripture id be a fool to not reconsider.

makes me wonder if there is any deliberate suffering at all, or is this just god's handy dandy method of waste management/disposal

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
LU is now properly taken care.

I suggest that this topic returns to it's original discussion.

No more bickering.

Originally posted by PVS
makes me wonder if there is any deliberate suffering at all, or is this just god's handy dandy method of waste management/disposal

When a person commits a crime is it the judge's fault when legal punishment is enacted upon them, or is the punishment the result of the person's own actions?

Originally posted by PVS
here's the king james version of revelation...even more confusing in their use of 'hell' in place of 'hades', so you're left thinking how god can manage to throw hell into hell...

20:1__And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
20:2__And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
20:3__And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
20:4__And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5__But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6__Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
20:7__And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
20:8__And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
20:9__And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
20:10__And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
20:11__And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12__And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13__And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14__And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15__And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

still as feceman points out there is a distinction between those few who are thrown in the lake of fire and those who are simply consumed by fire. its beyond me that we even percieve hell in the way that is common (suffer for eternity). upon reviewing the scripture id be a fool to not reconsider.

makes me wonder if there is any deliberate suffering at all, or is this just god's handy dandy method of waste management/disposal

but thats the thing. would it really be considered 'punishment' if souls were simply eliminated rather than tormented? wouldnt that simply be an act of justice free of any vengeance/wrath?

Originally posted by Nellinator
So your seeing that the fire and Hades/Sheol are different now? That the lake of fire is a destruction?

Originally posted by PVS
but thats the thing. would it really be considered 'punishment' if souls were simply eliminated rather than tormented? wouldnt that simply be an act of justice free of any vengeance/wrath?

Originally posted by PVS
as always im just trying to piece together a very confusing story. in fact i dont belive in satan or the lake of fire at all.

you can also blame christian schools for hammering in that idea right from the start. i reflect to my lessons in first grade, catholic school and the subject of hell would always be first for discussion and quite vivid in description. its not like people just assume it all, its taught.

True enough. Truthfully all that I have been teaching about hell here for the last couple weeks is stuff that I have only believed for a few weeks. I haven't been a Christian for very long and I'm still studying different areas, but I refuse to simply believe what people tell me and I rely strictly on what God tells me concerning these things via the Bible. That's why it frustrates me to see people who say they are Christian and don't know the Bible, ultimately they end up misleading people.

Originally posted by Nellinator
I rely strictly on what God tells me concerning these things via the Bible.

you had me until that bit there...

Well that is simply the difference between us which ultimately leads to large differences.

im willing to buy the idea that the people who wrote the bible were divinely touched to do so, but to treat the bible as the difinitive source of divine knowledge imho a kind of figurative idol worship (the right words escape me). i just have a lack of unconditional belief that gods word never got lost in a mans words and ideas.

the only way you could believe it to be the word of god is to assume that god literally dictated the whole thing. which would make every gospel the work of a glorified secretary.

It isn't the only source as the Holy Spirit puts the 'law in our hearts'. That is why Christians oppose things like making drugs legal and what not. Our moral standards are subject to what God would want as he indicates to us through the Holy Spirit. That can be dangerous thing as sometimes it can be difficult for Christians to discern what is indeed the Holy Spirit.

A prophet being a glorified secretary is not so far from the truth, although the Bible teaches that the gift of prophecy is the greatest spiritual gift we can be given. I'm willing to say that parts of the Bible may not be divinely inspired, ie. the history sections, but I fully believe that every prophecy and the accuracy of what occurred is fully preserved in the Bible.

Originally posted by Nellinator
It isn't the only source as the Holy Spirit puts the 'law in our hearts'. That is why Christians oppose things like making drugs legal and what not. Our moral standards are subject to what God would want as he indicates to us through the Holy Spirit. That can be dangerous thing as sometimes it can be difficult for Christians to discern what is indeed the Holy Spirit.

this part you should reconsider entirely. thats pretty much declaring specific men to your religion are able to channel the holy spirit and thus becoming kind of a false prophet, like (god forgive me) pat robertson. its a dangerous and fanatical line to cross in that it allows even beliefs not in the book to be followed as the scripture.

"ideal-worshipping." ...the words i was looking for in my previous post. its basically the excuse for empires to dominate under gods word. 'blame it on god' you might say.

the bible mentions nothing of 'drugs'. perhaps specific mind altering substances...particularly wine...lots of wine. and why not? it would comfort me to know that jesus at least got to kick back and tie one on before his last infinitely crappy day.

