Hal Jordan vs. Bearer of Star Brand

Yo.

upon review, I realize that I should also list where & when these happend, aside from clarifying them as being post-CoIE:

really? tell me: how many jaunts thru time have we seen *any* SB-user attempt (theres a bunch pre AND post-CoIE),

for example Guy, in JLI #59

or even how many realitiy manipulations (done post-CoIE) have we seen them do,

as Ch'p did in GLC v1 #3 (or GL #203 if U will)

or how many times have we seen spontaneous generation of a cure for plague it had never seen b4 (done post-CoIE),

as John did during Cosmic Odyssey #2

trapped a being that was defined as a god (done post-CoIE),

GL-Driq in GLC #19 (or GL v2 #219 if U will)

or defended & DEFEATING an invasion that came to the planet that containing forces from atleast 9 different worlds and utilizing weapons capable of eliminating all life (except 1 specific type) ALL at the speed of thought......AND on top of that taking down 3 other beings who are empowered the SAME as U (and yes, that was POST-CoIE too)??

as John did in GL: Mosaic #18. however, that being said I still maintain:

plz, since U want specific comparable actions, then show me *those feats* from a Starbrand -user.

Tazer

Interesting debate...still going with the Starbrand for the win

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
You and I both know that thing about the willpower exceeding the ring is BS. 😬

On panel bs, such as the one with the armbar that can lock any humanoid form no matter how strong.

Yo.

Originally posted by Bentley
On panel bs, such as the one with the armbar that can lock any humanoid form no matter how strong.

and thats the rub really, given everything that a Ring has accomplished before.

Tazer

I'm drunk. Please post your challenge to my arguments in a paragraph or so. I'm not trying to make fun, just need to know where I should focus. You're saying Green Lantern feats that are pre-Crisis should hold up in current continuity? And you're saying that there are no Starbrand feats greater then any Green Lantern feats?

Well, if those are your points, they're simple to counter. First, according to you, current GL rings are subject to limitations that pre-Crisis GL rings were not subject to. I asserted that they had limited charges and could be surpassed by willpower even back then. Both of these characteristics are inarguably current continuity. You said that pre-Crisis GL rings were not subject to these current limitations. Going by your own opinion, it's obvious that current GL rings are different from pre-Crisis rings. Which is why pre-Crisis ring feats do not apply in current threads.

Add to this fact that the thread could simply indicate that pre-Crisis feats are allowed, that would clarify things. Numerous threads are made with "classic" Hal Jordan or PC Hal Jordan, etc. For you to obviate this distinction from this particular thread is disingenuous because you know as well as I do that pre-Crisis is treated differently from post-Crisis. There are simple reasons for this. First, Hal Jordan has no memories of pre-Crisis events. Second, alternate past versions are subject to the same scrutiny that alternate future versions are. Third, pre-Crisis continuity is a terrible mess and 'Crisis on Infinite Earths' was a direct response to this. Erase everything, start anew.

I've been willing to welcome arguments about pre-Crisis Hal Jordan, but at the same time, I think that if such an incarnation of a character is used, then their greatest feats and greatest weaknesses come in a package. The fact is, a pre-Crisis Hal Jordan could not directly affect anything that was yellow. He could manipulate energy and matter surrounding said yellow thing, but could never directly attack or manipulate the yellow thing. It's how he fought and why Hal's encounters with yellow are either utterly embarassing or dangerously exciting. The fact that you are comparing Javelin, Goldface and Sinestro to the Starbrand is reaching. This list of yellow enemies in itself is an over-generalization as you yourself would readily admit that there were specific circumstances that gave Hal Jordan the victory in those fights. The Starbrand's yellow energies and constant aura would make it that much tougher to fight Ken Connell. Not impossible, but hard enough that any advantage in range of pre-Crisis feats he used to show would be significantly offset by the disadvantage of having to work around the yellow weakness.

