Originally posted by Strangelove
As much as I like Clinton, she'd never go for that. If I were her, I'd be kind of pissed off, being VP to the young upstartObama for VP is the best bet.
No. Clinton needs to understand (what I think) is the best for the party. Shes a powerful force to ignore, but I'll be upset if she gets the nomination.
Clinton (imo) can't WIN a national election. Regardless of how entitled she is to get the nomination. It would be better for her to use the VP office as a stepping stone to NATIONAL, not Democratic popularity.
NATIONAL popularity is something Obama has/can gain. THAT wins elections much easier.
Originally posted by Alliance
No. Clinton needs to understand (what I think) is the best for the party. Shes a powerful force to ignore, but I'll be upset if she gets the nomination.Clinton (imo) can't WIN a national election. Regardless of how entitled she is to get the nomination. It would be better for her to use the VP office as a stepping stone to NATIONAL, not Democratic popularity.
NATIONAL popularity is something Obama has/can gain. THAT wins elections much easier.
Yeah popularity does win elections I remember voting that way in highschool and those folks wielded crazy power!
Obama needs to learn more.
Originally posted by AllianceThat's a valid argument. And here's my counterargument.
No. Clinton needs to understand (what I think) is the best for the party. Shes a powerful force to ignore, but I'll be upset if she gets the nomination.Clinton (imo) can't WIN a national election. Regardless of how entitled she is to get the nomination. It would be better for her to use the VP office as a stepping stone to NATIONAL, not Democratic popularity.
NATIONAL popularity is something Obama has/can gain. THAT wins elections much easier.
What has been whispered through the grapevine is true: Obama doesn't have the clout to win a national election. His charisma and popularity can help him throughout the primaries, sure. But eventually, the issues will come up. And lack of experience or a track record with hurt him. And I certainly don't accuse him of not trying. His work on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee has been astounding, and he has a genuine interest in what's good for the American people.
My argument for Obama for VP is identical to your argument for Clinton for VP. But somehow I think Clinton for President has more validity. She has experience, she has the political clout, and she knows how to win elections (Obama has never won a difficult one). Vice President would be a fantastic stepping stone for Obama. And he's still young(ish). Being a VP would do nothing but good for Obama and nothing but bad for Clinton. Clinton is already qualified. Obama has to prove that he can get qualified within the next two years.
Because of the anti-Republican sentiment, I have no doubt that Obama would win were he to win the nomination. However, I'm not sure it would be the right choice.
Originally posted by Strangelove
That's a valid argument. And here's my counterargument.What has been whispered through the grapevine is true: Obama doesn't have the clout to win a national election. His charisma and popularity can help him throughout the primaries, sure. But eventually, the issues will come up. And lack of experience or a track record with hurt him. And I certainly don't accuse him of not trying. His work on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee has been astounding, and he has a genuine interest in what's good for the American people.
My argument for Obama for VP is identical to your argument for Clinton for VP. But somehow I think Clinton for President has more validity. She has experience, she has the political clout, and she knows how to win elections (Obama has never won a difficult one). Vice President would be a fantastic stepping stone for Obama. And he's still young(ish). Being a VP would do nothing but good for Obama and nothing but bad for Clinton. Clinton is already qualified. Obama has to prove that he can get qualified within the next two years.
Because of the anti-Republican sentiment, I have no doubt that Obama would win were he to win the nomination. However, I'm not sure it would be the right choice.
Well said Strangelove
He annouced his running this morning, pretty exciting really.
Did I mention how much I am in love with OBAMA? 💃
Originally posted by Strangelove
That's a valid argument. And here's my counterargument.What has been whispered through the grapevine is true: Obama doesn't have the clout to win a national election. His charisma and popularity can help him throughout the primaries, sure. But eventually, the issues will come up. And lack of experience or a track record with hurt him. And I certainly don't accuse him of not trying. His work on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee has been astounding, and he has a genuine interest in what's good for the American people.
My argument for Obama for VP is identical to your argument for Clinton for VP. But somehow I think Clinton for President has more validity. She has experience, she has the political clout, and she knows how to win elections (Obama has never won a difficult one). Vice President would be a fantastic stepping stone for Obama. And he's still young(ish). Being a VP would do nothing but good for Obama and nothing but bad for Clinton. Clinton is already qualified. Obama has to prove that he can get qualified within the next two years.
Because of the anti-Republican sentiment, I have no doubt that Obama would win were he to win the nomination. However, I'm not sure it would be the right choice.
I agree that Obama's lack of experience is a weak point, and that his strongest battle is to win the nomination.
