Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
I'm not going to respond to everything you said - just a few things -
Wolverine was a raging animal the first time he fought Elektra that's
why she kicked him from one roof top to the otherShe doesn't have the skills of DP, Chi, Cap, or Wolverine - never has
and never will. IF you don't know that, you don't know the character
and are just a clueless fanboy. The Marve website clearly outlines her
abilities being olympic athlete level. I'm sure there are comics you
think state otherwise, but considering you don't even know that
Apocalypse amped up Logan, I wouldn't take your interpretation over the
ACCURATE Marvel website. You also claim all sorts of things that are
untrue - you read into things constantly and have extremely poor logic.
Most of the people I've ran into on these forums agree with me that
Logan is both faster and stronger than Elektra, but you insist that she
outclasses him.In case you haven't noticed - comic book characters sometimes venture
beyond their abilities. Elektra once turned herself invisible - yet she
clearly has no regular power to do so. Never has and never will. It was
a one time thing from what I understand - not like she actually has the
invisibility power to use on and off. Yet she did it. Also - didn't
she have trouble fighting Silver Samurai?Also, most of the times Elektra fought Logan - Logan was written
incorrectly.There are plenty of people on this board who would disagree that
Elektra is on the top of the marvel universe regarding H2H. I mean, you
put her on a higher level than DP but there's no real evidence for
that. Go ahead and show it. Please show her displaying greater skill
than Cap or BP.
I'm not even talking about when he was still unable to think or speak
like a man, I'm talking about after his meditation, underwhich she
STILL kicked him from one side of a rooftop to the other.
LMAO, I love how you started this debate by telling me that I don't
know anything about Elektra or Wolverine. yet it's you who defers to
handbooks, the MU database, and an argument via ad-populem to try and
prove your ridiculous points. Wow.... just sad.
Those handbooks and websites that you seem to love so much are
continuously proven wrong. For god sakes, the original marvel database
defected into a wiki page because the people writing the bios for
characters on them were less versed on the characters in question than
some of the fans who were reading them.
You think Wolverine was amped up as Death? It's a common misconception as far as I'm concerned, for as to my knowledge no known upgrades were EVER given to the man aside from tech, and Adamantium bones. Every feat of speed, durability, and strength he had as death as been matched and/or surpassed by himself without being Death.
He was never stated to have physical upgrades, by Apoc, OR narrative, Wovlerine himself stated that Apoc only made him embrace what he already was, and even your "official" books that you seem to hold in such high regard, failed to state that he had anything more than a friggin cloaking device.... Upgraded huh?
Lol, the only trouble SS gave Elektra was his armor. Too damned durable for her old sais to punture through. Aside from that, and one Silver Samurai cheap shot, she dominated that fight completely.
You really do make me laugh, DP above Elektra in sheer skill? Rofl!
Yeah okay...
As I said before, I really don't know what kind of "proof" you want me to post, it's already been made clear that you blatently disegard what you don't like, I'm not going to waiste my time. Guess you'll just have to wait for me to finish her respect thread. It'll be the one right after I finish posting up the new Wolverine respect thread.. you know.. the OTHER character I know nothing about.... 🙄
Simple fact though.. you love handbooks, and their being so "official"
They state Elektra to be a level 7 in fight capacity, the SAME tier as Wolverine, and Cap, and a tier above the likes of classic IF or DP... 😐
Lol, those "official stats" even state the only advantages Wolverine has over Elektra in terms of physicality is strength and durability. Which only supports what I said earlier.
Originally posted by jinzin
I'm not even talking about when he was still unable to think or speak
like a man, I'm talking about after his meditation, underwhich she
STILL kicked him from one side of a rooftop to the other.LMAO, I love how you started this debate by telling me that I don't
know anything about Elektra or Wolverine. yet it's you who defers to
handbooks, the MU database, and an argument via ad-populem to try and
prove your ridiculous points. Wow.... just sad.Those handbooks and websites that you seem to love so much are
continuously proven wrong. For god sakes, the original marvel database
defected into a wiki page because the people writing the bios for
characters on them were less versed on the characters in question than
some of the fans who were reading them.You think Wolverine was amped up as Death? It's a common misconception as far as I'm concerned, for as to my knowledge no known upgrades were EVER given to the man aside from tech, and Adamantium bones. Every feat of speed, durability, and strength he had as death as been matched and/or surpassed by himself without being Death.
He was never stated to have physical upgrades, by Apoc, OR narrative, Wovlerine himself stated that Apoc only made him embrace what he already was, and even your "official" books that you seem to hold in such high regard, failed to state that he had anything more than a friggin cloaking device.... Upgraded huh?Lol, the only trouble SS gave Elektra was his armor. Too damned durable for her old sais to punture through. Aside from that, and one Silver Samurai cheap shot, she dominated that fight completely.
You really do make me laugh, DP above Elektra in sheer skill? Rofl!
Yeah okay...
