Tyson vs Ali

Originally posted by teampac08
Umm no. That version just has an even better chance, but Ali will probably take that fight. And which boxing historians are you talking about, there's probably some but the majority will favor Ali. First off Tyson is one of my favorite boxers off all time, but even I know Ali takes it. Tyson at that age was great, but he was never tested against a true and legit opponent. Prime Ali vs Prime Tyson is a great fight indeed but Ali will just outbox him. Like I already said, Tyson will have big trouble against a good, tall boxer who uses his range. Ali takes this, he's faster and his evasive abilities are just too great for Tyson to overcome. I do agree that Tyson has a puncher's chance, just like any other fighter who can land a good, clean punch on anyone else. Most likely wont happen though.

I know he's got to be kidding.Yeah in that version Tyson has a better chance yes but Ali still will win.and your right,which historians are being referred to here because the majority have said Ali wins.Like i said,I wondered about that a long time myself but then came to my senses eventually because as you and others have said,Ali was way too smart a fighter to allow Tyson to get him with his uppercut punch.Prime Ali vs Prime Tyson would be a good battle alright but like you said,Ali has just way too good evasive skills plus much better smarts than Tyson to overcome.Thats what I said earlier as well also that Tyson was never truely tested against a true and legit opponet.Like i said earlier,I was watching one of Tysons early fights in his career when he got off to like a 30 and 0 start and even the announcer said that Tyson hadnt really faught much tough competition.

Originally posted by teampac08
I agree. I know that he has great underrated defense. His bobbing and weaving was very hard to overcome. Thing is, it would still be incredibly hard to hit a prime Ali as well. Ali had great defense. Tyson was quick with his punches too, but Ali had even quicker hands in his prime. I wouldnt be surprised if Tyson knocked down Ali. But I would expect Ali to come back up if this were to happen and still outbox him. Tyson's endurance was never really tested in his prime either. I dont expect him to last the distance with Ali, and if he did it would still be a decision in Ali's favor. Trust me, Tyson would have a harder time tagging Ali then Ali hitting Tyson. Ali's proven himself against countless hard hitters. Liston, Foreman, Frazier, Cooper, Shavers, etc. Has Tyson proven himself against a boxer who uses range and quick punches like Ali?

Yeah if Tyson had faught tough competition like those guys early in his career that were hard hitters like Liston, Forman, Frazier, Cooper, Shavers ext.No way in hell would he have ever gone off to a 30 and 0 start like he did.Tyson never faced top notch quality competition like that where Ali proved himself time and time again against the toughest hitters such as them.Like you said,Ali had quicker hands in his prime and like you said,Tysons endurance was never tested early on in his career and there were many question marks about him even early on if he could last late in the rounds because of that.When boxers took him late into the rounds like Holyfield and Douglass did late in his career,he got knocked out.Also like you said, even early on,Tyson had a soft chin.He didnt have good endurance like Ali did,he never faught much tough competition early on,he had a weak chin. Yeah Tyson might have been able to knock him down, but like you said, Ali had way too much heart in him,that he wouldnt allow that to keep him down,he would get back up from it.Where Tysons heart was questioned as well that if Ali knocked Tyson down,he has no heart so he stays down and its a knockout.Ali wins everytime.

Originally posted by Mr Parker
Yeah if Tyson had faught tough competition like those guys early in his career that were hard hitters like Liston, Forman, Frazier, Cooper, Shavers ext.No way in hell would he have ever gone off to a 30 and 0 start like he did.Tyson never faced top notch quality competition like that where Ali proved himself time and time again against the toughest hitters such as them.Like you said,Ali had quicker hands in his prime and like you said,Tysons endurance was never tested early on in his career and there were many question marks about him even early on if he could last late in the rounds because of that.When boxers took him late into the rounds like Holyfield and Douglass did late in his career,he got knocked out.Also like you said, even early on,Tyson had a soft chin.He didnt have good endurance like Ali did,he never faught much tough competition early on,he had a weak chin. Yeah Tyson might have been able to knock him down, but like you said, Ali had way too much heart in him,that he wouldnt allow that to keep him down,he would get back up from it.Where Tysons heart was questioned as well that if Ali knocked Tyson down,he has no heart so he stays down and its a knockout.Ali wins everytime.

