Why do people think music's subjective?

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
What is your argument? Music can be qualitatively assessed, but we can't do it?

This is the part where I say..."some of you don't understand this concept because you're probably think truth is subjective"

Then you say..."WHAT? That's ridiculous. Truth IS subjective!"

And then I say..."You're dead wrong. And that's why you can't even understand why I'm able to say I like certain music but then state that it's in fact bad. It's cause it is. That's the truth"

Then you say..."You're an idiot"

Then I don't say "no, you're an idiot", but instead I say "maybe you just aren't able to grasp why it's true that the Backstreet Boys suck. Not all of us are good at doing that. If we were, they wouldn't have sold millions of records."

Then you realize I have a point but immediately discard it from your mind and go back to posting pretty much the same variation of your argument again.

...WOW, I just saved us all like 10 posts!

Here's a thought....we'll see if you get it.

There's a lot of music out there that's just crap...and a big reason for this is because there are tons of artists out there that think exactly the same way some of you do....And if they like the music they've made...then who's to say it's not good...right? Who's to say? Huh?

I write music all the time. I'll come up with a tune one morning, and I'll be totally into it for the rest of the day, but then I'll say... "even though I kinda like this, it's just not that good. It sounds kinds contrived or whatever". Maybe I'll keep it, or maybe I'll chuck it.

Now I have no problems with people recording whatever music they want, and it's fine to like your own music and want to share that with others, but don't think for a second that just because you like something you wrote that it's actually good...

...And as a result, we get freakin' Nickleback. 😆

A band who haven't the foggiest idea of how bad their music IN FACT is. And RIGHT HERE is where people get sensitive about subjectivity...and say "if I like Nickleback, then that means I'm listening too bad music. Well that can't be, I'm smarter than that!"

Who cares. Join the club. That's fine.

But...again...I'm sure some of you don't undertand what's being said here.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Then you say..."WHAT? That's ridiculous. Truth IS subjective!"

No, that proves that you don't read a word anybody says.

The truth is not subjective, fact is truth, therefore...taste is not objective, as it's not true that one piece of music is factually better than another.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
There's a lot of music out there that's just crap...and a big reason for this is because there are tons of artists out there that think exactly the same way some of you do....And if they like the music they've made...then who's to say it's not good...right? Who's to say? Huh?

Anyone has the right to say it's not good, but that would be their opinion, just like the guy who wrote it would have the opinion that it's good.

It's all about opinion.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Now I have no problems with people recording whatever music they want, and it's fine to like your own music and want to share that with others, but don't think for a second that just because you like something you wrote that it's actually good...

Who the f*ck is saying that liking something makes it definitely, factually good? Nobody. I'm saying that me liking it means it's good to me, not to everyone else. If I listen to a song, or make something myself and think or say "This is really good!", I'm not saying that factually, I'm not saying it in a way that forces my opinion on you, because I cannot do that. I factually cannot, like you cannot.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
...And as a result, we get freakin' Nickleback. 😆

I think Nickleback are shit, so do you, but neither of us are factually correct, just like Nickleback aren't factually correct for saying their own music is good.

It's good to them, shit to us. It's SUBJECTIVE. What part of this are you not getting?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
A band who haven't the foggiest idea of how bad their music IN FACT is. And RIGHT HERE is where people get sensitive about subjectivity...and say "if I like Nickleback, then that means I'm listening too bad music. Well that can't be, I'm smarter than that!"

People who admit they listen to bad music are idiots. Nobody listens to music they hate or dislike, everybody likes the music they continually listen to or they wouldn't listen to it. It defies sense and logic to suggest absolutely anything else.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Who cares. Join the club. That's fine.

But...again...I'm sure some of you don't undertand what's being said here.

You're a fool with a very stupid argument, one that is undeniably false and wrong, yet you keep pushing it because you're an idiot.

-AC

You are all over the place!!! 😆

Almost every point you made in that last post didn't have any bearing on what I said.

Of course TASTE is subjective. Of course nobody listens to music they HATE. What are you on about? Are you joking?

People like what they like...and that's fine in every way.

But I think it's possible to like something that's TRULY crap.

You don't. You don't even get the concept...and I've even explained why you don't get the concept, but you don't get that either.

That's where we differ.

Don't complicate things any more than that.

In essence what you're saying is, I couldn't make bad music even if I wanted to. I guarantee that if I put my mind to it, I could make music so bad that NOBODY in the world would like...in fact, it would make people cover their ears and run away. I really think I could make music that is TRULY bad if I tried.