As I said before, I really don't know what kind of "proof" you want me to post, it's already been made clear that you blatently disegard what you don't like, I'm not going to waiste my time. Guess you'll just have to wait for me to finish her respect thread. It'll be the one right after I finish posting up the new Wolverine respect thread.. you know.. the OTHER character I know nothing about.... 🙄Simple fact though.. you love handbooks, and their being so "official"
They state Elektra to be a level 7 in fight capacity, the SAME tier as Wolverine, and Cap, and a tier above the likes of classic IF or DP... 😐Lol, those "official stats" even state the only advantages Wolverine has over Elektra in terms of physicality is strength and durability. Which only supports what I said earlier.
good post
💃
Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
If she was coasting in neutral, why did she have to attack him when
he was busy fighting SHIELD agents? Scared of confrontation is she?
Also, Wolverine never used any martial arts during the entire run, so
it's complete garbage and should be disregarded. When someone who knows Wolverine writes her as superior, I'll be more inclined to believe it. You mentioned the fight under Hamma. The whole point was to bring Logan back from an animalistic state. Once he remembered himself, he out-classed her in skill. That much is clear.
Wolverine was shocked with her speed...he wasn't shocked, he just
commented on her speed. There's a difference. Also, he ran away scared of her. Wolverine isn't scared of anyone. And where the hell is his training in this? Virtually non-existent and replaced with cheap
gadgets. He was, in fact, made to look like a nobody. That was Millar's
point the whole run.
O.M.G.... I'm not even sure which part of this lunacy I need address
first. Okay, as far as the EOTS fight, there's TONS of reasons why
Elektra would wait for an open moment to drop Logan, scared of a
confrontation isn't one of them. Hell, for someone who wants to tell me
what I do and don't know about the characters I debate, your ignorance
remains unquestionable when it comes to Elektra. She's one of the most
calm-faced fearless combatants in the MU..
Perhaps, she waited because it was flat out easier and less risky.
Perhaps, she waited because those poor bastards might screw up her
pace, get in her way, be used against her somehow.
Perhaps, she was waiting to see what Logan was capable of, taking into
account any new Hand/Hydra additions.
Fear of a confrontation is simply not one of the reasons, and there's
not ONE DAMNED THING about her entire comic book history that states
otherwise. There ARE, however, 4 comic book fights where she readily
toe to toes with Logan aside from that one and isn't just waiting for
the right moment.
Lol, and the Hamma fight, she owned him there from one side of the roof to the other. Wolverine “checkmated” her because of the EXACT reasons I stated earlier. He’s durable enough and his HF strong enough that he can take everything Elektra can dish out long enough to draw her into a losing scenario. If he was more skilled than E, one would be inclined to believe he would have or could have done something about all those boots to the face, or at the very least, sheathed that sword, before she literally walked all over him…
Now, unless Wolverine has recently gone religious on us "jeezus she's
fast" seems to be a clear indication of exclamation... and it wasn't a
positive one. You can't rationalize that he was surprised/impressed/
(and simply) shocked by how fast she was.
And god damn.... do I need to explain EVERYTHING to you 3 times over or
just the important parts? It’s not that he ran way scared… He wasn’t scared at all.
Wolverine wasn't in good condition 5 minutes before the fight started.
It's safe to assume that he was still in bad condition when Elektra jumped him, handling a level 7 at Elektra’s level wouldn’t be easy for Wolverine at the top of his game, nevermind when he has to get up fighting minutes after being on life support.
Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
Yeah, other than sources that outright say Cap is one of Marvel's top
fighters. lol. The Marvel website calls Elektra a superb h2h combatant.
It says that Cap is one of earth's finest and that Wolverine is also
among the elite. Not one word of this about Elektra. Now, I can believe
she's good, maybe ONE Of the best, but definitely not the best. Ogun
was better than Wolverine the first time they fought and yet Wolverine
still beat him by going berserk. Your ridiculous statements that Logan
remembered more of his training after House of M are completely bunk
and unsupported. You're just making it up. Show me one shred of
evidence that he remembered better fighting techniques afterward. I
mean, something that clearly states this not just some strange
interpretation based on his fight with Lord Shingen. Wolverine was
clearly affected by being shot the second time he fought Shingen. In
case you didn't notice - he was struggling with the wound when Mariko
placed that thing around him. Whether it was some sort of symbol or not
is neither here nor there since he clearly shows signs of being
affected by it. There's no indication that Wolverine fought any better
after House of M. He didn't do any better against Creed, for example.
Just the same.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If you've ever seen a fight between to martial artists you'd know the majority of the fight, isn't actually fighting, but two guys circling each other; they both want to find an opening and the hit the other guy without getting hit themselves (because one good punch can end a fight). There is no place for that style of combat with Wolverine and Sabretooth, both of them have no need for any sort of defence and concentrate wholly of offensive without it being detrimental. It's not the speed of the combatants that renders any martial arts obsolete, rather the breakneck pace of the battle. It's full out, balls to the wall, combat in close quarters with no breaks and no chances for the other guy to take his breath.When Wolverine and Sabretooth go into a berserker rage, they become prefect killing machines, two forces of nature that act on pure instinct with no conscious thought. In such a state martial arts becomes obsolete because they have achieved what every martial art strives for.
A quote from the Dark Tower... I think it applies here.
