Originally posted by DarkCrawlerCap being able to go toe-to-toe against Namor has always been a curious subject. He just does. Namor has taken a smaller share of fights too. But Cap does better than most people would ever give him credit for. Frankly, I thought jinzin would be the last person to be one. Go figure.
Has Cap actually KOed a Namor level opponent? I have seen him hurt and knock down them plenty, even guys like Hulk, but he has usually been demolished by Namor pretty easily when he doesn't hold back. See Order for example. I don't really see Cap taking more then 1 win, and that is when Namor is holding back like he usually does against Cap. Don't really see why Namor couldn't just snatch the shield from the air if he throws it (like he has done before) or simply take it from his hands (like he has also done before).
Although Namor has taken Cap's shield away, it's far from a guaranteed plan. Here's a scan of Namor wrestling with Cap's shield. Trying to take it, or push it out the way, whatever... not easy to understand it... but what happens after is. Namor gets flung aside and brought to the ground. The following page has him on his knees looking up at a discombobulated Cap. My interpretation of how Cap could accomplish that is he uses Namor's own momentum against him. Namor tries to go straight forward through the shield strongly. Cap veers him to one side in the second panel, causing Namor to fumble a bit to his left. As Namor tries to reassert his footing and pull his weight back to the center by shifting right, Cap then swiftly adds his own leverage to Namor's readjustment and Namor completely stumbles past him. Sounds like classic Cap to me, make opponent's their own worst enemy to find a way:
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Cap being able to go toe-to-toe against Namor has always been a curious subject. He just does. Namor has taken a smaller share of fights too. But Cap does better than most people would ever give him credit for. Frankly, I thought jinzin would be the last person to be one. Go figure.Although Namor has taken Cap's shield away, it's far from a guaranteed plan. Here's a scan of Namor wrestling with Cap's shield. Trying to take it, or push it out the way, whatever... not easy to understand it... but what happens after is. Namor gets flung aside and brought to the ground. The following page has him on his knees looking up at a discombobulated Cap. My interpretation of how Cap could accomplish that is he uses Namor's own momentum against him. Namor tries to go straight forward through the shield strongly. Cap veers him to one side in the second panel, causing Namor to fumble a bit to his left. As Namor tries to reassert his footing and pull his weight back to the center by shifting right, Cap then swiftly adds his own leverage to Namor's readjustment and Namor completely stumbles past him. Sounds like classic Cap to me, make opponent's their own worst enemy to find a way:
Great Dialogue In That scan
Originally posted by Redatom65If you're joking about Cap's stuttering, that is because he had just awaken from being frozen and was completely out of his depth. He's trying to say "Bucky," because he's wondering where he is. Namor tells him Bucky's dead. Eventually, Namor uses Cap's discombobulated state and gets past him by advancing in a non-threatening manner and gently takes his shield away and Cap lets him.
Great Dialogue In That scan
As soon as Namor chops off the hand of the scientist he was trying to attack the whole time, Cap goes back to defender mode and tackles Namor. So considering Cap's head is all messed up and he still performs this deft move was pretty kewl. Namor himself comments how Cap's protecting instinct is so ingrained, he can still fight in such a state.
Originally posted by BuccaneerI guess we disagree with each other then. I am of the opinion that it's exactly the type of outmaneuvering that Cap can bring to a fight between he and Namor.
It made for a clumsy situation for Namor, but not for a case of Cap being able to outmaneuver Namor in any way.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Cap being able to go toe-to-toe against Namor has always been a curious subject. He just does. Namor has taken a smaller share of fights too. But Cap does better than most people would ever give him credit for. Frankly, I thought jinzin would be the last person to be one. Go figure.Although Namor has taken Cap's shield away, it's far from a guaranteed plan. Here's a scan of Namor wrestling with Cap's shield. Trying to take it, or push it out the way, whatever... not easy to understand it... but what happens after is. Namor gets flung aside and brought to the ground. The following page has him on his knees looking up at a discombobulated Cap. My interpretation of how Cap could accomplish that is he uses Namor's own momentum against him. Namor tries to go straight forward through the shield strongly. Cap veers him to one side in the second panel, causing Namor to fumble a bit to his left. As Namor tries to reassert his footing and pull his weight back to the center by shifting right, Cap then swiftly adds his own leverage to Namor's readjustment and Namor completely stumbles past him. Sounds like classic Cap to me, make opponent's their own worst enemy to find a way:
Wait a minute, we have a high class 100 ton guy, who has been fighting for decades, who also throws around battleships like toys, against a "peak human".
Im sorry, that scan is PIS, Namor could take caps shield from him, while ripping his are off like it was Newspaper, with just one hand
Come on...........
Originally posted by ApolloknightIf you would humor me, I shall endeavor to explain why I don't think it is PIS. In my experience, few things are. These authors love comics as much as we do. And the more I think that way, the more I've found if you think hard enough, things start making sense. Here is why the above situation makes sense to me. Cap's shield absorbs force correct? If you apply force directly on it, it is dampened enough that Cap can keep his footing by applying only his own strength in the opposite direction. Hence, why he can withstand shots from Hulk and such. It has to do with the molecular makeup of the vibranium and steel from which it was forged. We agree on that much, right? Ok.
