THe LT vs. Micheal the Arc Angel

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I disagree
TOAA = Marvel Company > All in Marvel even HOTU
Presence = DC COmpany > all in DC

LT = SPectre, the only hint to this is the DC vs Marvel Crossover.

If we can't find one solution we should stop to argue about that all, we shouldn't compare both Universes at all, peace is always better then "flamewars". I don't mind good discussions, logic (real life logic, like considering the Company intent behind it all). The best one can do is GUESS when he compares one cosmic being to another, the Crossover help a bit but they don't give an final answer.

SO lets just agree to disagree and stop further insults 😉.

Cheers

I'm off it. The winner is the one who stays friendly, BTW where is Guy22 😉.

I agree. Respect is given. I respect everyone in this thread. I admire Living Tribunal. Its simply hard to find a winner. Based on my knowledge, Living Tribunal does win.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Let her be ... She still can't understand the SciFi thing, it's too advanced for her.
Unless a wizard did it, she's a mouse in a mouse-trap.

Did you think that all up by your self? Bravo! I must admit I am impressed by your impressive knowledge and understanding of all things scientific!

Do I disrespect you? I didn't think I was, but apparently so.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Did you think that all up by your self? Bravo! I must admit I am impressed by your impressive knowledge and understanding of all things scientific!

Do I disrespect you? I didn't think I was, but apparently so.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
But ...

rofl

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Well Yewhew is not the company that's for sure, since he isn't supreme.

Non-canon ...

When it's check mate it's check mate, huh?

Since the one that's actually winning the debate in scans ect. isnt you?
Now you change the rules to the one that's the friendliest one is the winner?
Stop playing Mxy ...

Yewhew is not the Presence, maybe an Avatar but not the Presence AFAIK.

Non-Canon but still the only thing we have 😉, and a lot of the people on this board seem t accpet LT = Spectre.

Checkmate? I don't think so more like an patt.

Ok the scans show the winner right, show me a scan that shows LT beating Michael, show me the scan that says that the DCU has the same build as the Marvel U (Universe=Universe, Multiverse=Multiverse), show me the scan that say that DCU is a Multiverse, and not an SplitupUniverse called the Multiverse (as defined in the CotIE). Show me the scan that say that the DCU that we know is a part of an Megaverse or Omniverse. Show me the scan that says that the 2nd most powerful being in the Marvel Universe is more powerful then the Second or third most powerful being in the DCU. Show me the scan that shows that the IG gauntlet has power in the DCU 😉.

You can't and never will, all scans shown will give you just the impression where each being stands in his/her/its respective universe but it says nothing how well it would fare in another companies universe. And this leaves you with just one thing, speculations. You can't find a winner there.

Cosmic feats are the most impossible to compare if you don't have an common ground or similar cosmologies in the universes. You can compare heroes better but only because they play with things known to us and the companies, so they can give them more "similar" feats. Each one of us knows what a ton is, lifting it shows how strong a heroe is. But honestly, a Multiverse omniverse, different dimensions, this all is based on theories, speculations, comics are no science, radiation of the red sun? The same as gamma radiation turning you into the hulk. The string theory bringing new dimensions into play is still a theory, an Marvel or DC writer reads about it and fits it into his universe, it stays still a theory, another writer might prefer different theories, they will still be n00bs in those fields and everything they come with is just fantasy.

DC =Sci-Fi-Fantasy
Marvel= Sci-Fi-Fantasy
Both = Comics and not Reality....

So no new rules here, since there are no scans to show a 100% winner and before people start getting on each other throats it's best to say, kindness wins, let's agree to disagree and be cool with it😉.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Yewhew is not the Presence, maybe an Avatar but not the Presence AFAIK.

Non-Canon but still the only thing we have 😉, and a lot of the people on this board seem t accpet LT = Spectre.

Checkmate? I don't think so more like an patt.

