Tolkein was a "prophet".

Originally posted by Regret
So then a more correct statement would be: Tolkien's works were based in Indo-European mythology.

I was arguing semantics, but to state "based in Norse mythology" is a bit more narrow a statement than I believe Tolkien's works deserve.

Wel to be quite honest it seems still that most of his ideas were derived from Norse Lore.

Midgard - Middle Earth
Gandalf - Looks almost exactly like Odin and the actual name is taken from the Norse sagas
The word Alf is Norse. The Celts called them the Fae or the sidhe.
Odin has nine rings that recreate themslves every nine days

etc.

Serioulsy the list goes on and on. I still think that most of it was derived from Norse Lore, a 4 year old can see that when you start reading Norse lore in depth.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Wel to be quite honest it seems still that most of his ideas were derived from Norse Lore.

Midgard - Middle Earth
Gandalf - Looks almost exactly like Odin and the actual name is taken from the Norse sagas
The word Alf is Norse. The Celts called them the Fae or the sidhe.
Odin has nine rings that recreate themslves every nine days

etc.

Serioulsy the list goes on and on. I still think that most of it was derived from Norse Lore, a 4 year old can see that when you start reading Norse lore in depth.

Again, he obviously based his mythologies in a specifically Northern Germanic tradition, but are you right to condemn his works for this? What if I said that the Biblical Flood-story likely derived from an older myth, more akin to the Babylonian myth of Gilgamesh? Would you think less of the Biblical story because of it, or would you move on?

BTW: The word Elf is English, and derives from the Old Englsh ælf, (pls. elfe, ielfe, and ylfe), ultimately from the Indo-European root albh- which signified "White." It was originally an adjectival form, and its Latin cognate was albus. The form you state derives from Germanic, and hence from Indo-European, via Old Norse.

EDIT - Back to your first post: How is it prophecy to compare the moral shortcomings and excellences of different peoples and their collected stories? 😕

Originally posted by Slyððering
I shouldn't have said that. But I still find your comparison of one work of fiction to the most popular and perhaps most highly-regarded religious text....well, blasphemous.

Well to be quite honest with you I think it is more complicated than people give it credit. I cant be bothered to get into it. I think its subjective you can see him as a storyteller and you can see him as a prophet if you wanted to.

At least you dont see heros in the LOTR raping and murdering like you do in the Bible.

Originally posted by Slyððering
Again, he obviously based his mythologies in a specifically Northern Germanic tradition,

Obvoulsy

Originally posted by Slyððering

but are you right to condemn his works for this?

Im confused im not condemning anything.

Originally posted by Slyððering

What if I said that the Biblical Flood-story likely derived from an older myth, more akin to the Babylonian myth of Gilgamesh? Would you think less of the Biblical story because of it, or would you move on?

Yeah I know. There is nothing that is truly orginal.

Originally posted by Slyððering

EDIT - Back to your first post: How is it prophecy to compare the moral shortcomings and excellences of different peoples?

Thats why I put prophet in "". Obvoulsy hes not a real prophet but just like people like Jesus he told stories to try and teach us morality.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well to be quite honest with you I think it is more complicated than people give it credit. I cant be bothered to get into it. I think its subjective you can see him as a storyteller and you can see him as a prophet if you wanted to.

At least you dont see heros in the LOTR raping and murdering like you do in the Bible.

Obvoulsy

Im confused im not condemning anything.

Yeah I know. There is nothing that is truly orginal.

Thats why I put prophet in "". Obvoulsy hes not a real prophet but just like people like Jesus he told stories to try and teach us morality.

You aren't condemning Tolkien? Well, it seemed so to me, since you've constantly said things like, (paraphrasing), "it's sad if Tolkien based his mythology on Norse mythology," etc.

Trust me, I love Tolkien. I think his stories are an inspiration, not only for their literary value. But I'd never compare them to anything other than other media.

BTW: Sorry if I've gotten on anybody's nerves. Don't take me too seriously. 😉

Originally posted by Slyððering
You aren't condemning Tolkien? Well, it seemed so to me, since you've constantly said things like, (paraphrasing), "it's sad if Tolkien based his mythology on Norse mythology," etc.

Naw man.

Originally posted by Slyððering

Trust me, I love Tolkien. I think his stories are an inspiration, not only for their literary value. But I'd never compare them to anything other than other media.

Well to be quite honest calling him a prophet is extreme but at the same time I dont think his books are just fun reading.

I kinda see him in a religous light because im interested in Heathenism and by reading his works I could probably get an insight into it.

According to Norse Lore some people beleived they were descended from the Alfs and even had their own language. I think this is the inspiration behind Tolkien's Elvish.

Originally posted by Slyððering

BTW: Sorry if I've gotten on anybody's nerves. Don't take me too seriously. 😉

Ok.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Naw man.

Well to be quite honest calling him a prophet is extreme but at the same time I dont think his books are just fun reading.

I kinda see him in a religous light because im interested in Heathenism and by reading his works I could probably get an insight into it.