Originally posted by Nellinator
A prophet being a glorified secretary is not so far from the truth, although the Bible teaches that the gift of prophecy is the greatest spiritual gift we can be given. I'm willing to say that parts of the Bible may not be divinely inspired, ie. the history sections, but I fully believe that every prophecy and the accuracy of what occurred is fully preserved in the Bible. [/B]

i guess thats where we differ

Originally posted by PVS
this part you should reconsider entirely. thats pretty much declaring specific men to your religion are able to channel the holy spirit and thus becoming kind of a false prophet, like (god forgive me) pat robertson. its a dangerous and fanatical line to cross in that it allows even beliefs not in the book to be followed as the scripture.

"ideal-worshipping." ...the words i was looking for in my previous post. its basically the excuse for empires to dominate under gods word. 'blame it on god' you might say.

the bible mentions nothing of 'drugs'. perhaps specific mind altering substances...particularly wine...lots of wine. and why not? it would comfort me to know that jesus at least got to kick back and tie one on before his last infinitely crappy day.

I tend to think that dominating by God's word does not apply. Everyone is to be given a choice according to what the Bible shows. If one chooses God they are held to its teachings and expected to follow them. God never sought domination in history, nor does He now. He simply desires for all men to be saved according to the Bible. In fact, Israel never originally had a king or government, the Law was kept by the people and it wasn't until the Israelites wanted a king that they got one.

Your right, the Bible does not talk about drugs, but by the Holy Spirit we know that things such as cocaine are wrong. Jesus drank wine and the Bible does not condemn drinking and Jesus drank wine, however, it strongly warns against drunkeness because of the mischeviousness and dependency that seems to follow it.

Originally posted by Nellinator

I tend to think that dominating by God's word does not apply. Everyone is to be given a choice according to what the Bible shows. If one chooses God they are held to its teachings and expected to follow them. God never sought domination in history, nor does He now. He simply desires for all men to be saved according to the Bible. In fact, Israel never originally had a king or government, the Law was kept by the people and it wasn't until the Israelites wanted a king that they got one.

Your right, the Bible does not talk about drugs, but by the Holy Spirit we know that things such as cocaine are wrong. Jesus drank wine and the Bible does not condemn drinking and Jesus drank wine, however, it strongly warns against drunkeness because of the mischeviousness and dependency that seems to follow it.

since the christian roman empire on emporers and dictators have claimed to chanel gods word and what has it always done? that is why church and law must remain seperate. if not it just s to lots of people being killed.

btw, alcohol consumes far more lives than cocaine. i would question whomever claimed that they got that word from god.

I'd suggest that people only die in that scenario when people are misusing God's word.

Yes, alcohol does destroy more lives, which is why the Bible generally suggests to avoid alcohol altogether. If you choose to drink in moderation it is acceptable, but if drunkeness entails, which is what leads to problems, there is trouble and it is considered sin. Where alcohol is better than drugs (that is, of course, bad drugs) is that it (especially wine) does have some health benefits in moderation.
That said, a thought of mine on that subject is that we do not know when God considers us drunk, so it is wise to avoid it altogether.

Cocaine never good and that is why it is always wrong.

Originally posted by Nellinator
I'd suggest that people only die in that scenario when people are misusing God's word.

i think nobody should "use" gods word at all, but rather choose to or not to folow it. when gods law directly governs through a minority of people its historically and very probably a dangerous level of influence over the populous. most people who claim to be religiously persecuted tend to follow religions which leave loopholes for just this thing except on the scale of life and death as opposed to hurt feelings...in fact most religions. nowhere in the bible did it say that god would choose to chanel his word to the people through anyone at all, but rather on a personal level. 100% intimite, one on one and nothing more. to claim to hold power beyond that is imho blasphemy unless its christ himself.

as for the rest the bible only condemns being a drunk. nothing about getting good and buzzed. thats the reason for alcohol in the first place. what, you think the apostles just liked the taste?

:edit: it seems to forbid being drunk beyond your wits and/or being an alcoholic. like maybe god is cool with a couple of glasses of wine, but not cool with a beer bong.

Follower of Paul got drunk otherwise he wouldn't of told them to please eat something before he came to visit. They were sooooo drunk..

drunk

Originally posted by PVS
i think nobody should "use" gods word at all, but rather choose to or not to folow it. when gods law directly governs through a minority of people its historically and very probably a dangerous level of influence over the populous. most people who claim to be religiously persecuted tend to follow religions which leave loopholes for just this thing except on the scale of life and death as opposed to hurt feelings...in fact most religions. nowhere in the bible did it say that god would choose to chanel his word to the people through anyone at all, but rather on a personal level. 100% intimite, one on one and nothing more. to claim to hold power beyond that is imho blasphemy unless its christ himself.

as for the rest the bible only condemns being a drunk. nothing about getting good and buzzed. thats the reason for alcohol in the first place. what, you think the apostles just liked the taste?

:edit: it seems to forbid being drunk beyond your wits and/or being an alcoholic. like maybe god is cool with a couple of glasses of wine, but not cool with a beer bong.

Are you studying what the Bible says about drinking or something?