Ok the scans show the winner right, show me a scan that shows LT beating Michael, show me the scan that says that the DCU has the same build as the Marvel U (Universe=Universe, Multiverse=Multiverse), show me the scan that say that DCU is a Multiverse, and not an SplitupUniverse called the Multiverse (as defined in the CotIE). Show me the scan that say that the DCU that we know is a part of an Megaverse or Omniverse. Show me the scan that says that the 2nd most powerful being in the Marvel Universe is more powerful then the Second or third most powerful being in the DCU. Show me the scan that shows that the IG gauntlet has power in the DCU 😉.

You can't and never will, all scans shown will give you just the impression where each being stands in his/her/its respective universe but it says nothing how well it would fare in another companies universe. And this leaves you with just one thing, speculations. You can't find a winner there.

Cosmic feats are the most impossible to compare if you don't have an common ground or similar cosmologies in the universes. You can compare heroes better but only because they play with things known to us and the companies, so they can give them more "similar" feats. Each one of us knows what a ton is, lifting it shows how strong a heroe is. But honestly, a Multiverse omniverse, different dimensions, this all is based on theories, speculations, comics are no science, radiation of the red sun? The same as gamma radiation turning you into the hulk. The string theory bringing new dimensions into play is still a theory, an Marvel or DC writer reads about it and fits it into his universe, it stays still a theory, another writer might prefer different theories, they will still be n00bs in those fields and everything they come with is just fantasy.

DC =Sci-Fi-Fantasy
Marvel= Sci-Fi-Fantasy
Both = Comics and not Reality....

So no new rules here, since there are no scans to show a 100% winner and before people start getting on each other throats it's best to say, kindness wins, let's agree to disagree and be cool with it😉.

I like you

Originally posted by Board Walker
I like you

I like you too 🙂.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Yewhew is not the Presence, maybe an Avatar but not the Presence AFAIK.

Non-Canon but still the only thing we have 😉, and a lot of the people on this board seem t accpet LT = Spectre.

Checkmate? I don't think so more like an patt.

Ok the scans show the winner right, show me a scan that shows LT beating Michael, show me the scan that says that the DCU has the same build as the Marvel U (Universe=Universe, Multiverse=Multiverse), show me the scan that say that DCU is a Multiverse, and not an SplitupUniverse called the Multiverse (as defined in the CotIE). Show me the scan that say that the DCU that we know is a part of an Megaverse or Omniverse. Show me the scan that says that the 2nd most powerful being in the Marvel Universe is more powerful then the Second or third most powerful being in the DCU. Show me the scan that shows that the IG gauntlet has power in the DCU 😉.

You can't and never will, all scans shown will give you just the impression where each being stands in his/her/its respective universe but it says nothing how well it would fare in another companies universe. And this leaves you with just one thing, speculations. You can't find a winner there.

Cosmic feats are the most impossible to compare if you don't have an common ground or similar cosmologies in the universes. You can compare heroes better but only because they play with things known to us and the companies, so they can give them more "similar" feats. Each one of us knows what a ton is, lifting it shows how strong a heroe is. But honestly, a Multiverse omniverse, different dimensions, this all is based on theories, speculations, comics are no science, radiation of the red sun? The same as gamma radiation turning you into the hulk. The string theory bringing new dimensions into play is still a theory, an Marvel or DC writer reads about it and fits it into his universe, it stays still a theory, another writer might prefer different theories, they will still be n00bs in those fields and everything they come with is just fantasy.

DC =Sci-Fi-Fantasy
Marvel= Sci-Fi-Fantasy
Both = Comics and not Reality....

So no new rules here, since there are no scans to show a 100% winner and before people start getting on each other throats it's best to say, kindness wins, let's agree to disagree and be cool with it😉.