Finally, you assert that there aren't Starbrand feats to match Green Lantern feats? You challenged me to find specific Ken Connell feats because Stranger feats shouldn't apply. And after doing so, you begin listing Green Lantern feats other then Hal Jordan as a rebuttal. Well that is either an oversight or a double standard. If it's an oversight, the only impressive current Hal Jordan feats you have is a temporal suspension of the planet when he is near death and surviving a 300 megaton explosion to his face while protecting Superman. Those are the only two current feats you've posted. Everything else is non-Hal Jordan. The list of Ken Connell feats far outstrips that short list and you know it.

Now if you want to revert back and start listing any Green Lantern feat as fair game, then I'll call out the double standard and start putting together a list of all Starbrand user feats and stack them against current Green Lanterns. Do you want me to do this? Because then Quasar, Stranger, Layla, Skeletron and Jacob Burnley feats are fair game. Are we arguing Green Lantern ring vs. Starbrand or current Hal Jordan vs. current Ken Connell? Swinging back and forth between the two only when it suits you is logically fallacious and downright unfair.

Either way, pre-Crisis or post-Crisis, all Green Lanterns or just Hal Jordan, you arguably still don't have the feats to top current Ken Connell. Eliminating the concept of death from all life on the Earth? Restoring a clinically dead organism to life? Linking past, current and future incarnations into a perpetual temporal Moebius loop? Your best feats are a programmed temporal suspension response to imminent death in Action Comics #642 (I still want to know what Hal was actually able to accomplish during this stoppage of time other then a conversation with Deadman), a temporal jump through time by Guy Gardner in JLI #59 (which is fine, but I still think resolving a time paradox that threatens to destroy a universe is greater time manipulation than that), trapping a being who was a god in Green Lantern #219 (when actually Driq was assisting his fellow GL, Flodo Span, who was an abstract being), defeating an alien invasion in GL: Mosaic #18 (would instant planetary shutdown of all defense systems and weapons, both electronic, nuclear and mechanical match that?) and spontaneous plague curing in Cosmic Odyssey #2 (this is supposed to approach elimination of the concept of death for an entire planet?).

Is that list about right? If it's not, then list the top five pre-Crisis feats you have and the top five post-Crisis feats you have and I'll respond thereafter. Hal Jordan, Kyle Rayner, Guy Gardner, whatever your cup of tea is this time around since you appear comfortable dictating the limits and circumstances in how I respond. Pre-Crisis GLs don't have feats to match Starbrand users. Pre-Crisis Hal Jordan is at a severe disadvantage due to yellow weakness. Post-Crisis GLns have significantly less powerful feats then Starbrand users. Post-Crisis Hal Jordan has even fewer.

On a related note, it's important to remember that the Starbrand is the most powerful source of power in its universe. It is infinite and not subject to any limitations of 24 hour recharging, will surpassing feat limits, weaknesses to color spectrums or subject to inexperience of its user. The Starbrand operates on a wish-fulfillment level that rivals a fully charged Cosmic Cube. Exactly the reason why the Living Tribunal had to quarantine the damn thing to prevent a multiversal contamination and catastrophe. In no way does a GL ring upset the multiversal balance and neither does a GL ring demonstrate infinite levels of power or wish-fulfillment potential on that scale. A GL ring is a weapon rife with limits and weaknesses that is dependent on a user's experience. The Starbrand is power unto itself with none of those trappings.

Ken Connell 8/10.

Yo.

ok, I'll respond to yur post by paragraph and number them rather than quote all of it (done for brevity)

OPENING STATEMENT
wat I said on page 1 was that I hadnt seen any feat mentioned that put it out of the range of the QB, and by extension the GL-Rings, and I stand by that. wat Im saying is that the actions done by Hal & most of the other GLs WERE NOT retconned by the events of the CoIE, given that right afterward his book was the only 1 to referrence the event & some of the various fallout stemming from said. and even when GL vol 3 started there was NO RETCON MADE to Hal or the GLC which renders their past histories changed; this is a situation that nobody else but Hal, and possibly Swamp Thing, exists under @ DC.

and Im saying that while U have shown some decent feats, and 1 really good feat, that alone does NOT show itself to put a bearer of the SB decisively over a GL.