Tyson fought plenty of quality fighters, and beat them fairly soundly. Mitch Green, Trevor Berbick, Terrel Biggs to name a few. Berbick actually defeated Ali(albeit a waaay past his prime Ali) and was known as a very skilled fighter.

In fact, most of the above listed were undoubtly equal if not superior to Ali in terms of stamina, conditioning, durability and power. They were quick heavy weights too. Mitch green and Biggs actually had an Ali type fighting style. In fact, many boxers during this age do.

The only way I can see Ali winning this match, at least a first one between these two - would be if all the same rules that gave him so many advantages were still in play(i.e. excessive holding, talking schmack during fights, using the ropes for stability, etc)

Ali would not survive a prime Tyson without these advantages, and would fall quickly to his relentless onslaught in any first time match up with Tyson.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
tyson wouldnt know what to do against the great one. He'd piss his pants

I actually think Ali's bravado would work against a humbled Mike in this fight. Watch some of Mike's early fights, when he was humble - he was a much more focused in the ring, and a much more technical boxer. He wouldn't throw wild punches right away, and always kept his guard up.

Originally posted by Thundar
Tyson fought plenty of quality fighters, and beat them fairly soundly. Mitch Green, Trevor Berbick, Terrel Biggs to name a few. Berbick actually defeated Ali(albeit a waaay past his prime Ali) and was known as a very skilled fighter.

In fact, most of the above listed were undoubtly equal if not superior to Ali in terms of stamina, conditioning, durability and power. They were quick heavy weights too. Mitch green and Biggs actually had an Ali type fighting style. In fact, many boxers during this age do.

The only way I can see Ali winning this match, at least a first one between these two - would be if all the same rules that gave him so many advantages were still in play(i.e. excessive holding, talking schmack during fights, using the ropes for stability, etc)

Ali would not survive a prime Tyson without these advantages, and would fall quickly to his relentless onslaught in any first time match up with Tyson.

Haha, you're comparing these fighters to Ali? That's just ridiculous. Point is Tyson never fought anyone as good as Ali but Ali's fought people much better than Tyson. A prime Ali's range and quickness will frustrate Tyson. His jab was very reliable and he had good combinations. Not that he'd be dumb enough to trade punches with Tyson, but if he had the chance to hit an exhausted Tyson he would.

Originally posted by teampac08
Haha, you're comparing these fighters to Ali? That's just ridiculous. Point is Tyson never fought anyone as good as Ali but Ali's fought people much better than Tyson. A prime Ali's range and quickness will frustrate Tyson. His jab was very reliable and he had good combinations. Not that he'd be dumb enough to trade punches with Tyson, but if he had the chance to hit an exhausted Tyson he would.

not all fights, particularly in the heavyweight division, rest on ability...a single well connected punch is enough to lay flat anyone. and tyson could throw lightning quick and monsterously powerful punches seemingly from nowhere and took out a lot of fast footed boxers that way

you cant say his opponents were shit either...

spinks....W31...L1 (against tyson)
Ruddock...37 wins out of 43 fights
frank bruno...40 wins out of 45 fights
tucker...58 out of 66

they're hardly journeymen

Originally posted by jaden101
not all fights, particularly in the heavyweight division, rest on ability...a single well connected punch is enough to lay flat anyone. and tyson could throw lightning quick and monsterously powerful punches seemingly from nowhere and took out a lot of fast footed boxers that way

you cant say his opponents were shit either...

spinks....W31...L1 (against tyson)
Ruddock...37 wins out of 43 fights
frank bruno...40 wins out of 45 fights
tucker...58 out of 66

they're hardly journeymen

Again, why are you comparing these guys to Ali or his competition? They're not in the same league in terms of what they can do in the ring. Take a look at Ali's competition, and then the people you mentioned. It's seriously a joke if you think Tyson took on great fighters. Man, I love Tyson and all but he's overrated. Of course it takes one punch to put anyone down, but Ali's footwork and jab is a very good defense. Not to mention he's capable of getting off the ground when he gets knocked down. Anyone has a puncher's chance, but more often than not the fight is goin to the more talented and smarter boxer. Frank Bruno? Wow, that's just hilarious.