"They are killers by an instinct that needs no honing."
Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
I see how this works. Whenever Elektra is shown to be weaker than her
opponent, it's uncharacteristic and wrong but when Logan is flat out
written terribly, it's evidence of Elektra's superiority.
No, you clearly don’t see how this works if you’re still struggling to comprehend what makes majority and consistency in showings important when discussing comic book debates.
The thing with Bullseye and Elektra is contradicted not only by website bios, and handbook bios stating Elektra’s superiority in skill level to him, but ALSO by not one but THREE contradicting comic book careers.
When it comes to Elektra and Bullseye: She almost killed him in their first fight. He got the drop on her, attacked from behind in the dark and he still hit him with the back end of her sai 2 or 3 moves into the battle. Were it only the front end… well..
Even the h2h fight that continued from there was far from over when Bullseye decided to opt for his specialty in throwing. Up to that point Elektra was more than holding her own against him.
In their second fight, Bullseye had countless hours of videos and notes on Elektra and her fighting style, given to him by the Hand that trained her. He trained for months to specifically fight her, and in spite of that, once she got past her CIS of him she clobbered him in 3 hits to a KO.
DD has beaten Bullseye almost every time they’ve met with a few exceptions that have NOTHING to do with h2h.
And Bullseye’s own separate record is littered with losses to people like Punisher, American Eagle, and Crossbones all 1on1s.
There’s Absolutely NOTHING about Bullseye’s, E’s or DD’s careers that even comes CLOSE to supporting the idea that he could take on both E and DD at the same time…
Wolverine having problems with skilled combatants though?
Shingen? Check.
Cap? Check.
Punisher? Major Check.
Yeah he beats em all but it’s not because he’s vastly so much more skilled than them they can’t compete. Rather that he can take it and take it and take it. Making their skill worthless. E giving Wolverine all hell is not him being “written terribly” in spite of what your one sided fanboyism may want to believe.
Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
You don't have the first clue when talking about Wolverine. That much
is clear.
And you wanna talk about what other board members have to say?
I’ve got about an entire forum of people who may object to THAT…
Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
As I said before Ogun was arguably BETTER than stick who was
much more skilled than Cap at the time. Yet, Wolverine did fairly well
the first time they fought and flat out beat him the second time. So
you do the math - Logan beat Stick's contemporary. Elektra was trained
by Stick and I don't think she ever surpassed him. If she did, I would
like to see scans or be given an issue reference. So anyway, if Logan
can beat someone more skilled than Elektra's trainer, he can certainly
beat Elektra. ESPECIALLY if he's berserk. She would just get shredded.
Daken is a joke character made by a joke writer.
Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
Daniel Way has been writing Wolverine for two years, and he still doesn't have a clue. All Logan does under Way is get beat up by Fury - it doesn't matter if this
is House of M because Logan had his training from Ogun - he failed to
detect bombs despite his enhanced sense. lol. He fought and still
fights by leaping forward growling with his claws extended. Try and
find anything by Claremont that shows him fighting this way when
Berserk. You might find ONE example, but under Way you will find
twenty. Just moronic. Also why does he need some stupid sword when he
has six of the planet's sharpest blades in his forearms? Stupid. And
Way's been told it's dumb because he's dropped it from Origins.His characterization of Logan is bunk. He has Wolverine say dumb stuff
like "he's the best there is at what we do". Logan doesn't talk like
this and never would. Even if he was brainwashed lol. Even if Daken was
somehow better, Logan wouldn't say something like that. It's just not
him. Also, like I said before Daken's got this strange ability to
mystically appear where his opponent isn't looking. Yeah, uhuh. Watch,
when the editor makes Way come up with a better explanation, he will
probably steal an idea of this board. He's that lame. He doesn't bother
with continuity at all. Tries to force his personal version of the
character where it doesn't even come close to fitting. He also lies
about what the each issue entails. He claimed that there was going to
be a battle-royal between Logan and Omega Red yet all we got is the two
falling through the street.
Where Claremont’s concerned, you’re full of it. I can think of a handful of examples right off the top of my head.
In Uncanny 272 Wolverine’s compared to Psylocke side by side flat out stating that while she’s using speed, finesse, and skill, Wolverine’s more akin to a “wrecking ball, but no less effective”… and this was at a time his HF was nearly worthless thanks to the reavers, so he had ALL the reason to use his skill and NO reason not to.
In X-Men under Claremont’s pen, Wolverine used the jump/scream/&slash method in his first real fight against the Acolytes. Was doing it against Cameron Hodge, against Omega Red, and against Magneto too…
There’s plenty where Logan’s skills are not showcased through words or artistic representation. That doesn’t mean we’re to discard them or state he’s not using his skill..
Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
She was trying to bring out the skilled "man" in Logan while he was the
beast. Once he regained his humanity, he out-classed her in skill and
caused her to walk into a checkmate. It wasn't a real fight since
Elektra was trying to bring Logan back. Stick did the same thing, and
once figured out what was going on, Stick could no longer land shots.
It was still the same character. Logan was still 120 years old and he
was still Samurai trained. So losing to Fury is still retarded.