Could someone make a post with all the Michael (Mainstream DCU only, not Vertigo) support scans and all the LT support scans? I've been reading through this thread to try to catch up on the argument and so far it's mostly just circular logic for the first 19 pages or so. Thanks

Originally posted by illadelph12
Could someone make a post with all the Michael (Mainstream DCU only, not Vertigo) support scans and all the LT support scans? I've been reading through this thread to try to catch up on the argument and so far and it's mostly just circular logic for the first 19 pages or so. Thanks

Its been nothing but circular logic the whole way though.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Could someone make a post with all the Michael (Mainstream DCU only, not Vertigo) support scans and all the LT support scans? I've been reading through this thread to try to catch up on the argument and so far and it's mostly just circular logic for the first 19 pages or so. Thanks

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Thuss does not Michael have the power of the Supreme being.

I think not, it should've been made a poll.

I belive Mr Master has already showed the pictures where Adam state that the Living Tribunal does serve the Supreme being, known as the One-Above-All.

Speculation is a fool's game, yet you blame us for being the only once that're doing it? -- What'd you think the DC-fanboys has?

Sci-Fi, I think you lack the knowledge of what [Fi] fiction means.
There's an explanation for everything in Marvel, it would be the same as to say:
Startrek = Fantasy/SciFi

That's where the debate comes in boy.
There isnt a scan where All-star Superman beats the Hulk, no?
Does that mean All-star Superman is equal to the Hulk?

Each Angel has the Power of the Supreme being, but not everyone has the same amount, per se you can say that TOAA is everything and everything is TOAA and thus everything has TOAAs power. You can replace the TOAA with the word Presence if you want to go for DC. Still Michael has beaten the Spectre who is the servant of the Supreme being, like the HotU was over LT who is also the main man of the Supreme being.

A Poll is nice to see the majority of an board, or the online majority, or the number of accounts, but it is not the law.

To serve the Supreme being doesn't mean to be more powerful then everything else... *hotu* 😉.
As said, the Supreme being might give different amounts of power to his followers, another supreme being might be generous, you never know. DC vs Marvel is the only source we have that gives us an LT=Spectre answer, you may like it or not, it might be canon or not, this is then speculation.

I don't blame ayone who speculates, if we would have facts we wouldn't have to speculate, right? But I think the discussion should stop if the people come to the conclusion that they will for "ever" disagree before it gets "dirty", you kow, it's not worth a single bad feeling. Everyone has his/her opinion about DC/Marvel Cosmic beings, if they won't accept yours don't try to force them upon you. You can try and explain what you think, that's fine, you can discuss about your opinions, but when it's hopeless ad you don't find a solution it's the best to stop don't you think?

I know the difference between Fantasy and Sci-Fi, but sometimes it becomes so blurry you can't tell one from each other.
Cyberpunk is Sci-FI for example,
Lord of the Rings is Fantasy
Shadowrun is Sci-FI-Fantasy like DC ad Marvel, both have their share of Mythology, Magic and "higher" beings. Honestly, the concept of Good Evil is plainly said fantasy, beings representing this are fantasy, Ghost Rider is fantasy. BTW is Odin and technican who programmed Thors Hammer? Marvel has it's fair share of the "unnatural" of it's magic, you can't dismiss it.

My friend, don't call me boy, you don't even know how old I am 😉.
As said, you can compare heroes better then cosmic beings, because of the human lack of Universal knowledge. We have only Theories in the Real Life, and the comics show it pretty accurate. On lower scale, Earthscale or planetscale for example it's easier to compare.

And there might be an person who will always believe that the Hulk, properly written, is equal to AS Superman, this is his opinion, and if he chooses to stick to it I won't laugh at him or spit in his direction. Because one day, might he never come, there will come an DC/Marvel Crossover where the Hulk beats AS-Superman and then we have to swallow it, like Thor vs Superman 😉.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Each Angel has the Power of the Supreme being, but not everyone has the same amount, per se you can say that TOAA is everything and everything is TOAA and thus everything has TOAAs power. You can replace the TOAA with the word Presence if you want to go for DC. Still Michael has beaten the Spectre who is the servant of the Supreme being, like the HotU was over LT who is also the main man of the Supreme being.

A Poll is nice to see the majority of an board, or the online majority, or the number of accounts, but it is not the law.