Originally posted by teampac08
Again, why are you comparing these guys to Ali or his competition? They're not in the same league in terms of what they can do in the ring. Take a look at Ali's competition, and then the people you mentioned. It's seriously a joke if you think Tyson took on great fighters. Man, I love Tyson and all but he's overrated. Of course it takes one punch to put anyone down, but Ali's footwork and jab is a very good defense. Not to mention he's capable of getting off the ground when he gets knocked down. Anyone has a puncher's chance, but more often than not the fight is goin to the more talented and smarter boxer. Frank Bruno? Wow, that's just hilarious.

I think most people will agree that Ali would take the majority. I do as well. But, the threadmaker's intention is pitting Ali against Mikey when Mike was in his prime.

I know my opinion doesn't count for much here. But, it is my personal feeling that Tyson in his prime (w/ Damato by his side) was the greatest boxer ever. That being said, when you take into account Tyson's whole career it wasn't all that impressive.

I've probably beaten a dead horse on this thread, but if so it was because I was always on the edge of my seat when Tyson fought in his earlier years. He created so much excitment....was like watching Jordan in his earlier years...never what he was capable of or going to do.

Tyson was going to KO his opponent. You knew it; I knew it; the crowd knew it; Mike knew it; heck, his opponent knew it. 😬

It was just a matter of when. You could not say this about any boxer who stepped into the squared circle everytime.

I firmly believe that Tyson in his prime with his peek a boo style and Damato by side, would have taken the majority against Ali. Tyson would not have been frustrated by Ali and his taunting, nor his tactics, because he had Damato in his corner. Does anyone remember seeing a clip on 20/20 with Barbara Walters by his side....the Robin Givens one?

Might be before most of your time here. But, he was shown in his training w/ Damato throwing 4 blistering jabs in less than a second. Now, there are probably a lot of boxers that could actually do this, but what power would they behind it?

You can Ali, and I would say: "How could I argue against the greatest? But, there's no denying that for speculative purposes Mike had the skill sets/weapons, was in the right frame of mind, and ahd the right people in his corner to take Ali down-better and faster than anyone Ali has faced."

Now I know Tyson is strong guys but Ali's taken harder shots. He was getting pounded by Foreman but he was able to take the win. Granted, yes Tyson's quicker than Foreman but Ali would still be able to take the punches. He also fought Shavers, who also hit harder than Tyson. Tyson, even in his prime would have a hard time hitting a prime Ali. And even if he did get some good shots Ali would be able to take the punishment. Ali was a very smart boxer, his footwork and jab was very good. When speed or range didnt work, he still relied on other smart tactics like clinching when the opponent got too close and of course the rope-a-dope. A lot of those knockouts Tyson had were due to poor competition and the fact that many of those fighters had lost confidence in themselves. They feared getting hit by Tyson. I doubt Ali, one of the cockiest fighters around, would show fear towards Tyson.

Tyson would lose hands down. Tyson was a short, power-punching type boxer. But with all that power I guess he never felt the need to work on defense. Therefore if a fight ever got pass the 5th or 6th round he was suspect to being took down. That's why he lost to Buster Douglass back in the day. Ali would have a longer reach, and he's faster, so he could just frustrate Tyson with his jab all day. Ali could definitely last past the 5th round, rope-a-dope anyone? Still I'm not sure pitting anyone from the 60's against someone from the 90's is fair. Tyson grew up with hormones (if he didn't take them as steroids, they were in his food) that probably contributed to his power. Ali grew up in a time where all the advances in food proccessing and steroids that exist now weren't in effect, so he has a built in disadvantage.

ya i agree wit that last post

Originally posted by Thundar
I was watching some of the old Tyson fights on youtube, and I'm of the opinion that if both fighters were in their prime, Tyson would turn out to be the victor.

Tyson was like a force of nature in his prime. Ali was a skilled boxer, but Tyson fought a many skilled boxers who would have given Ali much trouble. These same skilled boxers were always taken out by Iron Mike in the first round of their bouts.