Where did you read it was 2000? It doesn't matter anyway, because the
point is Logan doesn't panic. If he's going to lose, he's going to do
it calmly and without whining to Elektra. The fact that you don't know
this proves you don't really understand the character of Logan.
It was stated before he went after them. And he wasn’t whining.. He was clearly hell bent on attacking the hand, DID it, was continuing to do it when he walked up to Elektra, and showed no signs of slowing down when she joined him. As she said, he was enjoying it.
”There’s way too many” stands as nothing more than worthless banter that he didn’t even really believe anyways.
Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
What comparisons? The first one, Logan out-classed her in skill once he
became human again. During Milllar's run, Logan wasn't himself. In
fact, Millar's run was the sole reason I came with the name "The Real
Wolverine". Was Redeemer even in continuity? If it was, the author -
who's name escapes me at present - was way off with the Logan's
characterization. But what can you expect - the only person I've ever
seen write Logan accurately was Chris Claremont. Even Hama failed a
couple of times. Aaron came close but was ultimately wrong on a lot of
things. Anyway, writers have come close. Look at how Logan performed
during "blood sport" He was pretty much portrayed among the elite of
Marvel right then and there. Anyway, when he's written correctly, he
fights with all limbs doing something separate. Each limb is
independent and his movements are fluid and complex. When people like
Way and Millar write him. He kicks like a Karate instructor and leaps
into the are screaming "raaarr" making himself vulnerable to judo
holds. So far from an accurate understanding of Logan, it's pathetic.
😂
I didn’t know the “Elite of Marvel” included the likes of Zaran, the Cat, and gulp… the TOAD!
The Elite of Marvel.. lmao…
Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
I've never seen an official Marvel biography wildly inaccurate. Marvel
owns the characters so what they say they can do is the most accurate.
Regardless of what a few misguided authors write, Elektra is, according
to Marvel, peak human in speed, strength and reflexes. You, however,
need to brush up on your understanding of Wolverine. You have a
tendency to interpret certain issues that we've both read in a
nonsensical way that baffles me.
You’re right, Marvel DOES own the characters.
And you’re right, what they say those characters, can do is the most accurate.
And Marvel, who makes comics, that have to go through Marvel editors who make those decisions (the same editors for handbooks) for what characters can and can’t do, have made the decision to have Elektra Wolverine’s SUPERIOR on FOUR separate occasions… Wow, way to own yourself.
Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
Logan has had a machine gun pointed at him from three feet away, and
then backflipped out of the path of fire. I'd say that's a much more
impressive feat of speed than simply blocking bullets. Heck, that seems
pretty average.
Yes we all know using acrobatics to avoid gunfire is MONUMENTALLY impressive, almost no one does this sort of thing at all in comics..
Blocking bullets from machine gun fire from a few feet away with something that has half an inch in diameter to block with though.. well I’d hardly be surprised if Aunt May couldn’t do that.. dead or alive. 🙄
Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
Wolverine's done things he had no business doing many many times.
Elektra has no business throwing a moose around because she simply
lacks the physical strength to do so. Wolverine throwing 1000 pounds
threw a wall with one hand is equally as impressive as throwing a moose
with one hand. But it makes sense with him, since he was a HF to make
him super strong and an unbreakable Skeleton. However, if Elektra does
it well...it's just like when Batman hit Hulk hard enough to hurt him.
It's bullshit and is written by fanboys for fanboys.There should at least be a logical explanation telling us why Elektra
went from Olympic level to Wolverine-like strength. Without it, you're
left with the nonsense of pis writing. Just like if Wolverine were to
mysteriously KO Apocalypse at full strength. Based on nothing can you
say that a win like that for Logan would be accurate. Yet, if a writer
choses to, he can cause such a thing to happen. Doesn't make it
accurate. That's why we have Biographies and handbooks - so writers can
get it right now and again.
Now here’s what I love most. According to you:
When it comes to Wolverine’s skill level, he’s the best of the best from the MU websites themselves. But he can’t decisively beat an elderly man who doesn’t have near the training nor the lifespan Logan does under your favorite writer Claremont, yet it makes no sense for someone else with those same facts in their corner to give Wolverine trouble.
When it comes to bullets Tieri, has no clue how to write Wolverine. When it comes to skill, Wolverine’s the friggin MAN under Tieri’s pen! And why not? He got second place in a tournement with badasses like Zaran, Puma, and the Toad, in a tourney with WWF style matches where you don’t even have to beat your opponent to win, under the gaze of Nsync members, Chris Kirkpatrick, and Justin Timberlake, Now that’s ELITE! 😱
But Tieri has no idea how to write Logan’s healing factor because the only time it’s ever been uber has been before his Adamantium skeleton in spite of multiple low showings for his HF (“hey different writers have different interpretations”, so F*CK consistency!) and why? Well Millar wrote it uber during WWII.
Except?