To serve the Supreme being doesn't mean to be more powerful then everything else... *hotu* 😉.
As said, the Supreme being might give different amounts of power to his followers, another supreme being might be generous, you never know. DC vs Marvel is the only source we have that gives us an LT=Spectre answer, you may like it or not, it might be canon or not, this is then speculation.

I don't blame ayone who speculates, if we would have facts we wouldn't have to speculate, right? But I think the discussion should stop if the people come to the conclusion that they will for "ever" disagree before it gets "dirty", you kow, it's not worth a single bad feeling. Everyone has his/her opinion about DC/Marvel Cosmic beings, if they won't accept yours don't try to force them upon you. You can try and explain what you think, that's fine, you can discuss about your opinions, but when it's hopeless ad you don't find a solution it's the best to stop don't you think?

I know the difference between Fantasy and Sci-Fi, but sometimes it becomes so blurry you can't tell one from each other.
Cyberpunk is Sci-FI for example,
Lord of the Rings is Fantasy
Shadowrun is Sci-FI-Fantasy like DC ad Marvel, both have their share of Mythology, Magic and "higher" beings. Honestly, the concept of Good Evil is plainly said fantasy, beings representing this are fantasy, Ghost Rider is fantasy. BTW is Odin and technican who programmed Thors Hammer? Marvel has it's fair share of the "unnatural" of it's magic, you can't dismiss it.

My friend, don't call me boy, you don't even know how old I am 😉.
As said, you can compare heroes better then cosmic beings, because of the human lack of Universal knowledge. We have only Theories in the Real Life, and the comics show it pretty accurate. On lower scale, Earthscale or planetscale for example it's easier to compare.

And there might be an person who will always believe that the Hulk, properly written, is equal to AS Superman, this is his opinion, and if he chooses to stick to it I won't laugh at him or spit in his direction. Because one day, might he never come, there will come an DC/Marvel Crossover where the Hulk beats AS-Superman and then we have to swallow it, like Thor vs Superman 😉. [/B]

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
So each angel has the power of the supreme being, but not everyone as much 🙄
Yahweh is the same as the God in Preacher (since they're both DC) not supreme as the Presence, however it was stated that Lucifer had the will of Yahweh and Michael his power.
And what did Lucifer do when he merged with Michael, create [B]one universe. That's Michael + Lucifer's prime feat.

I doubt people have more than one account, but you know that best now do you?

Spectres powers varies immenstly, at one point it's about as powerful as Cap. Marvel an other time it's one with God.
A hostless Spectre is not equal to the Living Tribunal.
The Living Tribunal is the center of all things, like proven, the only thing above it is the Marvel staff, which they refere to as the One-Above-All.

Why not continue this debate 'til proof comes, so that we later can rub it into your faces?

No Marvel has an explanation for everything, Celestial's playing = human God's and magics.

Physical age does not equal mental age, child.

Again, crossovers are not canon, or do you belive:
Wolverine > Lobo
Spiderman > Superboy [/B]

IT seems that you are just pathetic and wont' give up. The bat guy was trying to be nice and explained things in a nice way and yet you still lash out. Your still first of all using micheal from Vertigo. But since you must, Elaine, was mikes daughter and she used his power to what? recreated the vertigo multiverse. So there goes your silly little theory that all mikes power ever did was create on universe with lucifer.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
So each angel has the power of the supreme being, but not everyone as much 🙄
Yahweh is the same as the God in Preacher (since they're both DC) not supreme as the Presence, however it was stated that Lucifer had the will of Yahweh and Michael his power.
And what did Lucifer do when he merged with Michael, create [B]one universe. That's Michael + Lucifer's prime feat.

I doubt people have more than one account, but you know that best now do you?

Spectres powers varies immenstly, at one point it's about as powerful as Cap. Marvel an other time it's one with God.
A hostless Spectre is not equal to the Living Tribunal.
The Living Tribunal is the center of all things, like proven, the only thing above it is the Marvel staff, which they refere to as the One-Above-All.

