One of the smartest posts in this thread yet & he stated something that I did as well earlier. Goku is always tired after using huge energy waves. His body can't handle huge amounts of power like Superman's body can. I can bet that if Superman could create energy waves he wouldn't be tired every time he made one.
Heres something that might interest you. Piccolo destroyed the moon right after the RADITZ saga. His powerlevel was about 1500 (fifteen thousand) at best. Goku's Super Saiyan powerlevel at the time of Frieza was 15,000,000 (fifteen million). And thats all substantiated by Toryiama, as he was the one who specified the powerlevels and since he created the show what he says is law. Now given what Supreme Kai said in the Buu saga that the other Supreme Kai's were about 100 times stronger then Frieza and seeing as Buu easily wiped all of them aside and killed them, and seeing as Goku could contend with Buu.. then well...you do the math. I'm tired of repeating myself to people with apparent deafness.
The first part of the statement isn't true. Piccolo's power level was no where near 1500 when he destroyed the moon. His power level was only around 322. I doubt he'd be able to raise it to 1500 just about two days after his battle with Raditz. Also, no one is deaf, except maybe you. The only way you can actually say Goku could destroy a planet 10 times over or whatever would be if it actually happened. Did it actually happen? No, it didn't so you can't say what someone can do when they've never done it or never showed that they have the ability to do it. You can do all the math problems you want but I don't care about any of that unless you can show me that Goku actually has destroyed a planet 10 times over which he hasn't.
LOL, first off piccolo's powerlevel using the special beam cannon IS around 13-15,000. Second, by lowering Piccolo's powerlevel you make my case stronger, if you didn't realise, but thats beside the fact. Have you heard "the absence of proof isnt the proof of absence"?. Empirical FACT says he can, just because he hasn't does not mean he cant. Its a logical fallacy to say otherwise. Here is an example. Has Superman lifted 180,000 trains into space before at the same time? No? Well just because he has never done it doesn't mean he cant, in actuality he could, and easily. How do we know? Because Superman is stated to be able to lift such things, just as Toryaima's powerlevels state the Goku could destroy a planet a few thousand times. Want a non-comic or fictional example? Ok, I have never drank 2 liters of chocolate milk before, but just because I never have done it does not mean I cant do it if I wanted to, I could do it, I just have not done it. The absence of proof isnt the proof of absence, try again though.
haha, oh ha please give me a second here.
Your logic is plain stupid and wrong. First of all your Superman theory about the trains is wrong, Superman has moved planets so we know he would have no problem doing that... Wait. I just realised the problem here. Your so called argument is all the dbz fans have ever been able to give us and i'm afraid that is not how vs threads work on kmc. We need proof, evidence and logicality here and your theory just does not work when you weigh up all the evidence that says Superman owns Goku 10/10, i'm afraid your little theory only holds up with dbz fanboys. You have no way to prove what your saying other than power levels, which btw have never been a clear indicator of how much power anyone in dbz could exert, I'm afraid you will need to try again.
Originally posted by Magee
haha, oh ha please give me a second here.Your logic is plain stupid and wrong. First of all your Superman theory about the trains is wrong, Superman has moved planets so we know he would have no problem doing that... Wait. I just realised the problem here. Your so called argument is all the dbz fans have ever been able to give us and i'm afraid that is not how vs threads work on kmc. We need proof, evidence and logicality here and your theory just does not work when you weigh up all the evidence that says Superman owns Goku 10/10, i'm afraid your little theory only holds up with dbz fanboys. You have no way to prove what your saying other than power levels, which btw have never been a clear indicator of how much power anyone in dbz could exert, I'm afraid you will need to try again.
So....wait...you deny basic and simple logic? LOL! I don't even know what to say to that. Thats like saying 2+2=6 and claiming it to be correct. Powerlevels ARE evidence, its called DEDUCTION maybe you've heard of it before, they are a way to gauge what a person is capable of at a specific level of power to someone of a greater or lesser power. Pretty simple stuff, a 4th grader could do the math and deduction needed for this.
Vegeta's powerlevel in saiyan saga = 18,000
First: Vegeta is capable of destroying planets at this point, he is the first to be able to do so that we see, so by default 18,000 becomes the known MINIMUM in which it takes to destroy a planet, it could be less, but we don't know that because we've never seen it. Although we DO know that around 1,500 is capable of destroying something the size of earths moon, but there is no real basis for comparison so thats just an interesting fact.
Now: we have Goku SSJ, who's documented powerlevel is 15,000,000 in the Frieza saga. Since the known minimum to destroy a planet is 18,000 we divide 15,000,000 into 18,000 to get the number of times Goku could destroy a planet at the time of Frieza. For the record that number is 833. So as of the Frieza saga Goku possesses the power to destroy an earth sized planet 833 times.