Millar’s work is totally ignorant of Wolverine, and his capabilities, and is in no way how he should be written, AND should be totally disregarded. He has no idea how to write Logan’s SKILLZ, Only Claremont can do that, as he doesn’t write Logan bumbling around in jump and slash mode… I mean it’s not like he’s done that with logan multiple times or hell.. Even Cap… K
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/1248/capsaveqv8.jpg
Oh… and Way sucks…
I think that sums it up…
It’s hilarious, how in spite of your continuous trash talk to my poor logic, your poor rationale has just owned yourself in the very thing that started us in this debate. If Wolverine’s HF was so uber before the Adamantium addition why are all his feats so low? The ONE suitable, impressive example you had of his HF as uber was under Millars pen. One which by your own very logic states is okay to completely disregard…. Good job chump.. ermm I mean “champ” 😉
P.S.
Maybe I’ll go pick up some comics so I can learn something about this Wolverine guy… LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Originally posted by Badabing
😖Okay, I don't know what troubles me more. Getting warned by J for spamming uhuh or Jinzin arguing against Wolverine? 😑
This madness has to stop....NOW! KMC has always been a place where things never change and now my World has turned upside-down. 🙁 durfist
😛
Cowboy up Bada! 😠
On the matter of Elektra > Wolverine, I'd just like to say that Wolverine does have poor track record against female combatants, especially female combatants he has a history with... who aren't robots. He never seems to go 100% when fight women, he really doesn't like it IMO. I think if Elektra was a dude her fights with Wolverine would have played out different.
She is certainly on par with Wolverine skillwise, whether or not she is superior is certainly debatable.
I honestly don't need the amount of space you took to refute the major points of your argument. Where to begin...
1: You state that Wolverine wasn't scared of Elektra, yet he was anxious for the explosion to occur because he clearly feared what would happen if she had more time with him. Even if Wolverine goes down, he takes it like a man and doesn't whimper. Besides, the way Millar had Logan's healing factor all amped up, it's not like Elektra could have done permanent damage. What was he so afraid of? Also, he was clearly running away from her. What part of Elektra chasing Wolverine and yelling "you think a locked door will save you?" doesn't make Logan look like a total chicken shit? Wolverine doesn't run away from ANYONE. That's part of the reason he's called Wolverine, btw. Also, the earth is round in case you haven't figured that out yet.
2. You state that Wolverine wasn't affected by the bullet that he was shot with moments before his second fight with Shingen. Then why did Yukio wrap him up? Yeah..she hates Mariko, yet she cuts a piece of her garment off to wrap up Logan for absolutely NO REASON? It's like here, where the symbol of the woman I am jealous of just for no reason at all. Or could it be that she was dressing his wound? That makes much more sense you have to admitt. He was on the ground after being shot and he looked like he was hurting. Also - he stated during the fight how bad he was hurt but that no quarter would be asked when fighting Shingen. This is back when Logan took over a day to heal sword cuts and the like, so I imagine, he'd still be hurting from the bullet. It's only consistent with the character at the time. You could interpret otherwise, but...you know..it's kinda obvious.
3. I just finished reading Wolverine 103 - you stated that Wolverine had regained his humanity after meditation. Ummm..is that why he pounded on the door he was locked in like a wild animal right AFTER he meditated? Is that why he growled and stumbled over basic human speech right up until the last panel when he finally regained enough of his human mind to use skill against Elektra? Don't come back till you've learned to read and interpret properly, please.
4. You stated that there is no evidence that Wolverine was suped-up by Apoc even Logan himself states that the reason he went all-out on Creed was that he didn't know if an ENHANCED Creed could be stopped. This means that Apoc's plan for DEATH the whole time was to give him enhancements. Also, did you know that 2+2=4? Pretty simple math, dude. Also, he never did that well against Hulk before - this time he nearly killed him and only let up because he fought his brainwashing.
5. You stated that Frank Tieri's understanding of Wolverine was accurate regarding healing factor - even though he had rarely, if ever shown such resistance to bullets before his run. Also, Greg Rucka had Logan downed by a single clip from an AK47 right after Tieri's run. Also, Logan's character was just a bit off..he used claws against an unarmed opponent when we know he'd much rather use his fists in this case. Also, do you remember the Tourni included some top tier fighters such as Mr.X who defeated Task Master rather easily. It's one thing to be able to read your opponents moves, it's another entirely to be able to execute against an opponent of such skill. Both Task and X are clearly up there in terms of skill. The rest I agree were just lamo fighters but that's neither here nor there since Logan ended up beating X. X only won based on a technicality and would have died if it had not been for Blok.
6. You stated that Logan remembers more of his training and thus has better fighting skills since House of M. Prove it. Just show one single scan showing that he has better fighting skills now. NOT better tactician or some memory of a battle or something, but actual ninjetsu, throw-em down fighting skills. He did better against Shingen the last time because he didn't have anything slowing him down - this is also BEFORE he regained the piece of his soul that makes him faster, and a better fighter than before the Gorgan killed him.
7. Out of the four times Wolverine and Elektra have been compared, Logan has been his full self only ONCE. The time under Millar, he had been missing the piece of his soul that makes him faster and more skilled don't forget. As far as being impressed by Elektra's speed - he was also impressed by Black Panther's speed - oh and also by the piece of his soul he had been missing since the Gorgon killed him. So of course, he's going to be impressed with her speed since a really fast, really skilled part of his soul is missing. Don't ask me, I didn't write it. The first time they fought, as I proved above, he was still a mindless animal right up until the last page of the book.
