Scott's Teams VS Cap's team 1 day prep. each.

Oh yeah BW if you want to cling to this Stranger feat so much then Juggernaut could pretty much destroy most of your team including Iceman.

OK then you like to bring up the Stranger feat so much I'll bring the Juggernaut Nightmare fight. And I know you know everything i say is true because you saw the scans 😈

Anyways Nightmare was a being that imprisoned Eternity, was mind Raping Strange, and altering reality all at the same time.

Juggernaut comes in and using a huge vortex shrinks the massive Nightmare to fighting size. Then commences to fight him. Later on Juggernaut shoots a magic bolt of concussive force so strong it actually shatters the bonds holding Eternity. Then Juggernaut is thrown into Oblivion where he survives unscathed

So now how about this as a plan BW if you want to keep up with the Stranger feat so much. Cain Marko simply puts up his shield and then shrinks the rest of Iceman's team along with Iceman. Now Cain then shoots his magic globule's KOing or killing everyone on your team like Aquaman and all those guys all those guys. Only Diana would probably resist the shrinking.

Now Cain then continues to shrink Iceman down with his vortex until Iceman enters the Microverse.

Now one thing we do know about Iceman is even though his consciousness can live without a body it is still relative. Meaning Iceman still only sees things in a human sized perspective.

For one thing we know that he cannot see the molecules he is effecting just that he does. He does not possess microspoic vision of any kind. We also know that Iceman doesn't zip around the world instnatious at any given point. Why because his human sized consciousness can't percieve those things.

So once Iceman is shrunken down to the Microverse Iceman no longer is a factor seeing as all he would see is atoms. He wouldn't know what is happening outside in the fight. He couldn't effect things because he wouldn't know what is going on. Iceman would effectively be BFRed from the fight and now is basically out of the fight.
And that isn't even everything Cain could do.

Cain can open a portal to another deminsion and throw everyone through (D'Spayre did this using cain's powers before)

Cain as shown by a child weilding the gem causes the ground to come to life and consume Iceman effectivly trapping him seeing how he can only move through Water based elements. Which the ground is mostly not

So now Iceman is not only worthless he is also beaten 😛

ermm...Juggs does not have those powers anymore dude. 😬

"This desperate, suicidal move turned out to be his blessing, for the dimension’s consciousness considered him a bacteria it wanted to get rid off. Having enough of his constant dis- and re-appearing, it offered the Juggernaut a deal – in exchange for the magical knowledge he had acquired while in the Crimson Cosmos, it would restore his youth and send him back home. "

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=96&page=3

Id say more but Im in the middle of a movie.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
ermm...Juggs does not have those powers anymore dude. 😬

"This desperate, suicidal move turned out to be his blessing, for the dimension’s consciousness considered him a bacteria it wanted to get rid off. Having enough of his constant dis- and re-appearing, it offered the Juggernaut a deal – in exchange for the magical knowledge he had acquired while in the Crimson Cosmos, it would restore his youth and send him back home. "

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=96&page=3

Id say more but Im in the middle of a movie.

Seriously besides the fact that most of the stuff I said Cain could do like open portals, Make inanimate objects well let's just sya he did all those things after that event anyways.
Basically a possessed Cain tapped into more of his power grew 80 feet tall and began to smash through deminsions. All after his knowledge lost. Trust me Cian knows he can do a lot of things and shrinking is well within his power set.
Seriously BW all he lost was some knowledge not his power and since it was his power that did it to think he couldn't do it again is I'll say it STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 😬

Honestly your going to sit here and tell me cain can't so those things even though they are well within his power more so then ICeman Flash Freezing Superman 😉

but....Iceman KNOWS to do those things. He has done them before, and knows about it. Cain....has done nothing after that unless it was under someone else's "mind"

So....no.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
but....Iceman KNOWS to do those things. He has done them before, and knows about it. Cain....has done nothing after that unless it was under someone else's "mind"

So....no.

The only reason why he never got to use them again is because that is the peroid he begans to become to depowered 😉

Once again a child in possession of the Gem shows Cain that he can make inanimate Objects come to life. Can make avenegers at half their power. So trust me it wasn't the last time Cian got to see his powers on full go. He just never really got the chance to use them agai nafter that.