However, look at the Obama and Clinton speeches today:
Clinton's was all about the failure of the Bush administraion and the right-wing republican conspiracy.
Obama's was about vision. He didn't mention Bush once.
I think one clearly resonates more with voters. People are sick of politics, OBAMA is the only candidate from a new generation. He can offer Americans a break from traditional politics. That can resonate more than anyhting Clinton can pull out. He has a real background in being an American, in working with real people as a community activist, as a civil rights lawyer, and as a professor.
Look what Obama has done in two years. Think what he can do in two more.
VP might be a great stepping stone for antoher politician, but OBAMA is a visionary and a leader. (Clinton is neither) You don't put visionaries and leaders in support roles.
Clinton may have more credientials, but OBAMA is more qualified to be President. His vison, ability to relate, and personality are his qualifications. Clinton has none of those imo.
it's an Obamanation!
Originally posted by AllianceAgain, Vice President would do nothing but good for Obama and nothing but bad for Clinton. 4 or 8 years as Vice President would give Obama the critical national experience that he currently lacks, and his vision and leadership need not be dampened by the fact that he's only the second most powerful person in the nation. Vision alone does not a President make
I agree that Obama's lack of experience is a weak point, and that his strongest battle is to win the nomination.However, look at the Obama and Clinton speeches today:
Clinton's was all about the failure of the Bush administraion and the right-wing republican conspiracy.
Obama's was about vision. He didn't mention Bush once.
I think one clearly resonates more with voters. People are sick of politics, OBAMA is the only candidate from a new generation. He can offer Americans a break from traditional politics. That can resonate more than anyhting Clinton can pull out. He has a real background in being an American, in working with real people as a community activist, as a civil rights lawyer, and as a professor.
Look what Obama has done in two years. Think what he can do in two more.
VP might be a great stepping stone for antoher politician, but OBAMA is a visionary and a leader. (Clinton is neither) You don't put visionaries and leaders in support roles.
Clinton may have more credientials, but OBAMA is more qualified to be President. His vison, ability to relate, and personality are his qualifications. Clinton has none of those imo.
Obama did not mention Bush in his candidacy or failed policy and 'was all about vision' because that's part of his platform. A departure from politics-as-usual. Yes, it's a good thing. But criticism of Bush and his policies are also a good thing. Bush may very well be the worst President in the history of the US.
And where do you get the assumption that Clinton isn't a leader?
I personally think that your love for Obama has blinded you to the truth of this. His 'rock star' status, as it's been called, will only take him so far. Then he needs to get serious. And while I have no doubts that he is capable of it, Clinton is already there, and Obama has to play catch-up.
Listen. Regardless of whether Clinton wins the nomination and chooses Obama as a running mate or vice versa (assuming that that's the way it goes), it's pretty awe-inspiring that have a Woman-Black Presidential ticket that not only can win, but probably will, no?
Originally posted by Strangelove
Again, Vice President would do nothing but good for Obama and nothing but bad for Clinton. 4 or 8 years as Vice President would give Obama the critical national experience that he currently lacks, and his vision and leadership need not be dampened by the fact that he's only the second most powerful person in the nation. Vision alone does not a President make
You're looking it as if Obama is just another candidate, like a Kucinich. Its incredibly disproportionate to have an ideological and powerful VP and a stiff and dry president. Vision alone does not make a president, but Clinton does not have the vision to become president.
Originally posted by Strangelove
Obama did not mention Bush in his candidacy or failed policy and 'was all about vision' because that's part of his platform. A departure from politics-as-usual. Yes, it's a good thing. But criticism of Bush and his policies are also a good thing. Bush may very well be the worst President in the history of the US.
Well, I was unaware that Bush was running in the democratic primary. Two thirds of Americans don't like Bush. Bush bashing doesn't tell any democrats something they don't know. It a statement about what each candidate values. Clinton will wrap herself in Republican-hating politics as usual. Obama tries to supersede that. No one from the Bush administration is running. The Republican record can completely speak for itself, at least for the Democratic primaries.
Originally posted by Strangelove
And where do you get the assumption that Clinton isn't a leader?
Why do you think she is? Obama is a charismatic orator who can move people. I think Clinton is intelligent and a brilliant politician, but she's never moved me. Obama has for years and he's getting damn proficient at it.
Originally posted by Strangelove
I personally think that your love for Obama has blinded you to the truth of this. His 'rock star' status, as it's been called, will only take him so far. Then he needs to get serious. And while I have no doubts that he is capable of it, Clinton is already there, and Obama has to play catch-up.