8. I'm not arguing that Elektra isn't Logan's equal in terms of skill - just that she isn't his superior and no writer who understands Wolverine would write her as such. You can't tell me that under Millar Wolverine was written properly when he displayed NO fighting skills, no finesse, no grace, etc. I mean, for Christ sakes, he fell backwards onto a sword. Yep, sounds like Logan to me. lol.
Oh, and I already admitted that I was being arrogant when I said he could take her down in three moves.
9. You stated that Logan wasn't whining when fighting the ninja's. Then why did Elektra tell him to stop whining? Why does she come off as more experienced, when clearly he has had four times the experience? Why does he yell out "there's too damn many" when throughout the entirety of his history we see a to hell with the odds attitude - I'm gonna win or I'm gonna die attitude? Millar didn't write him correctly and that's a blatant fact. Why do you think Guggenheim cleaned up his nefarious mess when he said that Logan was missing a crucial, skilled and fast piece of his soul the whole time? I mean, Jesus, dude, Logan's kicks were laughable the whole damned time. It was a complete joke!
10. You said that Daniel Way writes Wolverine in a Claremont fashion. Okay I agree...if Claremont was beaten repeatedly with a brick for maybe half an hour. lol - let me point out a difference to you. When Cap was leaping through the air - he was doing so with skill, and grace. When Daniel Way has Logan leaping through the air, he crashed through a class door and hurt himself. LOL. Gimme a freakin' break. Claremont also had Logan downed by Storm during a training session followed by Bishop gaining the upper hand on him during a fight with boken. From this we can deduce that Storm is Logan's superior?? ha! More like Logan was being arrogant and careless and it showed. You see how context plays an important role?
That's enough for now - if I think of more things you said that I can refute, I'll bring them up later.
1. Again, he wasn't scared of Elektra, he was already at a point of disadvantage and he HAD to run given the fact that the Hand and Hydra were dictating his actions so your ranting there is completely irrelevant. Of course Elektra would never do permanent damage to Wolverine, and there was no statement, no INSINUATION even to suggest otherwise, but Wolverine's HF WAS already taxed out, and it probably wouldn't take TOO much to tax it further. Also I fail to see how Wolverine looked like a "chicken shit" when he's ripping sharks apart two panels later. Actually the earth isn't really round, just roundish, but the atmosphere makes it look round.. 😉
2. Yukio did that for two simple reasons, the first to humiliate Mariko, and the second to steal her spotlight. Why would she dress the wound? She was already fully aware of Wolverine's HF, and already aw him heal from wounds that far exceeded that of a single bullet. Wolverine was hurt DURING the fight BY SHINGEN which he stated. He never once paid any mind to the bullet, not once. Hell! When he was shot he didn't even let out a grunt or an "arg", nothing but I'm supposed to believe that ONE bullet hindered him so much that he had to repeatedly use his forearms to block blades and get stabbed? YEAH RIGHT! A bullet shouldn't have mattered to Wolverine even BEFORE he was written to have a healing factor. This was the guy who took a Hulk bodyslam with NO effect, took 2 blasts from firelord with no effect, took a blast from the Shiar guard with no effect. This is the same Wolverine who was healing from all the damage he took during that Brood episode, under the very same writer, an arc that stood as one of his most impressive pre-bone HF feats.. Hell Claremont clearly thinks that Wolverine can deal with more than a bullet since he had him being shot, stabbed, and attacked by 100 pirates with no effect, and has written that Wolverine takes damage that would kill dozens of men. One bullet did not effect him THAT greatly. I'd also like to point out thatr you're owning yourself with your own arguments again; If Wolverine was SO depleted by having half his soul taken from him wouldn't he have an equally hard time with Shingen? Yet he only took one graze to the eye unlike the first fight.
3. Uh no, Wolverine was pounding on the door BEFORE he meditated, Afterwards he was fine, he was remembering parts of his past at least, he was capable of speaking in full sentences, and he even stated that it was "the man" who was in control when Elektra was kicking him all over the place. And please are you about to argue for even an instant that Wolverine doesn't growl when he IS in his right mind? haHA!
4. Creed was enhanced... He had an Adamantium skeleton that he had never had before.. thus.. enhanced. Notice how that's the only thing that Sabretooth boasts about, notice that the Adamantium is the only thing that's repeatedly brought up and it's not as if Wolverine wouldn't notice if Sabretooth was stronger, faster etc, since he did just that after Sabretooth WAS enhanced in those areas by Weapon X.. You want to attack speculation yet you do nothing but speculate.
Wolverine "nearly killed" the Hulk because the Hulk literally plunged his neck into Wolverine's claws on accident. Wolverine has multiple good showings against the Hulk so I'm not sure what the hell you're talking about there.