With your logic though, there's no way I could..."becasue there is no good or bad...uuuuuuuuuuuh. It's all a matter of taste...yeah"

And with that, I'm off...

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
But I think it's possible to like something that's TRULY crap.

From what perspective though? It's possible for people to listen to music that I think is utter crap, but that doesn't factually mean the music itself is utter crap. It just means I think it is.

It doesn't mean it's good cos they like it, it means they think it is.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
You don't. You don't even get the concept...and I've even explained why you don't get the concept, but you don't get that either.

Stop telling me I don't get it, I get everything you're saying, you just don't make any sense and you ignore everything that is being said.

I do believe it's possible, but not factually. I think Lily Allen is utter crap, but you don't, do you? It's crap to me, not to you.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
In essence what you're saying is, I couldn't even make bad music if I wanted to. i guarantee that if I put my mind to it, that I could make music that NOBODY in the world would like...in fact, it would make people cover their ears or run away.

You can't make a guarantee that covers many billions of people. The sheer audacity of that claim is sickening.

And no, that's not what I'm saying. You may write a song you end up hating, but that doesn't mean it's bad to everyone.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I think I could make music that's TRULY bad if I tried. With your logic, there's no way I could..."becasue there is no good or bad...uuuuuuuuuuuh"

For crying out loud.

THERE IS NO OBJECTIVE good or bad, there is only SUBJECTIVE good and bad.

THAT is what I'm saying. You could make music that you thought was truly bad, I'm sure. You could make music that lots of people hated, but you cannot guarantee everybody would, because it's subjective.

-AC

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
You're right. Maybe I should be embarassed because I'm belaboring a point and making a complete mockery of my very own argument, and could be leading people that already aren't getting it into thinking it's totally ridiculous.

Wait a sec...who cares. It's fun as hell!

Oh, I get it...You're being embarrassing because you're embarrassing. Nice. Funny. Sofistamakated.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Speaking of embarassing...

Good one Ya Krunk'd!

And I'm not laughing at you for syaing what you just did. I think it's cool. But in the context of your "embarrasing" comment it's pretty darn funny.

What I posted there really is a fact. No doubt about it, so don't speak; you know what I'm saying.

How does one prove - as in factually prove - that something is crap?

They don't, hence the point.

-AC

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
What I posted there really is a fact. No doubt about it, so don't speak; you know what I'm saying.

Originally posted by Lana
How does one prove - as in factually prove - that something is crap?

BTW, I checked out your stuff 'casue your sig looked cool.

You say you're a "self-proclaimed genius"...do you know what most people would say to that?

But hey, for all I know you might very well be. I think your stuff absolutely rocks btw, but I honetsly don't know enough or have a good enough grasp on what is good or bad visual art to suggest whether or not you are a genius.

But I got no problems with you thinking you are...and maybe you're smart enough and talented enough to know that it's true.

Keep up the good work.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I don't claim to know that...but it's funny how you know stuff is crap, isn't it?

BTW, I checked out your stuff 'casue your sig looked cool.

You say you're a "self-proclaimed genius"...do you know what most people would say to that?

But hey, for all I know you might very well be. I think your stuff absolutely rocks btw, but I honetsly don't know enough or have a good enough grasp on what is good or bad visual art to suggest whether or not you are a genius.

But I got no problems with you thinking you are...and maybe you're smart enough and talented enough to know that it's true.

Keep up the good work.

Grow a pair, that's my advice to you.

She doesn't know what is FACTUALLY CRAP, she knows what she thinks is crap. WHAT PART OF THAT are you not understanding?

Seriously. Tell me what you are finding so hard to grasp.

-AC

Originally posted by Lana
How does one prove - as in factually prove - that something is crap?

Compare color and smell. If it stinks and is brown, well...you know.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Grow a pair, that's my advice to you.

She doesn't know what is FACTUALLY CRAP, she knows what she thinks is crap. WHAT PART OF THAT are you not understanding?

She's probably seen hundreds of pieces of art that she thinks are crap, that actually ARE crap. But like myself, she probably couldn't prove it to you...but just because you can't prove something to be true doesn't mean it's not true in reality. I don't think that concept makes sense to you...that's why you keep arguing the same point..."just cause you THINK so, doesn't mean...blah blah bah"

I get your point dude...it's not that deep. She might not KNOW it's crap, as in she's got evidence that points to truth in knowledge...but...she knows.

Maybe this statement will make things easier on you...

- I can't PROVE that Brittney Spears is factually crap, and I don't KNOW that she is crap, I just THINK she's crap...but...she IS CRAP!