PARAGRAPH 1
no, wat I said was that U have yet to show any feat done in the past by a GL, that could not be done NOW, due to them now actually having a finite charge carried within. *U* asserted that the past Rings having an infinite charge w/in 24hrs worked against them somehow, and I asked how; U asserted that the current GL-Rings would be proven inferior given that they DID have a finite charge.......again I asked how.

that they have different characteristics is NOT an indicator that Pre-CoIE GL-Ring feats should not apply in current threads.

PARAGRAPH 2
I know that some threads make a distinction between pre- & post-CoIE feats and showings, however plz refer to my comments above on that issue; that also applies to most of his memories in regards to pre-C events.

PARAGRAPH 3
I have no problem taking his weakensses into account with his strengths (I mean fair IS fair), but weaknesses exploitation (of any degree) doesnt automatically turn into auto-wins for those fighting against them, and Hal has shown that he can be quite adept at dealing with those situations.

as for any over-reaching on my part about Hal fighting something yellow, we had the man get into a direct battle of Ring-blasts against Sinestro in #91...........wanna guess wat happend?? he held his own, even beating him in a direct will-battle, and only left the scene to help out a fallen GL. so take that as U will, as I know for *my money* this doesnt mean as much as U'd like to make it out to be; this isnt a mountain he'd have to surmount, but an obstacle.

PARAGRAPH 4
I never said there werent enuff SB-feats to match GL-feats. I asked U to use Ken Connell feats since THATS who is being used by the OP for this topic, even tho U made yur entrance into this thread using Strangers feats. U were the person who wanted to discount anything pre-CoIE under the mistaken condition that the Rings then were different, and was only looking for "current" feats......

so if the list is short, that aint my fault or prob.

PARAGRAPH 5
actually, I was *always* arguing Hal Jordan vs Ken Connell, altho I see yur still trying to limit which feat, and Ring, can & cant be used........and U wanna talk about ME being unfair?!??

PARAGRAPH 6
if U want to limit it to just Hal Jordan, then yur right as Hal *himself* hasnt done any of those particular feats, non-combat as they are.

but I would like to bring up the fine point that the SC didnt eliminate the concept of death, but simply found a way to keep things from dying: if he had eliminated THE CONCEPT then Jane & Roger wouldnt have had any knowledge when he came to discuss the matter.

similarly, the SC only partially disabled the nations of the world, and not EVERYTHING as U say since we saw good ol'shotguns still worked.

and also, as it pertains to fixing (or even *causing*) a time paradox, if U paid attention to wat had happend then it looks the SC was wrong in thinking that he/they could solve it by doing wateverda****itwas he/they was gonna do......cuz if U'll remember Jacob gave the SB to LT. Hanrahan; now if sealing it off was supposed fix everything, and he/they apparently didnt have the SB when they attempted to do so, and the universe hadnt imploded by the time Quasar showed up.........then I guess that feat matter to little more than a minor headache (especially given that they dont address how it is that Ken could be born while the old man was still crawling his way out from that rock.)

PARAGRAPH 7
how am I dictating?? I was just trying follow the stipulations of the thread; but just out of curiosity can U tell me just how many combat feats does Ken Connell have?? interesting that the 5 big feats that U want to bandy about as being far-and-away better than a GLs.....and have *nothing to do* with combat.

but seriously, Id like to see some.

PARAGRAPH 8
I dont see anything in wat the SB has done that "rivals a fully charged Cosmic Cube" given that it took the SC a number of WEEKS to understand how life worked, and a CC would simply do it when wished, and the SB itself has demonstrated that it in-fact ISNT infinite since we SAW it run out on Quasar......which shouldnt happen if it really were.

and for the record: LT quaranteed the damn thing becuz while powerful he mostly didnt like the ease with which it could be transferred.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ken Connell 8/10.

at getting KTFO'd by Hal, sure.

