Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
The point is, you're basically arguing that the earth is flat. You're coming up with these wild assumptions coupled with poor logic and even worse reading comprehension. Wolverine flat out said something to the effect of "That explosion better happen soon, or I'm toast". Why would Wolverine be scared of dying even if his HF was reduced to a relative crawl? Also - he healed immediately from being stabbed in the neck and shoulders by Elektra - something that would take some considerable time if Logan's HF had been taxed significantly which it wasn't.
The only thing I've speculated about thus far has been that Wolverine's fighting ability increased a bit since HOM. And it's not as if that isn't supported.
Wolverine wasn't scared of dying, he wasn't even scared. the Wolverine part of him that was in control wanted to be stopped, the hand/hydra part wanted him out of there because he was that damned valuable to them. It has nothing to do with Wolverine being scared of death whatsoever and everything to do with the hand needing their puppet.
His HF was taxed, it is not up for debate...
"On enough drugs to tranquilize the Hulk"
"You healing factor was pushed to the limit"...
TAXED 😐
Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
This is a difference of interpretation - I'm trying to interpret the comic within itself and within relevant issues that occurred only two years later. Logan displayed far greater skills against Ogun (even though he lost the first match and had to run away) than he did against Shingen during their second fight. I personally favor the understanding that single bullet held him back as his HF wasn't nearly what it was during the start of Wolverine Volume II.
How did he display far geater skills? He got beat from one side of the city to the other and had to rabbit, he only did better when he berserkered out. Which is something altogether different than regular ol' Logan.
You "personally favor"... which IS speculation as no such reasoning was EVER given to explain that away as such.
Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
I fail to understand why you insist upon coming up with excuses for Logan is written differently by different writers. You are constantly making stuff up and reading into things that aren't there to try and explain away what can be simply chalked up as a difference of opinion and interpretation among Marvel writers. Example? You constantly claim that Wolverine's brainwashing hindered his abilities during EOTS, yet, Millar never stated this and it WAS NOT his intention to have that be the case.
You fail at a lot of things, but these are not exuses, they are reasons, which is why context and canon are important factors when discussing any fictionalized character.
I haven't made anything up or read into anything that wasn't already there.
Wolverine was brainwashed to the point that he was doing what other influences were telling him to do, and he was STILL fighting the brainwashing as much as he could. It's common sense that something like that would hinder performance. It's like trying not to do what your coach in the corner is telling you to do because you really don't want to win, it doesn't HELP performance. Later in Guggenhiems title Wolverine flat out states "don't remember much of it, wasn't in my right mind at the time." One can infer from there that Logan was clearly not himself thusly would not fight completely akin to how he would free of the mind control.
Those are all facts and no one has to read into anything but the words on the pages to know that.
Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
Even if in some issue in some other series, some other writer tried to explain the way Wolverine was acting away, you still have to deal with the fact that Millar had no intentions of the brainwashing affecting his fighting abilities.
Which doesn't coincide with Wolverine fighting the brainwashing.
Having three people telling you what to do would be distracting enough. Having yourself fighting their conditioning would be worse. He was clearly effected in fighting ability.
The fact is, that YOU have to deal with the fact that in spite of different series, different story arcs, different mini series', one shots, and even guest appearances, or writers, that EVERYTHING these characters go through becomes part of their history, becomes part of what they can and can't do. It becomes part of their CANON, which can be influenced to change their histroy in any part of their career. It may have been the intention of Hulk writers to say that Wolverine couldn't penetrate his skin but that got RETCONNED.. perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the term.
It may or may not have been Millars intention but what was stated in his issues and issues thereafter effect that "intention" regarless.
Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
Plus, he fought exactly the same after his brainwashing came undone which refutes your whole point entirely.
He killed 200 supervillains on a hellicarrier without taking any real damage, didn't have one bruise to show for it. Same with 2,000 members of the Hand, hell his uniform hadn't even been damaged at all in that fight. When he fought Gorgon he was so obviously using skill it's not funny, able to dodge when Elektra couldn't . Scoring first and second blood on the guy and even stating that he was matching Gorgon's skills (who was obviously an uber villain). So no, nothing after his brainwashing in Millars arc refutes anything about my argument, it supports it.
While brainwashed he had problems with DD.
Without it, he scored killing blows on a guy who no-sold Elektra..
Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
Just stop acting as if this universe is real and accept the fact that different writers understand things differently. Hence why, during one arc Logan is invisible to bullets, and the other he is downed by fire from an AK47. I honestly am trying to be reasonable with you on this. I'm not going to continue this debate for long if you continue to ignore LOGIC and simple reasoning.
I already said that different writers of course have different interpretations hence the "No SHIT!" when I agreed with it before... but that once again doesn't mean that CANON timelines as with 616 are automatically to be discarded. They aren't. Between interpretations are highs and lows we on KMC use both to find a happy medium for what the character can most likely, and consistently do.
That's why consistency, canon, and retcons are sooooo so important, sure Wolverine may just take bullets on some occasions like nothing, sometimes he gets downed by a machine gun. But when you have writers who explain that his HF is influenced by food and sleep, and/or adrenaline levels we the reader now have a way to reason why he has such low showings without having to resort to "I don't like it, it didn't happen" which is what you're all too familiar with.... I'm not ignoring logic, I'm not ignoring anything. You on the otherhand however, already admitted to disregarding what you don't like... 😬
Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
When Wolverine is written properly, he is AT LEAST equal to Elektra regarding skill if not superior. His feats speak for themselves. What's the best she's done? Has she ever beaten Shang Chi with ease? What about Cap has she ever beaten him? Black Panther? Beating Task Master, or anyone for that matter, can be chalked up to her telepathic ability. Seriously though, stop pretending this universe is real and understand that different writers see things differently. No reason to make up that Logan remembers more of his training or anything like that.
Yeah equal in skill. Sure. Your handbooks support that too. But that doesn't mean that he's going to take care of Elektra when she still has better feats of speed, and telepathic abilites.
I infered it from existing evidence. At any rate I already stated that it was speculation.
Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
Dude...look I have the issue right in front of me, and he gets locked in the room AFTER he meditates. Just go read the issue yourself if you don't believe me. Besides, if you read their final fight, he continues to battle against the beast the WHOLE time. Right up until the end. Just go read it and you will see what I mean. Honestly, it's the only valid interpretation you can walk away with.
Funny, my lie'n eyes got me believin that he was meditatin AFTER being locked up... 😐
In their final fight he starts getting his ass kicked as soon as he allows the "Man, the complex thinker" to take control of the fight, and then gets beaten from one part of the roof to the next.