Why not continue this debate 'til proof comes, so that we later can rub it into your faces?

No Marvel has an explanation for everything, Celestial's playing = human God's and magics.

Physical age does not equal mental age, child.

Again, crossovers are not canon, or do you belive:
Wolverine > Lobo
Spiderman > Superboy [/B]

One Universe? The Vertigo Universe? The DC Universe? An Part of the DC Universe? Be more specific... If you can, since DC is just one Universe 😉.

Sure, I read some old threads on this forum, mostly respect threads and more in "interesting" vs threads, there was an user who said that he does not care if he gets banned he has more accounts and can create a new one if he wishes.
Some other speculations from your side? 🙂

Spectres Power was never equal to Captain Marvels, the Captain Marvel you mean was fueld with raw Magic, something different, anyway.

Your Statement "No ...
1. Thanos w/ Heart = The One-Above-All"

Now you say that TOAA is = Marvel Staff? And you really think that Thanos w/heart = Marvel Staff..... Uhm sorry pal, but this is the point where I will stop, I don't midn people living in their own "fantasyworld" but without me buddy 😉.

Why not continue the debate you ask? Two reasons why you can have it, first you are getting insulting, I prefer more "civilized" discussions, and I have the choice to do so 😉. Second reason, you couldn't provide any prove till now and you will never be able, except if Thanos w/heart tells the Marvel Staff to write an Comic where they let LT crush Michael.

The Celestials created the Asgardians and All Magic in the Universe? WoW, that is Sci-Fi at it best I guess. Sorry, it sounds like fantasy for me, no offense, Marvel fantasy sure but still fantasy.

You can call me a child if it pleases you, I'm done with this thread, it's getting bored, I feel no need to insult you, or compare my "mental" age with yours....

So to say it with Marvel words

"Flame on"

and bye bye, it was even a bit entertaining 😉.

bye

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
IT seems that you are just pathetic and wont' give up. The bat guy was trying to be nice and explained things in a nice way and yet you still lash out. Your still first of all using micheal from Vertigo. But since you must, Elaine, was mikes daughter and she used his power to what? recreated the vertigo multiverse. So there goes your silly little theory that all mikes power ever did was create on universe with lucifer.

Originally posted by Mr Master
No, the Universe was not still there.

Eternity was gone, the Universe was gone:

So what happened after that?

Originally posted by Mr Master
"a while back" ... you worried about "a while back?"

Are What Ifs Canon or Not?

Make up your mind friend,

You tell me they are canon now your going off topic, stick to the debate.

Umm... No.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Nah,

Like the Writer himself said,

it was meant to be the Marvel Universe as in EVERYTHING!!!

"So much so Starlin is writing it as if it were an in-continuity story, even though it's really not. Or in other words, [B]if you've always wanted to read about the current-day Marvel Universe coming to an end, this is your story. But you can still expect the Marvel Universe to be in business come September when this series winds up"

The Editor even points out to STILL "Expect Marvel in Business come September"[/B]

Originally posted by Mr Master
What makes the project different from original expectations, however, is that it takes place in the contemporary Marvel Universe … well, sort of. Perhaps it would be better to say the identical twin sister of the contemporary 'continuity' Marvel Universe.

"It takes place out of continuity, but in a Marvel Universe that is as identical to the 'real' one to start with as we could make it, given the lead time. In other words, if this was the only project we were putting out in March, if we were really canceling the entire Marvel line, there wouldn't be any question as to when this story takes place. It happens now."

What it is, is us basically seeing the end of 616, but they supposedly made it into a twin.

Either way, you were the one to use this evidence, and now you are twisting it to fit into your omniverse debate (where did the omniverse come from anyway?).

Originally posted by Mr Master
Jim Starlin was rubbing out ALL of Marvel, twas why Death was not going to survive,

for in the Absence of Life there can be No Death"

I guess the story changed, and Thanos ended up Healing Marvel,

by Re-Creating it.