Originally posted by BackFire
Compare color and smell. If it stinks and is brown, well...you know.

Hahaha! Brilliant!

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Maybe this statement will make things easier on you...

- I can't PROVE that Brittney Spears is factually crap, and I don't KNOW that she is crap, I just THINK she's crap...but...she IS CRAP!

You're like a retarded goldfish with no eyes. Fact.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
...I don't understand why it bothers you so much that I disagree with you about things not being objectively good or bad. You think they aren't, I think they are. Gimme a break. What she thinks is crap, might in fact be crap...and that's regardless of her opinion.

You are quite an amazing idiot.

You think something can be 'crap', in spite of opinion?

Define 'crap', then. At least have some basis for what you are saying.

Define 'crap', and then apply the criteria to a piece of music, in a way that no-one's opinion can refute.

Or, just keep posting the same point and claiming no-one gets it.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES

- I can't PROVE that Brittney Spears is factually crap, and I don't KNOW that she is crap, I just THINK she's crap...but...she IS CRAP!

Hahahahaha. I get it. You're just pretending to be single-celled.

You really know that that is the most impressively faecal comment of all time, and you are trying to entertain us all.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
What she thinks is crap, might in fact be crap...and that's regardless of her opinion.

Nothing pertaining to art can be factual or "in fact", because there's no means by which to measure it. It was never intended for you to critique, given it's a piece of personal expression. You can't hold a public opinion in higher regard than personal conviction, just because more people believe it to be so.

She's probably seen hundreds of pieces of art that she thinks are crap, that actually ARE crap. But like myself, she probably couldn't prove it to you...but just because you can't prove something to be true doesn't mean it's not true in reality. I don't think that concept makes sense to you...that's why you keep arguing the same point..."just cause you THINK so, doesn't mean...blah blah bah"

You can't prove an opinion pertaining to something that epitomizes subjectivity, simple as that. It doesn't make any sense, because it can't be done. Perception can't reflect a collective reality. If that were the case, it wouldn't be a perception, now would it? You're just incredible naive to think you can prove an opinion, singular or collective/popular.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I don't claim to know that...but it's funny how you know stuff is crap, isn't it?

BTW, I checked out your stuff 'casue your sig looked cool.

You say you're a "self-proclaimed genius"...do you know what most people would say to that?

But hey, for all I know you might very well be. I think your stuff absolutely rocks btw, but I honetsly don't know enough or have a good enough grasp on what is good or bad visual art to suggest whether or not you are a genius.

But I got no problems with you thinking you are...and maybe you're smart enough and talented enough to know that it's true.

Keep up the good work.

Right, here we go.

Okay. You say you don't know how to prove it, but it's true. How do you expect anyone to take you seriously?

I don't claim to know that something is crap. I think a lot of things are, but does that make it so? No, because that's my opinion. Opinion.

There is no such thing as good or bad visual art. There can be things that many people think to be good, and things that many people think to be bad - but that does not make the good good and the bad bad. It just means that that's the widely held opinion on something.

Now, there is a such thing as technical skill, and this CAN be measured. However, someone can master all the techniques and be incredibly skilled...and this STILL wouldn't necessarily make them a good artist or musicisian or what have you. You can have all the skill and talent in the world, but people can still dislike what you make. But that doesn't make you crap, nor does it make you good just because you have the skill. Just because someone looks at or listens to something and goes "Oh, that's garbage" or "Oh, that's great" does not make it factually so, because that is simply nothing but their opinion.

Now, if you want to prove something to be true, you need to provide cold, hard evidence. And a hell of a lot of it. Opinions are not evidence, they are opinion. Technical still could be evidence, but as everyone knows, being skilled does not necessarily mean you will create something that everyone will think to be good. So unless you can provide this evidence - and actual evidence; opinion polls and top 10 lists are nothing but opinions and prove nothing - you cannot prove anything to be fact.

Seriously. Take a look at science and how hard it is for something to be declared fact there. And take note of the fact that it's always with the caveat that even though evidence has shown this to be true, there is still a small chance that it might not be.

Oh, and the self-proclaimed genius thing? That's been there as long as I've been on the site. Friend of mine set that years ago and I left it because I found it amusing. Doesn't necessarily mean a damn thing.

You cannot prove that something is shit, public opinion is the best way of determining how good art is. But - Britney Spears doesn't write her own songs thus she isn't an artist.

She still crafted her voice, and singing is art. I mean, even if she moans to mimic a whore, that's art. It's an expression.