People tend to also forget how skilled of a fighter Tyson was under the training of Gus Damato. He was unnaturally quick for a man of his size and girth, and had some of the best footwork and defensive fighting stances that I've ever seen on a heavyweight.

All this aside, Mike had an unnatural amount of power in his punches. IMO, he was without a doubt the hardest puncher to ever step into the ring(punching even harder than Foreman and Marciano).

A combination of this speed and unnatural punching power, as well as his well above average boxing abilities would have made Tyson the best heavyweight ever, if it weren't for the passing of Damato.

Unfortunately after Damato, Tyson was mishandled by a lot of people and trainers, who concentrated more on fear and intimidation in his style, instead of the well rounded training that Damato had instilled in Mike.

Instead of trying to box people, Tyson would come out in later fights trying to use this fear and intimidation strategy, as well as always trying to get the one punch knockout in his later bouts. This style, as well as his ever increasing arrogance, lead to the once great fighters fall from among the greatest.

What are your opinions? Who do you think would win this battle of champions and why?

Man you got to be kidding me. Have you not seen the thrilla in manilla, ali vs frazier? Foreman was fighting well into his late 40's and still knocking fools out on the pro circuit. frazier and foreman in their priome are champs today and would give tyson tyson in his prime a top notch competition.

BobbyD brings up some good points, though, I admit. In his prime with his original trainer in his corner Tyson was really good, even one of the best, but against Ali or even Frazier Mike tyson would have to deliver his power for more than 5 rounds.

Frank Bruno? Wow, that's just hilarious.

what's funny exactly...you dont become WBC champion by being shit at boxing...granted he didn't have the mentality to be great but if he did..coupled with being 6'3 and having an 82' reach...he could have been great

Ali fought...looking at his record...3 great fighters...Frazier, Foreman and Norton...and had defeats against 2 of those as well when he was supposed to have been in his prime.

its obvious most people on here who blindly say Ali would win are doing so because he's been hyped up over decades as being a better fighter than he actually was...mostly due to his charisma and controversy that surrounded him as a fighter...

Tyson grew up with hormones (if he didn't take them as steroids, they were in his food) that probably contributed to his power. Ali grew up in a time where all the advances in food proccessing and steroids that exist now weren't in effect, so he has a built in disadvantage.

athletes in all sports are better now than they ever were and illegal drug taking was more rife then because there was no way to detect it...

proof?

best champions of their respective ages

Marciano...

Ali

Tyson

if you're going by records alone then Marciano should beat the shit out of both of them...but clearly that wouldn't happen

jaden101, I'm hyping Ali? No, you're hyping Tyson. Ali is a proven champion against better competition. Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Shavers, Liston, and even Cooper were all better competition than the bums Tyson fought. By the way, did I ever bring up Marciano into this? I know Tyson and Ali would beat him. He's too small, Marciano has a light heavyweight's body. Seriously who has Tyson fought that could be put up in the same caliber as Ali's opponents? When you think Tyson would beat Ali, based on his performance against lower competition, then that's overhyping a boxer. Ali has formidable size against Tyson as well. He's 6'3 and a reach of 80'. Ali's footwork and overall speed in his prime was a lot better than Tyson's. He's a smart boxer, and he would give Tyson fits in the ring. Yeah Tyson would win if Ali just slugged it out with him, but Ali isn't dumb. He'd put range between himself and Tyson using his fast jab and quick feet.

Regardless of who won, it would be a great one to see.

I think Ali would get either a KO or a TKO within 7 rounds.

Originally posted by teampac08
jaden101, I'm hyping Ali? No, you're hyping Tyson. Ali is a proven champion against better competition. Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Shavers, Liston, and even Cooper were all better competition than the bums Tyson fought. By the way, did I ever bring up Marciano into this? I know Tyson and Ali would beat him. He's too small, Marciano has a light heavyweight's body. Seriously who has Tyson fought that could be put up in the same caliber as Ali's opponents? When you think Tyson would beat Ali, based on his performance against lower competition, then that's overhyping a boxer. Ali has formidable size against Tyson as well. He's 6'3 and a reach of 80'. Ali's footwork and overall speed in his prime was a lot better than Tyson's. He's a smart boxer, and he would give Tyson fits in the ring. Yeah Tyson would win if Ali just slugged it out with him, but Ali isn't dumb. He'd put range between himself and Tyson using his fast jab and quick feet.