Then: This is where it becomes a little bit more sketchy because there are no official powerlevels after the Frieza saga. However the Supreme Kai says that the other Supreme Kai's that were killed by Buu (and easily I might add) were about 100 times stronger then Frieza (each one of them). Frieza's documented max powerlevel is 12,000,000. I think the rest is pretty self explanatory, do the simple yet very interesting math, it'll do you wonders.
If you think pictures from a comic book and feats are the only thing that counts as evidence then you have no idea what your talking about. Go to the Star Wars Vs. Forums and you'll see some REAL debating, not the pseudo-arguments that are in the Comic book Vs. Forums. Go to the SW forums and try to debate something, if you debate like they do in the Comic book Vs. you'll be crushed in an instant. Why? Because they use real LOGIC and DEDUCTION something that people here don't seem to get. But simply because you don't get it does not mean you are correct, it just means you cant argue properly.
Your logic does not correspond with the show and what they were shown capable of doing. Why did Goku need a spirit bomb using energy from everyone on earth to beat buu? Why not just blow up that part of the galaxy since you claim he would of been capable of it. Why didn't Goku just unleash a planet destroying blast on frieza? Namek was about to blow up anyway. Why didn't he I.T cell somewhere and just blow him up? Gohan was barely able to completely destroy cell with his kamehameha but according to you even piccolo could have done this, why didn't he? Power levels were never used after the frieza saga so your argument means nothing to me. I go by what I seen Goku do during dbz not some faulty power level which was never even used after frieza transformed to his final stage.
My friend you are speculating, pure and simple. Would also like to know where you get powerlevels for Goku ssj1 and frieza final form as they were never stated in the show. Another thing I think you are forgetting is the fact Goku tires so easily its just not funny he would not be able to keep up with Superman, he would not be able to hit him, he would not be able to hurt him, end of.
Again just so you catch this. Power levels were never used after the frieza saga, so your point is not valid. However using your logic krillen, tien, yamcha and choutzu should be easily able to blow up the earth... lol.
Originally posted by Magee
Your logic does not correspond with the show and what they were shown capable of doing. Why did Goku need a spirit bomb using energy from everyone on earth to beat buu? Why not just blow up that part of the galaxy since you claim he would of been capable of it. Why didn't Goku just unleash a planet destroying blast on frieza? Namek was about to blow up anyway. Why didn't he I.T cell somewhere and just blow him up? Gohan was barely able to completely destroy cell with his kamehameha but according to you even piccolo could have done this, why didn't he? Power levels were never used after the frieza saga so your argument means nothing to me. I go by what I seen Goku do during dbz not some faulty power level which was never even used after frieza transformed to his final stage.My friend you are speculating, pure and simple. Would also like to know where you get powerlevels for Goku ssj1 and frieza final form as they were never stated in the show. Another thing I think you are forgetting is the fact Goku tires so easily its just not funny he would not be able to keep up with Superman, he would not be able to hit him, he would not be able to hurt him, end of.
Again just so you catch this. Power levels were never used after the frieza saga, so your point is not valid. However using your logic krillen, tien, yamcha and choutzu should be easily able to blow up the earth... lol.
1. Goku didn't know I.T when he was fighting Frieza. He learns it after.
2. What you fail to realise is that planet explosions are not powerful enough to kill these people. Frieza, cut in half, and almost completely dead survived a planet explosion. Sure, Piccolo was capable of destroying planets, but he wasn't capable of destroying Cell as Cell could easily survive a planet explosion. Gohan's Kamehameha against Cell was a Solar System destroyer (as was Cells) had it hit the Sun (or some other object) but it didn't. Piccolo isn't capable of this kind of power, he could destroy the earth a few hundred times, but this level of power isn't capable of beating people like Cell, it takes more.
3. Where am I getting the powerlevels? In the DBZ Daizenshû, which are all signed and labeled DBZ fact by Toryiama himself.
4. Yes, Tien, Yamcha, Krillin etc could destroy the earth.
5. Powerlevels are not stated after Frieza, But Supreme Kai says that the other Supreme Kais are 100 times more powerful then Frieza, since we have Frieza's powerlevel, its very easy to extrapolate peoples powerlevels at that time. Simple math.
Your blatant disregard of facts is quite amusing to me actually.
BTW You'll notice that I'm not arguing anything of Goku vs. Superman, So I dont know why you are. I dont care really. What I am trying to get you to understand is what the DBZ fighters are really capable of.