5. Now you're just being stupid or stubborn. Wolverine has TONS of feats just walking through bullets paying them no attention whatsoever. The number of feats where Wolverine fairs well against bullets far exceeds the opposite especially after Fatal Attractions. Wolverine has been resistant to gunfire since MCP's Weapon X story when he slaughtered all their guardsmen. During his bone claw episode he ran head on into Adamantium tipped exploding bullets. Right after his got his Admanantium back, he took machine gun fire from over 100 armed men with virtually no effect. You complaining about Wolverine handling bullets so well is simply put: Asinine. As for the tourny, Wolverine never fought Tasky, and X couldn't deal when his telepathy was nullified.
6. I'll ask again, when's the last time he gave someone like Cap a bloodclot in a fight?
And again Shingen: he was shot by a bullet on one occasion, he was missing half his soul on another. He did better missing half his soul than he did with a single bullet wound that happened minutes before, that didn't even warrant a grunt. Wow. 😐
7. 😂
You wanted to go over remedial math, and at first I wondered what for, now I see it's just so you can have all the practice you can get. Wolverne has actually been his full self (for certain) TWICE, not including issue 103. Nice work. 😉
All Azrael said about Wolverine missing half his soul was that it made him weak. We don't know that Wolverine was slower, or less skilled, and if he was that only supports the Shingen argument, owning yourself again.
Also, being physically hindered doesn't change your ability to register someone ELSES speed. 😐
What? Are you incapible of driving the speed limit every time you hurt your leg? Absurd.
8. Well your wrong abour her not being superior when she's been depicted so on panel 100% of the time they've fought. Wolverine fell backwards onto a sword because his mind control got whacked silly, not because he lacked any skill, lol yeah Millar totally displayed Wolverine as being a skill-less numbskull...
What was that you said about how Wolverine's skills should be written?
Oh yes...
Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
Anyway, when he's written correctly, he fights with all limbs doing something separate. Each limb is independent and his movements are fluid and complex. When people like Way and Millar write him. He kicks like a Karate instructor and leaps into the are screaming "raaarr" making himself vulnerable to judo holds.
Which is kinda funny because.....
Yeah.. hitting 3 guys at once.. what a totally skilless idiot. 🙄
9. Elektra ALSO invalidated that Wolverine was actually whining as he was enjoyin himself so once again irrelevant. Guggenheim never wrote that Wolverine was slower, or less skilled, simply weaker.
I don't quite remember Wolverine really using kicks too much during Millars run, but wouldn't that be the fault of the artist and not necessarily the writer if they look goofy? 😕
10. Lol, I didn't know there was a difference in "skill" when one jumps in the air spread eagle arms out ahead.. lmao.
Wolverine had the door opened while he was going after DP, we was also getting ticked off by DP as Wade was pushing his buttons so that's hardly an accurate representation of what you claimed.
Lol, Wolverine being beaten by Bishop and Storm in a sword fight only sounds like it's your hero Claremont who doesn't know how to write Wolverine. At least Elektra's been training since childhood to be the Worlds greatest assassin, at least she's had 3 supernatural teachers. Yet you think it's okay for both storm and Bish to get an upperhand on Logan in a kendo match, especially when it's Logan that tought storm how to fight? What happened to "Wolverine's like a bajillion times more experienced blah blah blah"... looks like again, the only thing that matters to you involving Wolverine is your on bias. tsk tsk.
Now, I understand completely how context plays a role, which is why I ALSO understand that Logan wasn't whining, that Logan's fight with Elektra is inconsequential, and that Logan tripping over a body onto a sword has nothing to do with skill or the lacktherof. But how can I expect someone to understand this when he's still practicing remedial math?
oh well.
The only thing you've been "refuting" is your own arguments.. 😬
The point is, you're basically arguing that the earth is flat. You're coming up with these wild assumptions coupled with poor logic and even worse reading comprehension. Wolverine flat out said something to the effect of "That explosion better happen soon, or I'm toast". Why would Wolverine be scared of dying even if his HF was reduced to a relative crawl? Also - he healed immediately from being stabbed in the neck and shoulders by Elektra - something that would take some considerable time if Logan's HF had been taxed significantly which it wasn't.
This is a difference of interpretation - I'm trying to interpret the comic within itself and within relevant issues that occurred only two years later. Logan displayed far greater skills against Ogun (even though he lost the first match and had to run away) than he did against Shingen during their second fight. I personally favor the understanding that single bullet held him back as his HF wasn't nearly what it was during the start of Wolverine Volume II.
I fail to understand why you insist upon coming up with excuses for Logan is written differently by different writers. You are constantly making stuff up and reading into things that aren't there to try and explain away what can be simply chalked up as a difference of opinion and interpretation among Marvel writers. Example? You constantly claim that Wolverine's brainwashing hindered his abilities during EOTS, yet, Millar never stated this and it WAS NOT his intention to have that be the case. Even if in some issue in some other series, some other writer tried to explain the way Wolverine was acting away, you still have to deal with the fact that Millar had no intentions of the brainwashing affecting his fighting abilities. Plus, he fought exactly the same after his brainwashing came undone which refutes your whole point entirely. Just stop acting as if this universe is real and accept the fact that different writers understand things differently. Hence why, during one arc Logan is invisible to bullets, and the other he is downed by fire from an AK47. I honestly am trying to be reasonable with you on this. I'm not going to continue this debate for long if you continue to ignore LOGIC and simple reasoning.