So yes Cain does have all previous knowledge back 😄

Iceman looses to Cain at Classic Levels 😎

Thing is SOMEONE ELSE did all those things. (The kid). Besides its not just him going INTO the dimension, its just something he happened to pick up there

Oh and the thing about Iceman vs Superman? I just checked my favorite thread and 36 pages of debate disagree with the fact that Superman would solidly win 😬

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Thing is SOMEONE ELSE did all those things. (The kid). Besides its not just him going INTO the dimension, its just something he happened to pick up there

Oh and the thing about Iceman vs Superman? I just checked my favorite thread and 36 pages of debate disagree with the fact that Superman would solidly win 😬

Secondly Cain really didn't learn much more then he can inside the Crimson Cosmos as he did outside. What you are also failing to realize is these are things Cain taught himself to do. Just like Cian taught himself how to launch the gobules 😉 Trust me being just being i nthe Crimson Cosmos is enough. Cain is directly attached to it as stated by Doctor Strange on two occassions 😉
Would you like me to continue....

I would like to point out 16 pages mean nothing the Wolveirne Spiderman page is over a hundred pages of talk doesn't mean all of it shows what should happen.

The point is Superman just has to much known energy for Iceman to handle far beyond anything he ahs done. Now beating Iceman and withstanding him are two different things that I will agree on but Iceman isn't beating or messing with Superman 😉

OK BW just because I know what your going to post and I need to take a shower I'm gonna go ahead and reply.

I know that the thing said he forgot how to do those things. I will point out though that Cain never forgot about those things. He would just have to relearn them and seeing how so many people showed him similar abilities. He understands just how much power has he isn't stupid BW.

Yes he did self teach himself all of those abilities. I know he said Some tricks I picked up but the fact is that besides Cyttorak there really isn't any life in the Crimson Cosmos as remarked by Strange when Cyttorak held them captive. So yes even in the Crimson Cosmos he taught himself how to do those.

Honestly he know he can do these things. He knows he has done them before. In bloodlust he using basically all his power. Yet your trying to tell me he can't do these things even though he never lost his power to do so 😬

Yes I just said that Iceman can't freeze Superman again even though you had 36 pages worth of debate on it. Yes I'm saying that those pages really don't matter even though I know the pride you take in that thread. The fact is besides Stranger(A very inconsistent being) Iceman has never messed with that kind of energy and until you show me he can he can't PERIOD.

Have fun BW I may be able to reply one more time before going to work. 😛

Ill get back to this later...just wanted to bump it.

A note to take on, Superman knows nothing about Iceman. Iceman can exist as water vapor (the very same that is already present in the air), and as we know Superman needs air to breath, and has in the past been shown to drink and eat. That means that he metabolizes them, which simply means they pass his bio-matrix. Iceman can exist inside of him and mess him up in various ways. Freezing his blood (which he has been shown to have) and other different ways of freezing him.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Ill get back to this later...just wanted to bump it.

A note to take on, Superman knows nothing about Iceman. Iceman can exist as water vapor (the very same that is already present in the air), and as we know Superman needs air to breath, and has in the past been shown to drink and eat. That means that he metabolizes them, which simply means they pass his bio-matrix. Iceman can exist inside of him and mess him up in various ways. Freezing his blood (which he has been shown to have) and other different ways of freezing him.

Still Superman has shown to go without eating or drinking completely sustained on sunlight seems to prove he needs water at all.

Also freezing is still freezing BW no matter which way you look at it. Superman can still vibrate his molecules faster than Iceman could attempt to freeze him along with the constant energy he gets from sunlight.

Ok once again I'm going to just go ahead and respond to your post BW. Why because it is very fun to see if I post what your going to.

Once again back on the topic of Cain I knew you would go there BW. Why because I gave a very reasonable way to take out Iceman didn't I 😖hifty:

Anyways back unto the topic at hand. I know that your going to tell me that Cain simply can not do it. That he forgot how to do it. Therefore how could he simply do them again.

I keep telling you BW all he forgot was how to do them. He didn't forget that he did them nor did he actually loose the power to do those things. He simply forgot how to do so.

I'll use a good example for you to highlight the idea. Say Iceman (😛)is told to get out of a place he has to loose the knowledge of how to say turn himself into Water Vapor. Hence would you say he could never turn into Water Vapor again. Even though he remembers the feat, Has seen Emma do the same thing with his powers, and he has suffered no power loss. No you would say he could do it BW.

See what I'm getting at BW. Cain knows he did it, Has seen other people use his powers in a similar manner, and in this fight he has all his power. Thus his ability to do said feat is in intact for this fight why because he can do it.

As for Iceman freezing Superman BW. Once again your overestimating the idea that Iceman can freeze anything he wants. His power is good his power level isn't. He can't effect planets nor can he began to and has never shown that type of power even under the control of Emma. The fact is that Superman has a constant supply of energy given to him that Iceman has to overcome. Along with the fact that Superman has energy reserves fueling him constantly.