What the hell? Solar system destroying? Why is it that these 'solar system destroying' blasts only make craters no more than a mile wide? It did hit something, it hit cell so why didn't the planet go boom as well as our solar system? I dont care about power levels, I dont care about daizenshu or what ever. I can see that you are basing your opinion off of these power levels and thats fine but the fact still remains Goku has never displayed that kind of power, the kind needed to kill Superman. He has never displayed the raw strength needed to hurt him and is no where near as fast as Superman in fighting speed.
So can I ask, Do you think Goku could kill Superman?
Originally posted by Magee
What the hell? Solar system destroying? Why is it that these 'solar system destroying' blasts only make craters no more than a mile wide? It did hit something, it hit cell so why didn't the planet go boom as well as our solar system? I dont care about power levels, I dont care about daizenshu or what ever. I can see that you are basing your opinion off of these power levels and thats fine but the fact still remains Goku has never displayed that kind of power, the kind needed to kill Superman. He has never displayed the raw strength needed to hurt him and is no where near as fast as Superman in fighting speed.So can I ask, Do you think Goku could kill Superman?
Actually when Kid Goku in Dragonball GT, He displayed that power when he beat Super 17 with Super Dragon Fist, Also Goku was able to beat Cell in GT with one hit.
Originally posted by Magee
What the hell? Solar system destroying? Why is it that these 'solar system destroying' blasts only make craters no more than a mile wide? It did hit something, it hit cell so why didn't the planet go boom as well as our solar system? I don't care about power levels, I don't care about daizenshu or what ever. I can see that you are basing your opinion off of these power levels and thats fine but the fact still remains Goku has never displayed that kind of power, the kind needed to kill Superman. He has never displayed the raw strength needed to hurt him and is no where near as fast as Superman in fighting speed.So can I ask, Do you think Goku could kill Superman?
Cell clearly states in his final showdown with Gohan that he's not going to destroy the earth with the kamehameha, but he's going to destroy the whole solar system. There's no reason to think he was lying, Gohan obviously knew he wasn't lying because he was about to give up.
Also, displaying that kind of power and it and having it are different matters. Goku hasn't displayed it for a few reasons. Goku (and the Z fighters) protect people, they do not destroy them, it makes no sense for Goku or anyone to destroy the earth when thats what they are protecting.
The villains are a bit of a different story, most of the villains have something to prove and don't destroy the earth because they want to fight the Z fighters to prove they are the strongest and or they want to rule the earth, its hard to rule something you just blew up I'd say. Frieza was the only one to deviate from this but he was afraid of using his full power to destroy the planet out of fear of hurting himself from his own blast so the planet didn't explode right away, it did however blow up shortly after. The funny thing is that Kid Buu isn't like this, and doesn't care about anything and almost as soon as he appears he just casually blows up the earth and then proceeds to I.T around space casually destroying other planets for pure amusement. Thats why we don't see them blow up planets etc. Basically its for plot reasons..ummm..what the Comic people call PIS I think? I.e. Characters not using the full extent of their abilities for plot reasons (i.e. wanting to prove they are the strongest, or to rule the world or whatever). But just because they don't does not mean they cant. They definitely can, Buu did it and it didn't even cause him to blink in any kid of exhaustion or tiredness, he did it simply by forming a ball of energy and casually tossing it at the earth. No tiredness in sight. And as I said he continues to go around doing the same thing with zero sign of exhaustion, actually after easily obliterating a few dozen worlds he goes and proceeds to pummel SSJ3 Goku and Vegeta, again with no sign of exhaustion at all.
To answer your question I think that Goku has an edge in fighting speed over Superman. His kind of speed is more useful in a fight and his I.T is..well...instant, its teleporting. Superman is faster in terms of pure flying and running speed, he's fast but Goku's style of movement is more useful in an overall fight. Basically what I'm saying is that Goku's speed is superior for fights, but Superman would own Goku in a race.
In terms of pure lifting power Superman has the obvious advantage here. Goku's strength is pretty inconsistent, as is most of the Z fighters, but needless to say Goku is pretty strong. It seems that his actual punching power is actually greater then his pure lifting power, which really is weird but whatever, I'd speculate that is has something to do with Ki and not muscles. Needless to say Goku has lifted quite heavy things before, not Superman heavy things, but heavy. At the same time Goku's punches send people flying for miles through mountains and rock etc, which is more impressive then his lifting feats. (in GT Goku punches Super 17 around a good part of the world before 17 stops himself). I'd say that Superman wins in overall strength, but Goku has the power to hurt Superman with his strikes given all his punching feats. If Goku and Supes had a lifting contest Supes would easily win though.
In terms of offensive firepower (blasts etc.) Goku has a MAJOR advantage, and I mean massive. Given the extent of his power (which I was talking about before) he outclasses Supes here easily.