As for my personal love....he is my Senator and from my area. He has been on my radar much longer than he has been on the national one. My friends have worked on his campaigns (I have not yet had the pleasure, i was out of state on the Kerry campaign) and have met with him personally. Please don't assume that my support of him is not sincere or based on his current popularity.
I think Obama is well aware he has to catch up. But I really think he can. Clinton hasn't been to New Hampshire sin '92 until today. Obama is going on Tuesday (i believe). Clinton is ahead in the polls and in cash, but Obama can move voters quickly. He can move up in the primary polls and then take the lead. (Remember Dean's domination and Kerry?)
Obama's speech today was markedly different. He started professing policy, but it seems like he's going to run a different type of campaign.
Originally posted by Strangelove
Listen. Regardless of whether Clinton wins the nomination and chooses Obama as a running mate or vice versa (assuming that that's the way it goes), it's pretty awe-inspiring that have a Woman-Black Presidential ticket that not only can win, but probably will, no?
I don't know about probably. I don't support Clinton because I don't think she can win the election. I don't think Obama has enough power in the VP role to compensate. Clinton has a image issue with the American public. Obama is a clean slate.
Thats why I think CLinton would be best as VP. She needs the stepping stone, not because she lacks a resume, but she needs to redefine her image in the American public beyond what a campaign can give her.
And yes, a black/woman ticket is an amazing concept. Just a black ticket or a female ticket is amazing as it is.
Rather than responding to you point-by-point, which would take forever, I'm just going to say this.
I didn't mean that you were blinded by Obama's popularity. I was saying that that fact that you like him is keeping you from seeing the writing on the wall. Obama has an uphill battle ahead of him. Regardless of his charisma and vision, he is behind by about 20 points in Democratic polls. And I seriously doubt that and Republicans are seriously talking about voting for him.
Yes, Clinton has an image problem. The problem is that she is indicative with the 'problems' of her husband's administration. The problem is all of the slander she endured while first lady.
a) she's a qualified and trustworthy politician
b) she may have been stiff and dry once, but in the past 6-odd years, she's worked on that. Not being from New York, you don't know that.
c) she can win elections. She campaigned hard when Bill was elected and re-elected. Obama has never had a tough election where he's come out on top.
So far the only problems I've heard about Clinton running is the 'fact' that "she can't win the election because no one likes her" Bullshit. She wouldn't be considered the Democratic frontrunner by a sizable margin if no one liked her.
Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo😂
Funny/sad:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo-tI97bvNk&NR
Go Iraq Hussien Osama!
Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Funny/sad:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo-tI97bvNk&NR
Go Iraq Hussien Osama!
I don't know whether to be mildly amused or deeply disturbed (though I'm leaning towards the latter)
Originally posted by Strangelove
Regardless of his charisma and vision, he is behind by about 20 points in Democratic polls. And I seriously doubt that and Republicans are seriously talking about voting for him.
You forget that those same polls said that 44% of voters didn't know enough about Obama to have an opinion on him.
You'll also remember that Kerry was very behind in polls, even only a week before the NH and Iowa caucuses. As Obama campaigns, his #s will rise.
Originally posted by Strangelove
[B]she can win elections. She campaigned hard when Bill was elected and re-elected. Obama has never had a tough election where he's come out on top.She wouldn't be considered the Democratic frontrunner by a sizable margin if no one liked her.
Clinton can win among Democrats. I have no question of that. I question whether or not she could win a national campaign. Why? I don't think she can carry swing voters. I don't think its Bill thats holding Hillary back. A recent poll gave Bill a 60% approval rating. Only Laura Bush had a higher positive public perception (the poll was favorable opinions of public figures). Clinton, to me, is politics as usual.
Rumsfeld and Cheny had stellar resumes. We all saw how meaningful "credentials" are. Thats not to say that qualified candidates should be ignored, but we should be looking at more.
Obama has vision and he can motivate people. Hillary's "let the conversation begin" speech, to me, was dry, corny, and forced. Obama is an electric candidate. He may be a wild card compared to the politics as norm Clinton, but he's still, at least at this point, an ace...and one I feel comfortable playing.
As in past campaigns, I will put my money and time where my mouth is.
Originally posted by Alliance
Obama has vision and he can motivate people. Hillary's "let the conversation begin" speech, to me, was dry, corny, and forced. Obama is an electric candidate. He may be a wild card compared to the politics as norm Clinton, but he's still, at least at this point, an ace...and one I feel comfortable playing.
What do you think of the possibility of the two of them running on the same ticket?
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Hmm...
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