When Wolverine is written properly, he is AT LEAST equal to Elektra regarding skill if not superior. His feats speak for themselves. What's the best she's done? Has she ever beaten Shang Chi with ease? What about Cap has she ever beaten him? Black Panther? Beating Task Master, or anyone for that matter, can be chalked up to her telepathic ability. Seriously though, stop pretending this universe is real and understand that different writers see things differently. No reason to make up that Logan remembers more of his training or anything like that.
Dude...look I have the issue right in front of me, and he gets locked in the room AFTER he meditates. Just go read the issue yourself if you don't believe me. Besides, if you read their final fight, he continues to battle against the beast the WHOLE time. Right up until the end. Just go read it and you will see what I mean. Honestly, it's the only valid interpretation you can walk away with.
I don't speculate at all - the issue clearly states that Aopc's plans for Death were to give him enhancements. Therefore, since Apoc WAS planning to enhance Creed, he would have enhanced Logan as Death. Or did he change his mind at the last minute? It's like..oh yeah..I WAS going to enhance Death but instead I've decided not to as Logan is, after all, the best there is at what he does. I've enhanced everyone I've ever experimented on before but not this time - because Logan's the best baby! ummm....no man...he enhanced Logan too. It's basic comprehension. Honestly, I'm not trying to be mean, but it's painfully obvious to those with adequate reading comprehension skills. Then again, maybe you're just dishonest.
There are plenty of times that Logan has been SLOWED down by bullets. The Yakuza hurt him during Hama's first run, don't forget. He has a limit to how much damage he can take from gunfire under writers that know him best. Having him take as much gunfire as you stated is stupid and illogical since his muscles would be ripped to pieces from gunfire. Also, in case you've forgotten, he was downed by a few gunmen during Jason Aaron's most recent run. And please, don't say it's because his HF was depleted due to a lack of food because that would just be making things up again. There is NO evidence that he was anymore hungry on this mission than any other when his HF was written to insane degrees. Again, you insist on finding excuses for what's obviously a difference of opinion among Marvel writers.
That can all be explained by a difference of opinion yet again. Millar had Wolverine take all kinds of hits when he fought the Hand, for instance, yet Guggenheim had him fighting tons of armed opponents without taking hits at all. It's just a different understanding of the character is all. Saying that the reason is he remembered more of his fighting is as conspiratorial as claiming that the spirit of Jean Grey was helping him during the last fight with Shingen. There's just no evidence for it. Also, he's demonstrated similar level of skills than what he displayed against Cap before House of M. Causing a blood clot really isn't that hard for someone who's mastered even just a few martial arts. Not sure why would assume he couldn't do this before when fifteen years ago, he was skilled enough to throw a sword through the hull of an airplane in flight and hit the pilot in the neck.
Are you talking about The Redeemer? Because that was written by Greg Rucka who had Logan downed by a single clip from a machine gun. Again, different interpretation of the character. Rucka's version displayed less skill and more pure aggression when fighting than say Guggenheim's version. If Guggenheim had written a story featuring a fight between Elektra and Wolverine, you can believe for certain that the fight would end up differently than how Rucka portrayed it. Guggenheim's version
All Azrael said about Wolverine missing half his soul was that it made him weak. We don't know that Wolverine was slower, or less skilled, and if he was that only supports the Shingen argument, owning yourself again.
Also, being physically hindered doesn't change your ability to register someone ELSES speed. 😐
What? Are you incapible of driving the speed limit every time you hurt your leg? Absurd.
Ummm...Logan lost a piece of his soul that had the "Gorgon"s speed and moved like the hand". So yeah...I think a logical interpretation of that is he actually lost the Gorgon's speed and ability to move like the hand. And when he got his soul back, every bit that was Shogun returned to him. So he COULD have, but not for certain gained the speed of the Gorgon and the ability to move like the Hand.
Am I? Heck, even according to your argument, Wolverine now remembers more of his training so yeah...he has the skills to thrash her now. lol. :-p. Oh, I'm being sarcastic by the way. Wolverine and Elektra have NEVER fought under the pen of someone who actually understood Wolverine. Making any victories she has over him a moot point regarding their skill comparisons. Besides, even you have to admit Greg Rucka doesn't get Logan. Or is he vulnerable to bullets after all. Can't have it both ways now.
She told him to quite whining and focus - there was never a negation of the fact that she came off as being experienced, and he came off as being the "rookie". It was just a very poor play by Miller. Also, Logan never again fought like he did during the first issue that he fought the Hand ninja's.
Let's see. Cap leaps through the air and takes out like five swords with his shielf while fighting like seven ninja's. This is all while he's leaping through the air. The move was obviously done with a great deal of skill. Whether Logan was berserk or not, it doesn't nullfiy the fact that he doesn't fight the way that Daniel Way potrays him. If he's going to leap through the air, he could at least make it look good. Besides, Logan couldn't have been that mad - he let some 40 year old woman punch him in the mouth just moments later. lol.