Supes seems to have the edge in durability though as he has survived Supernovas relatively unscathed. Supes also has more durability in terms of physical strikes then Goku. Again this is an inconsistency in DBZ, Goku can survive planet shattering energy attacks, but seems to be more vulnerable to more physical attacks. Again I'd summise that it has something to do with Ki and not his physical body. Needless to say Supes is more durable then Goku, by how much its hard to tell given the inconsistencies in DBZ, but Goku, like Frieza, could easily survive a planets destruction without effort (the problem though is Goku needs air to breathe, but the actual blast wouldn't kill him).
And lastly Supes has a MAJOR edge in stamina. Goku, especially at high levels of power burns out quick where as Superman could go on fighting for ludicrous amounts of time even without the Sun to replenish him. But with the Sun, his stamina is probably a good million times greater then Goku's.
Do I think Goku could beat Superman. Yea, if he can manage to put all his energy into one single uber blast then I.T away to somewhere he can breathe. But he isn't going to outlast Supes and out-muscling Supes is hard pressed for anyone in any comic universe to do, so I doubt that would happen. But given Goku's enormous punching power he could hurt Supes, but how much is questionable. Goku would have to rely on his superior movement techniques and his ludicrous firepower to stop Superman. But one mistake and Supes will beat him. Basically for Goku to win he'd have to do it very fast and right at the start (assuming Supes was going full power from the get-go), if he doesn't then Goku will lose.
God thats a long post lol.
hehe that was long and has some very good points to it. It's hard for me to tell who has faster fighting reflexes as comparing an anime to a comic book is hard. I do like Goku's smooth style of fighting thinking back on his fight with kid buu and would probably have an edge over Supes in h2h skill although Supes has been trained by mongul and wonder woman. However Goku may be able to hit him and knock him off guard but he can not beat him this way. We all know how ridiculously long it takes these people to charge up their attacks, I honestly do not think Goku would ever hit him with a powerful enough ki attack that could take him down, its just far to slow.
I agree with you on most of what you just said but i'm tired and need to sleep now, good night.
((The_Anomaly)) dude why bother writing posts that long when no one understands basic logic you gave such a good arguments that 5 year old would understand. I think when we asked the guy who created DBZ how strong Goku or any other Z fighter is they would still refuse to belive it. I'm huge Superman and everything that has to do with him fan but i know that he wouldnt be able to beat Goku, it would be a good fight but Goku would win at the end.
Well imagine a blood lusted Goku, it wouldn't be pretty, I actually cant imagine it because the destructive force he could unleash would be ridiculous. I really don't think a battle between these two could end in anything less then the complete Solar System being destroyed if Goku went nuts, but then that isn't Goku's style. As a matter of fact both Goku and Superman tend to hold back a lot anyways. So who knows. If we throw SSJ4 into the mix then it becomes more interesting as SSJ4 seems to not be as straining as SSJ3 in terms of energy consumption, Goku seems to be able to maintain SSJ4 for much a much longer duration of time then SSJ3. I guess its because SSJ4 isn't a progression of the Regular SSJ states like SSJ3 is. SSJ4 Goku would be a tough fight for even Superman as Goku is much stronger in that form and he can stay in that form for long durations of time.
But whatever, this is a hard battle to assess. Goku has never faced someone like Superman and Superman has never faced someone like Goku. Its impossible to judge how well Superman could handle a Ki blast as its never happened before. Like what would Supermans powerlevel be if it was taken? Would he even have one? Impossible to answer.
Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Well imagine a blood lusted Goku, it wouldn't be pretty, I actually cant imagine it because the destructive force he could unleash would be ridiculous. I really don't think a battle between these two could end in anything less then the complete Solar System being destroyed if Goku went nuts, but then that isn't Goku's style. As a matter of fact both Goku and Superman tend to hold back a lot anyways. So who knows. If we throw SSJ4 into the mix then it becomes more interesting as SSJ4 seems to not be as straining as SSJ3 in terms of energy consumption, Goku seems to be able to maintain SSJ4 for much a much longer duration of time then SSJ3. I guess its because SSJ4 isn't a progression of the Regular SSJ states like SSJ3 is. SSJ4 Goku would be a tough fight for even Superman as Goku is much stronger in that form and he can stay in that form for long durations of time.But whatever, this is a hard battle to assess. Goku has never faced someone like Superman and Superman has never faced someone like Goku. Its impossible to judge how well Superman could handle a Ki blast as its never happened before. Like what would Supermans powerlevel be if it was taken? Would he even have one? Impossible to answer.
Actually the only reason Goku can't stay in SSJ3 longer than SSJ4 is because Goku's tiny body wasn't able to control the power in him and SSJ4 gave him the abilitity to transform into his adult stage, allowing him to control the power within his body.