shavers?...he lost 14 fights in his career...thats not the mark of a great boxer....and cooper was a journeyman without doubt who also lost 14 fights...most of which came against nobodys.

i brought marciano into it to show headreks point is invalid.

you say Ali has formidable size...every fighter that Tyson fought had a size, weight and reach advantage...he was only 5'10"...makes it even more remarkable that he destroyed so many people in the ring

Tyson fought against quick, ranged fighters...what happened?...he leathered them something fierce.

i'll say one thing...it would be a great fight...and i'm not even claiming tyson would win...just addressing the fact that most people in here say Ali would win just because he's Ali and he's supposed to be the greatest fighter ever....well if thats the case he would never have been defeated...he was...

Originally posted by jaden101
you say Ali has formidable size...every fighter that Tyson fought had a size, weight and reach advantage...he was only 5'10"...makes it even more remarkable that he destroyed so many people in the ring

👆

Even if Ali won, Tyson would be no push-over.

Ali has the speed & height adavntage, as well as better endurance. But Tyson is just one loco vato you dont wanna underestimate.

Originally posted by jaden101
shavers?...he lost 14 fights in his career...thats not the mark of a great boxer....and cooper was a journeyman without doubt who also lost 14 fights...most of which came against nobodys.

i brought marciano into it to show headreks point is invalid.

you say Ali has formidable size...every fighter that Tyson fought had a size, weight and reach advantage...he was only 5'10"...makes it even more remarkable that he destroyed so many people in the ring

Tyson fought against quick, ranged fighters...what happened?...he leathered them something fierce.

i'll say one thing...it would be a great fight...and i'm not even claiming tyson would win...just addressing the fact that most people in here say Ali would win just because he's Ali and he's supposed to be the greatest fighter ever....well if thats the case he would never have been defeated...he was...

I feel that it would be a great fight as well. I put up Shavers and Cooper in there for examples to prove that Ali could take a hit. Cooper and Shavers would lose to Tyson as well. Yes Tyson fought some quick, ranged fighters but were any of them as talented or as smart as Ali? Ali in his prime probably had the quickest hands and best footwork out of any heavyweight ever. Dont get me wrong Tyson would land some good punches here and there but Ali's jab would land a lot more often. He'll land his combinations a lot more often than Tyson will too. Only thing that Tyson has as an advantage is power. Ali had better speed, a better chin, was a whole lot smarter, better endurance, and a better grasp of the fundamentals. Styles make fights and Ali would be a nightmare matchup for Tyson. A long range, quick fighter who had decent power and superb defense.

Originally posted by teampac08
I feel that it would be a great fight as well. I put up Shavers and Cooper in there for examples to prove that Ali could take a hit. Cooper and Shavers would lose to Tyson as well. Yes Tyson fought some quick, ranged fighters but were any of them as talented or as smart as Ali? Ali in his prime probably had the quickest hands and best footwork out of any heavyweight ever. Dont get me wrong Tyson would land some good punches here and there but Ali's jab would land a lot more often. He'll land his combinations a lot more often than Tyson will too. Only thing that Tyson has as an advantage is power. Ali had better speed, a better chin, was a whole lot smarter, better endurance, and a better grasp of the fundamentals. Styles make fights and Ali would be a nightmare matchup for Tyson. A long range, quick fighter who had decent power and superb defense.

indeed...but looks like the days of fighters of both their calibre are gone...instead we get Valuev the 7ft monster who got beat in his last fight

klitchko is even coming back despite the fact that he was rubbish...and there's even talk of Lewis coming out of retirement...

Originally posted by jaden101
indeed...but looks like the days of fighters of both their calibre are gone...instead we get Valuev the 7ft monster who got beat in his last fight

klitchko is even coming back despite the fact that he was rubbish...and there's even talk of Lewis coming out of retirement...

Yeah the heavyweight division is garbage. The better fighters are found at the lower divisions. To me the best one has got to be the junior lightweight division. You got Pacquiao, Barrera, Marquez, Morales, Soto, Guzman, and Valero. Now that's a lot of talent in one division.