According to Norse Lore some people beleived they were descended from the Alfs and even had their own language. I think this is the inspiration behind Tolkien's Elvish.

Ok.

Perhaps you're right. Tolkien himself, however, claimed that he created his languages purely for his æsthetic pleasure, and that the mythologies came out of the need for a world in which his language was supposed to have inhabited.

Tolkien was heavily influenced by Norse mythology and based one of his languages on it (which one is escaping me) and many of the side stories are based on Norse myths, especially in the Hobbit from what I can tell. LOTR and the Silmarillion have strong Christian themes and both he and C.S. Lewis tried to tell the story in LOTR and the Chronicles of Narnia respectively.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Tolkien was heavily influenced by Norse mythology and based one of his languages on it (which one is escaping me) and many of the side stories are based on Norse myths, especially in the Hobbit from what I can tell. LOTR and the Silmarillion have strong Christian themes and both he and C.S. Lewis tried to tell the story in LOTR and the Chronicles of Narnia respectively.

There is no more Christian themes in LOTR then what would be in any book written by someone who lives in a Christian country.

Originally posted by Alfheim
In the LOTR (Lord Of The Rings) Tolkein identified what was wrong with the Viking world and the present world.

There was nothing wrong with the Viking World, other than they kicked so much ass!

If you want to make a jump to real life from Tolkien books, then the only real event is WW1.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
There is no more Christian themes in LOTR then what would be in any book written by someone who lives in a Christian country.

Originally posted by Nellinator
No, Tolkien wrote it with that being one of his purposes. I'd be happy to quote his letter to the editor that proves so.

I really don't believe that such a letter exists, but I'm sure you will quote something.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I really don't believe that such a letter exists, but I'm sure you will quote something.

I believe that in the letter which Nellinator is referencing, Tolkien does call LotR "a Christian story." I'll check it out later when I have my copy of Letters available.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
😑 No...it just never itnerested me as much.

Much like damn Harry Potter. But I've seen the movies....last week for the first time 😮

It's not a negative descision. His books are overly wordy and antagonistic.

However, Harry Potter really is a kids book. Especially by comparisson.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Anybody who is interested in Norse paganism/ heathenism and who has read anything by Tolkein will now that Tolkein studied the Norse tradition in-depth.

Tolkein studied heathenism so much that he even developed his own language Elvish. As far as I know Tolkein did not create this language from scratch (well its impossble to create anything from scratch, everything has an influence) and is actually based on heathen languages.

Alot of people might think that The Lord of The Rings is just a fun book, but in my opinion it can be just as important as The Bible when teaching moral lessons, in fact it could be argued that it would be even better.

In the LOTR (Lord Of The Rings) Tolkein identified what was wrong with the Viking world and the present world. People are just too greedy everybody wants to be better than everbody else and nobody wants to share. This is the corruption which all creatures had which the ring used to work on. This is why Frodo was such an important character, Frodo didnt care about power all he wanted to do was hang out with his friends. Bare in mind this does not mean that we should all be wasters. Frodo was not a lay about he just did not want to be powerful.

This is an important point, if people were more interested in just being "happy" instead of the accumulation of power the world would be a happier place.

The LOTR is also about racial unity and tolerance. In the LOTR there are different races but they are all important. In the end its because all the races joined togther which enabled the world to be saved. Not only that there are races with different characteristics but they were all special. Despite the fact that Hobbits were small in stature their passion and loyalty helped make a difference.

Another important point if we spent more time looking at peoples hearts instead of their stature and physical appearance this would improve the world also.

So I think Tolkein was a "prophet" in the sense that he studied the religon of the Vikings and he identfied what was wrong with their world and identified what was wrong with this world. Tolkein has created books which teach us great moral teachings for now and forever. Discuss.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Nice. I loved the Vikings, and LOTR, but by your logic, everyone's a prophet.

Mnnn not really not everbody has written literature that has affected lots of people.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
It's not a negative descision. His books are overly wordy and antagonistic.

However, Harry Potter really is a kids book. Especially by comparisson.

Also, although good, Harry Potter is full of stolen content from absolutely loads of classic literature. For example 'philosophers stone' is taken straight out of Frankenstein.

Originally posted by Alliance

Tolkein also has overarching racism, anti-industrialism and his novels are reactionary. I don't really consider those valuble contributions.

Oh and another thing Alliance, I guess if Tolkein had 20 wives, married a nine year old, killed hundreds of people and forced people to convert to Tolkeinsim you would kill yourself trying to defend him. 😐

Originally posted by Alfheim
Oh and another thing Alliance, I guess if Tolkein had 20 wives, married a nine year old, killed hundreds of people and forced people to convert to Tolkeinsim you would kill yourself trying to defend him. 😐

I think that if the above had happened, then Alliance would have to kill you. 😆

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I think that if the above had happened, then Alliance would have to kill you. 😆

And it's all true, as certain members here are my witnesses.