The fact is any living being that survives in space unaided should be immune to Iceman's powers. Why because Iceman has never shown absolute zero before.

Now I know your going to say but he froze the Stranger's ship. Fine did the ship have a constant energy source. No it didn't. Also man made materials can survive in space does that mean they are just as durable as the stranger's Ship. Does this mean that man made objects can with stand absolute zero no they can not. Can they survive freezing no they can not. I would like to point out BW that most of the materials that go into space couldn't even survive freezing from Liquid Nitrogen.

The point is BW that inorganic substances such as Stranger's ship and living organisms are different things from man made materials. A living thing surviving in the cold vacuum of space is truely an amazing feat. Seeing as their body uninsulated is surviving direct contact with close to absolute zero temperatures. Superman surviving in space shows that his body contains enough energy to prevent him from being "frozen". Also BW I could point out that superman's Ice breath has done better feats than Iceman's freezing. Superman can freeze an entire ocean. ICeman has frozen what that is comparable. Point Superman survives having that kind of cold in him already you honestly think that Iceman can do better. Iceman doesn't have a chance.

I would also like to point out that Superman and Wonder Woman are the fastest here and will act long before Iceman can even dream of it.

Originally posted by endrict
can Ice man hurt Sups?

not to any huge degree imo...

Originally posted by Soljer
Superman may be too fast. Maybe.

Tornado may be too powerful.

But Sue, Namor, and the Torch are flash-frozen. Along with pretty much ALL of team 2, save the few that can't be.

Then it's all of Scott's team versus a few of Cap's.

namor, sure, torch, sure, but sue? are you sure he can affect the inside of her shield?

and superman (at least imo) is easily fast enough...

Originally posted by endrict
Scott Team
Hulk
Batman
Wonder Woman
Storm
wolverine
Aquaman
Jenny Q from authority
Iron man
Iceman

Cap Team
Classic juggernaut
Deathstroke
Superman
Invisible woman
Sabertooth
Namor
Red Tornado
Engineer from authority
Human Torch

team 1 is better stacked now... they could very well take it...

Originally posted by Blair Wind
There is an Iceman vs Superman thread floating around somewhere, and it came to the basic scientific conclusion that well....Iceman would win 😬

Also no one on team two has telepathy, and Team one has Aquaman.

I gotta say Team One. You have your flash frozen guys, your TP nuked guys, and MAYBE Juggs, Superman (I still think Iceman could beat him), and Red Tornado left.

good thing i wasn't there... 😛

Originally posted by Soljer
Speed blitz bobby to take him out?

Now what?

Bobby exists as moisture and is not only able to solo pretty much the entire team, but is entirely invisible while doing so.

that being the biggest obstacle, yes...

Originally posted by Newjak
Secondly superman Could fly him to the Sun before IceMan knew what happened I would love to see how Bobby handled that.

good idea... though as soljer said, iceman would evaporate before he was far enough out of the atmosphere...

Originally posted by jrodslam
Why is Red Tornado being mentioned? Am i missing something with him? Doesnt he now have a human body?

one question about tornado... we know that he has all these wind powers and so on, but i'd like to know, is there a possibility that it's just a dumbed down version of control over oxygen? if so (and i know its a long shot), wouldnt he be able to one-up bobby? just a thought, if a far fetched one...

Originally posted by jrodslam
True. Supes is physically superior. WW isnt far behind. Supes weakness = Magic = WW's items.

imo her items only serve to almost level the playing field... he still has the advantage in strength, durability and speed... plus hv, cold and wind breath and so on...

Originally posted by Blair Wind
I try to think in terms of MORE than just physical strength. If you were Superman and I was Iceman I can assure you I could think of at least five different ways to beat you, and I would win. Physical strength is not the end all in most cases.

if I was Superman could you do it? 😛

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Ill get back to this later...just wanted to bump it.

A note to take on, Superman knows nothing about Iceman. Iceman can exist as water vapor (the very same that is already present in the air), and as we know Superman needs air to breath, and has in the past been shown to drink and eat. That means that he metabolizes them, which simply means they pass his bio-matrix. Iceman can exist inside of him and mess him up in various ways. Freezing his blood (which he has been shown to have) and other different ways of freezing him.

but isnt superman's bio aura partially psionically controlled? how do we know he doesnt allow his bio-aura to let the food pass into his system? superman can survive for incredibly long periods without oxygen too, so why couldnt he stop bobby? i really don't see bobby taking superman, bobby and the rest of his team? of course they will...

scott's team takes it imo, even if supes survives bobby's assault, he's got way too much to fight off...