Wait a minute, we have a high class 100 ton guy, who has been fighting for decades, who also throws around battleships like toys, against a "peak human".Im sorry, that scan is PIS, Namor could take caps shield from him, while ripping his are off like it was Newspaper, with just one hand
Come on...........
Look at what Namor is doing in the 1st panel. He is pushing directly against the shield. Applied force is force nonetheless. Look at his hand placement. His left and right hand are on the edges pushing against Cap's shield straight into Cap. Pay attention to Cap's arm and shoulder as well. Now, this panel alone makes sense. Namor is pushing against Cap and Cap's force dampening shield and Cap's strength from behind allows him to remain in a standstill.
Now what happens in the second panel? Cap twists the shield to his right. You see how this is so, because Namor's hands have turned towards his left respectively and Cap's arm looks turned as well. He doesn't just move the shield to his right, he rotates it as well. A full twist. Imagine if you were as strong as Namor. You're pushing against this confounded shield with your strength, class 100 strength maybe... and then the darn thing moves and rotates to your left suddenly. If you were Namor, you'd either fly towards the side and lose your grip because of the immense force you've committed to pushing, or you would try to regain your footing and shift your weight back. But you'd need a lot of strength and countermovement to regain your footing right? After all, Cap is redirecting your class 100 strength.
Which Cap was exactly counting on as he completely twists and draws the shield back to his left, using Namor's own attempt to readjust from his initial stumble to create momentum and fling Namor aside. This is a classic wrestling move and classic martial arts. Grapple, feint right, force stumble left with opponent's own momentum. It makes more sense with Cap's special shield that dampens applied force, but does not take away the tremendous strength that Namor has committed. How does that work for you?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If you would humor me, I shall endeavor to explain why I don't think it is PIS. In my experience, few things are. These authors love comics as much as we do.
More so in some cases, which makes writers more biased if they are writing for a favorite character, such as cap.
This is not an acceptable excuses for everything a streetleveler does.
This is not a way to explain, even when outmatched in every category, and tremendously outclassed in strength, like a bebe gun against a Tank.
This is why we have PIS/CIS on this forum, because writers can be biased, and write their streetlevelers doing dumb stupid things. Cap is no exception, as with wolverine, black panther, batman etc....
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And the more I think that way, the more I've found if you think hard enough, things start making sense.
Sometimes, its easily to be blinded by thought consumed by more thought.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Cap's shield absorbs force correct? If you apply force directly on it, it is dampened enough that Cap can keep his footing by applying only his own strength in the opposite direction. Hence, why he can withstand shots from Hulk and such. It has to do with the molecular makeup of the vibranium and steel from which it was forged. We agree on that much, right? Ok.
See this is were your wrong, caps shield does absorb force, but vibranium does have limits, if this limit is reached, he can be knocked back even if he directly blocks said attack with shield.
Iron fist for one, has proven this.
http://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capironfist3hi6.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capironfist4qg9.jpg
And IF has proven it again....
http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=103lv.jpg
Is cap ok, Yes.
Is the shield intact, Yes, but not due to the vibranium, but the adamatium and steel alloy which is also mixed with the shield, which we all know, adamatium is pretty much indestructible, but doesn't absorb force, and can be knocked around.
Is Black panther Ok, no, is his vibranium suit intact, NO, IF took the vibranium to its kinetic force limit. his suit couldn't hold the energy being directed at it, and broke down. Simple
What do we have, IF, with his "IF" attack, which IMO is at least class 15-20 attacks, knocked cap back, and shredded panthers suit.
Namors strength>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>IF
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Look at what Namor is doing in the 1st panel. He is pushing directly against the shield. Applied force is force nonetheless.
No, it absorbs the kinetic force of blunt impacts
If someone where to place their hands on vibranium, and begin to push, you could push it, just as long as you don't release you grip, and try to charge it, you'll drop like a fly, unless your force is greater then the limits of the vibranium. Slow force applied to it, will not be negated.
Need proof
http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=29ya1.jpg
I believe Ironman, one of the smartest in all of marvel, understands what I just said, question is, Do you?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
How does that work for you?
Didnt need to quote the rest of your argument since your entire argument is based off vibranium absorbing everything that touches it.
Point.
Namor can do anything he wants to caps shields, He could, Punch the shield with his 65,000 ton battleship tossing strength, and while cap might block it, the kinetic force of the vibranium will be overloaded, and cap will go flying through every building accoss four city blocks, because, as you have no choice but to accept.....
Namors strength>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Iron fist
He could, grab the shield, and push cap through whatever he wants, he could grab the shield, take it from cap while ripping his arm off with it, and beat him to death with it, like I said, he can do whatever the hell he wants.
He is FAAAAAAAAAR to strong for cap.
This fight is a slaughter,
namor shitstomps cap 10/10