That right about settles that.

Yall can continue to debate this all yall want.

You do know, that about in the same issue (about 5 or 6 scans difference), Thanos found out that he was supposed to re-create the UNIVERSE (oh-em-gee! universe).

How did the story change that much from one panel to the other?

What you still don't get, is that, the events leading up to the big thing Thanos was fussing over, only happened in 616 (or twin if you prefer it), so, nothing, nothing at all, would have to be done to the rest of the multiverse.

Also, there was still life in the universe, so I don't know why this scan is still important to you.

Do I think, that if there was a problem in the multiverse, that God would have sent Thanos to fix it? Yes.
But there wasn't... it was a universal problem. Therefore, it only had to have the universe restarted.

God had trapped (or tricked by setting out the power) Thanos in the orb, to MAKE him fix the problem. It is all so obvious now. Thanos was trapped. Thanos knew he had two options. Remake or stay.
Thanos's earlier talks to himself would also indicate this.

Death was placed, to give Thanos reason to remake.

The intention was NEVER to get rid of Thanos (that right there, would be saying God is faulty, since Thanos wasn't ridden of), but yet, to fix the error in the the balance.

Does this help at all?

Basically, the only way to stop this, was for Thanos to restart the universe. He had already tried to fix it, and only made it worse.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, me too.

sleepyhead

[B]"No mere words can describe the sensation of being One with All"

"I was Everything, Bonded to OMNI-REALITY"

For the Record.

Thanos was One with the Omniverse! 😱 [/B]

And yet, he had only took down a universe.

He had shown no power outside of the universe.

Also, the funny thing is, that everything he was one with, was interestingly universal.

Also, before I post this scan, he says realms, not universes. There are realms in the universe.

He found out the UNIVERSAL vibratory patterns, the DNA of all reality.
Except he says universe, so don't try to turn that into something more.

Basically he found out EVERYTHING in the UNIVERSE. Nothing was hidden from him... in the UNIVERSE.
Also, even if he was omniversal, or whatever, he still absorbed a universe, so that is all that matters.
Look, hell, how about you are right, he was one with omni-reality, OK, good. Still doesn't change him only absorbing a universe.

He was made to reset the universe, not the omniverse.

"Universe"

Originally posted by Batman-Prime One Universe? The Vertigo Universe? The DC Universe? An Part of the DC Universe? Be more specific... If you can, since DC is just one Universe 😉.

Sure, I read some old threads on this forum, mostly respect threads and more in "interesting" vs threads, there was an user who said that he does not care if he gets banned he has more accounts and can create a new one if he wishes.
Some other speculations from your side? 🙂

Spectres Power was never equal to Captain Marvels, the Captain Marvel you mean was fueld with raw Magic, something different, anyway.

Your Statement "No ...
1. Thanos w/ Heart = The One-Above-All"

Now you say that TOAA is = Marvel Staff? And you really think that Thanos w/heart = Marvel Staff..... Uhm sorry pal, but this is the point where I will stop, I don't midn people living in their own "fantasyworld" but without me buddy 😉.

Why not continue the debate you ask? Two reasons why you can have it, first you are getting insulting, I prefer more "civilized" discussions, and I have the choice to do so 😉. Second reason, you couldn't provide any prove till now and you will never be able, except if Thanos w/heart tells the Marvel Staff to write an Comic where they let LT crush Michael.

The Celestials created the Asgardians and All Magic in the Universe? WoW, that is Sci-Fi at it best I guess. Sorry, it sounds like fantasy for me, no offense, Marvel fantasy sure but still fantasy.

You can call me a child if it pleases you, I'm done with this thread, it's getting bored, I feel no need to insult you, or compare my "mental" age with yours....

So to say it with Marvel words

"Flame on"

and bye bye, it was even a bit entertaining 😉.

Originally posted by bigbran

This sort of implies that one universe managed to beat the TOAA.

Originally posted by bigbran
[B]So what happened after that?