Originally posted by pr1983
not to any huge degree imo...

namor, sure, torch, sure, but sue? are you sure he can affect the inside of her shield?

and superman (at least imo) is easily fast enough...

team 1 is better stacked now... they could very well take it...

good thing i wasn't there... 😛

that being the biggest obstacle, yes...

good idea... though as soljer said, iceman would evaporate before he was far enough out of the atmosphere...

one question about tornado... we know that he has all these wind powers and so on, but i'd like to know, is there a possibility that it's just a dumbed down version of control over oxygen? if so (and i know its a long shot), wouldnt he be able to one-up bobby? just a thought, if a far fetched one...

imo her items only serve to almost level the playing field... he still has the advantage in strength, durability and speed... plus hv, cold and wind breath and so on...

if I was Superman could you do it? 😛

but isnt superman's bio aura partially psionically controlled? how do we know he doesnt allow his bio-aura to let the food pass into his system? superman can survive for incredibly long periods without oxygen too, so why couldnt he stop bobby? i really don't see bobby taking superman, bobby and the rest of his team? of course they will...

scott's team takes it imo, even if supes survives bobby's assault, he's got way too much to fight off...

Originally posted by Newjak
I agree with most of this with the exception that Scott's teams superior numbers will wi nthis. Why because honestly most of them are non factors anyways. superman can toast most of them with HV before there team acts or use his Ice Breath to freeze most of there team before anything happens.

if we're going by speedblitz then sure, supes could do massive damage against the opposition, but couldn't ww do the same to his?

Originally posted by pr1983
if we're going by speedblitz then sure, supes could do massive damage against the opposition, but couldn't ww do the same to his?

Essentially only 4 people who can survive the first strikes have a chance to effect the outcome. Hulk and Wonder Woman and juggernaut and Superman.

Iceman will surive but is once again a non factor. The only reason I say Hulk has a chance is because he may be able to get strong enough to KO Superman a big what if.

Juggernaut taking into account all his feats theoretically beat everyone save WW but then give a hand to Superman possibly.

Superman and Wonder Woman will most likely be the two biggest factors in this fight.

Originally posted by Newjak
Yes but everyone that gets taken out in the first few minutes are non factors anyways. On both teams.

Essentially only 4 people who can survive the first strikes have a chance to effect the outcome. Hulk and Wonder Woman and juggernaut and Superman.

Iceman will surive but is once again a non factor. The only reason I say Hulk has a chance is because he may be able to get strong enough to KO Superman a big what if.

Juggernaut taking into account all his feats theoretically beat everyone save WW but then give a hand to Superman possibly.

Superman and Wonder Woman will most likely be the two biggest factors in this fight.

i'm actually middle of the road here... while i don't think iceman can take down supes, i still think he's at the very least a very effective diversion...

ww and iceman together would kill superman imo...

Originally posted by pr1983
i'm actually middle of the road here... while i don't think iceman can take down supes, i still think he's at the very least a very effective diversion...

ww and iceman together would kill superman imo...

That and Superman and Wonder Woman probably have had half a fight before Iceman knew what happened or their fight goes into space like it always seems to do where Iceman can't get him. 😛

Edit: And another thing that needs to be addressed is that Iceman is still limited to Human perspective and thought. How is he supposed to lock unto Superman and freeze him when and WW would be moving to fast for him to get a lock on?

If he Flash Freezes the entire feidl wouldn't that also effect Diana as well?

Originally posted by Newjak
Not if Juggernaut takes him out first 😛

That and Superman and Wonder Woman probably have had half a fight before Iceman knew what happened or their fight goes into space like it always seems to do where Iceman can't get him. 😛

takes out who?

could happen i guess...

Originally posted by pr1983
takes out who?

could happen i guess...

Oh and just because I want to say it again. Wouldn't Superman and Wonder Woman be moving to fast for Iceman's Human mind to follow and target.

He would have to Flash Freeze the entire field which means his own team as well and if it could effect Superman then it would probably effect Diana maybe even worse since her power isn't constantly supplied like Superman's. 😛

Originally posted by Newjak
Takes out Iceman I've already given an example of how to do so about a page back 😛

missed that sorry...

Oh and just because I want to say it again. Wouldn't Superman and Wonder Woman be moving to fast for Iceman's Human mind to follow and target.

they can do, assuming iceman's perceptional abilities are similar to the way they've always been...

He would have to Flash Freeze the entire field which means his own team as well and if it could effect Superman then it would probably effect Diana maybe even worse since her power isn't constantly supplied like Superman's. 😛

well i still maintain that superman wouldnt be frozen by iceman, but meh... 😛