Darth Vader vs Anakin

Originally posted by allfg
That's not what I was saying, I was saying that it's very unlikely that Vader would have remembered such intimate knowledge of the way he fought, given that 22 years had gone by, and he had tried as hard as he could to shut his identity out of his mind for all those years.

The style, yes, but knowledge of his former fighting tendencies, and weaknesses and whatnot, very unlikely.

Right, I'm sure he'd be able to push Anakin into making that very same mistake again. 🙄

If Vader was in a fight with his younger self, of course he would have a mind advantage. It is not like he has forgotten his past, he doesn't need to know how Anakin fought, cause it is all about Anakin's personality.
He knows himself that his own mistakes when being young was his arrogance and that he was to flashy, that is why he changed.
Needless to say, he has the mind advantage, undoubtedly.

Uh... Obviously, if this is Anakin by ROTS, he has never even MADE that mistake, if he had, it wouldn't be ROTS Anakin, but Darth Vader in the suit after the accident.

And Darth sith, where does it say Gillard is a C canon source?

Darth Vader just needs to hold off Anakin and wait for him to screw up.

From RODV:
"Did Sidious turn you into the monstrosity you've become?"
"No, Shryne," Vader said in a flat voice. "I did this to myself-with some help from Obi-Wan Kenobi."

Vader definitely has the skill and enough advantages to hold him off long enough for Anakin to screw up.

How can Vader fight himself?

Because we have imagination...

"Imagination, no it is not"

"Yeah, it is."

If Vader was in a fight with his younger self, of course he would have a mind advantage. It is not like he has forgotten his past, he doesn't need to know how Anakin fought, cause it is all about Anakin's personality.
He knows himself that his own mistakes when being young was his arrogance and that he was to flashy, that is why he changed.
Needless to say, he has the mind advantage, undoubtedly.

You're acting as if only Vader would be the only person who has those advantages against Anakin, when pretty much everyone who knew Anakin would. I was only arguing against him knowing Anakin's fighting tendencies and weaknesses and the like inside out.

Uh... Obviously, if this is Anakin by ROTS, he has never even MADE that mistake, if he had, it wouldn't be ROTS Anakin, but Darth Vader in the suit after the accident.

When I said 'again', I didn't quite mean it like that. My point was, you can't argue that Anakin would make that very same mistake every time he's up against someone on par with Obi-Wan. That would be like saying that Mace would always disarm Sidious with a kick if they were to fight, which is ridiculous, because both of these mentioned occurrences are dependant on the specific and unique circumstances that the fight entailed.

I agree, that wouldn't happened every time, Anakin wouldn't make same mistakes in every fight, if he fought like he did Against Dooku he has a very good chance of wining.

If Vader fought Anakin prior to Mustafar he would win.

What do you mean prior to Mustafar, in his clear mind state like with Dooku, maybe , depends on the terrain, where he could use his better Force powers, like trow stuff at him, like he did against Luke in ESB, but in a saber match, Anakin clear minded like against Dooku, Vader loses.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
What do you mean prior to Mustafar, in his clear mind state like with Dooku, maybe , depends on the terrain, where he could use his better Force powers, like trow stuff at him, like he did against Luke in ESB, but in a saber match, Anakin clear minded like against Dooku, Vader loses.

This however is a pure lightsaber match not an all out fight becauuse in a force fight and all out fight, vader > anakin, his grip killed some body far far away, he used force crush to take down tanks the size of an ATAT and he was able to shake down buildings in EAW with a technique.

For just a saber match itself, this is a good debate

Originally posted by allfg
You're acting as if only Vader would be the only person who has those advantages against Anakin, when pretty much everyone who knew Anakin would. I was only arguing against him knowing Anakin's fighting tendencies and weaknesses and the like inside out.

When I said 'again', I didn't quite mean it like that. My point was, you can't argue that Anakin would make that very same mistake every time he's up against someone on par with Obi-Wan. That would be like saying that Mace would always disarm Sidious with a kick if they were to fight, which is ridiculous, because both of these mentioned occurrences are dependant on the specific and unique circumstances that the fight entailed.

Being himself would have a major advantage, it's not like "anyone who knows him". You've got to understand that. If you when you were 50 and met yourself at this age (assuming you are not 50😛), you will understand yourself alot easier than probably any of your friends...

Did I say he would make the exact same mistake?

Being himself would have a major advantage, it's not like "anyone who knows him". You've got to understand that. If you when you were 50 and met yourself at this age (assuming you are not 50), you will understand yourself alot easier than probably any of your friends...

The thing is, he had been trying to completely shut out his former life for twenty years. Given the huge amount of time that has gone by, and the fact that he was trying desperately to forget everything about himself during those years, which would include his fighting tendencies, I really don't see how he's supposed to know himself better than someone like Obi-Wan or Yoda. Obviously he'd remember that he was somewhat reckless and arrogant, but who knew Anakin and didn't know those things? To argue that he'd retain such intimate information about his former fighting tendencies that would be exclusive to himself begs for more proof, imho.

Did I say he would make the exact same mistake?

And you would never forget the dumbest move in your life, the one who cost Vader everything. He would know how he acted, he would take advantage of these things for sure...

This seemed to imply it. If not, my bad.

Again, tried to forget. And then again, if he fought him, he would be able to take advantage of these things. Comon, he actually WAS this person, he knows him better than anyone, even after 20 years, he must remember the time before his accident, like someone who loses his legs, he sure as hell won't forget the time he had legs, if he lost them when he was say 20.

I just meant reckless mistakes, not exactly the same one. Sorry...

The thing is, he actually spent over 20 years completely shutting out his former identity, so sure he would remember what kind of person he was, but I just don't see how he's supposed to know his former self to such a degree that others who knew Anakin wouldn't.

He didn't forget a damn thing. He did shut hims former self out, took on a new identity, got accustomed to the suit, etc, but, he couldn't forget. That's why he went back in the end.

He definitely has a significant advantage, while Anakin knows nothing about him.

Well obviously he couldn't ever forget who he used to be, that's just too damn big to forget, however I find it really hard to believe that he'd be able to retain such specific knowledge about the way he used to fight that others who knew him wouldn't know, considering that would be something he'd most likely naturally forget after 22 years, let alone 22 years where he pretty much forced himself to forget about everything regarding his former identity. I just don't see it, and disagree.

1 other question, why would Vader have a strength advantage over Anakin? Because while his mechanical limbs would be stronger than Anakin's natural physical strength, it would be much easier for Anakin to channel the force into amping up his strength through his muscles and such then it would be for Vader to do so with his artificial limbs. Is it ever actually stated or made obvious, or do people just assume so because he's a cyborg?

No matter how small or big, it's an advantage. He knew about Padme, about Sidious, about his battles to resist the dark side, he knows why Anakin joined in the first place. (Note that ROTS Anakin hasn't done it yet) He could really **** up his mind.

If you disagree, we will just leave it at that, disagreeing....

And so do many others... I wasn't ever arguing that it wasn't an advantage, but not one that others such as Obi and Yoda wouldn't share.

Obi-Wan didn't know exactly why Anakin joined the dark side, or as much info about Palpatine. Obi-Wan does have the largest advantage of all however, knowing Anakin's fighting at the back of his hand.