😄

Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
but I would like to bring up the fine point that the SC didnt eliminate the concept of death, but simply found a way to keep things from dying: if he had eliminated THE CONCEPT then Jane & Roger wouldnt have had any knowledge when he came to discuss the matter.

similarly, the SC only partially disabled the nations of the world, and not EVERYTHING as U say since we saw good ol'shotguns still worked.

Originally posted by Tazer
and also, as it pertains to fixing (or even *causing*) a time paradox, if U paid attention to wat had happend then it looks the SC was wrong in thinking that he/they could solve it by doing wateverda****itwas he/they was gonna do......cuz if U'll remember Jacob gave the SB to LT. Hanrahan; now if sealing it off was supposed fix everything, and he/they apparently didnt have the SB when they attempted to do so, and the universe hadnt imploded by the time Quasar showed up.........then I guess that feat matter to little more than a minor headache (especially given that they dont address how it is that Ken could be born while the old man was still crawling his way out from that rock.)

I dont see anything in wat the SB has done that "rivals a fully charged Cosmic Cube" given that it took the SC a number of WEEKS to understand how life worked, and a CC would simply do it when wished, and the SB itself has demonstrated that it in-fact ISNT infinite since we SAW it run out on Quasar......which shouldnt happen if it really were.

Originally posted by Tazer
how am I dictating?? I was just trying follow the stipulations of the thread; but just out of curiosity can U tell me just how many combat feats does Ken Connell have?? interesting that the 5 big feats that U want to bandy about as being far-and-away better than a GLs.....and have *nothing to do* with combat.

but seriously, Id like to see some.

"Combat feats" in these few appearances do not limit the scope and versatility of his Starbrand. And for hypothetical vs threads, the scope and versatility of a character's power is similarly important in the inquiry. This should be obvious since you yourself have been posting feats like curing a plague, preventing radiation from leaking from a planet, bringing other people back to life, setting up fields of electromagnetic interference, etc. Nothing to do with combat. But they sure as heck matter. You may not be doing it intentionally, but you are switching back and forth between inquiries and narrowing the so-called "playing field of feat legitimacy" when it suits you and your arguments.

Nevertheless, we're not that far apart. We disagree slightly on how yellow weaknesses handicap GLs. We agree that current GL rings operate differently then pre-Crisis GL rings. What we disagree on significantly is the subject of pre/post-Crisis Green Lantern continuity. But you know what? It doesn't matter. Why? Because even by taking your word for it, this is the bottom-line: 1) Pre-Crisis GLs don't have feats to match Starbrand users; 2) pre-Crisis Hal Jordan doesn't have feats to match Ken Connell's; 3) post-Crisis GLns have significantly less powerful feats then Starbrand users; and 4) post-Crisis Hal Jordan has even fewer against Ken Connell. You haven't proven any superiority in any of these four fields. Like I said, go ahead and post your top GL feats, pre/post-Crisis. And go ahead and post your top Hal Jordan feats, pre/post-Crisis. I'll respond in kind and let everybody else decide who's more persuasive.

Just know that you can expect me to point out context on your feats with the same rigor you have been subjecting to my feats. You've corrected me several times and that is always appreciated.

Looking at both sides of the argument, I'm leaning towards the Star Brand.

SB FTW

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Whoops. You're absolutely right. It came out in 1989. Hal stopped suspended time on the planet. And while I've never seen anything remotely close to it again, it did happen. Impressive post-Crisis ability by the ring, I thought that was only pre-Crisis. In context, it's a preprogrammed response to an imminent death of a Green Lantern. I don't know how much a Green Lantern can do in that state. Hal's (spirit?) was floating around having a conversation with Deadman while his body lay on the ground. Not sure how that would apply to a fight if he's already at death's door. Anybody got the rest of the comic, what exactly did Hal Jordan do in such a state besides talk with Deadman?

I've got the entire issue. While he was in that state, his ring scanned the Earth for suitable replacements (though, that was most assuredly part of the pre-programmed response).

Then, he talked to Deadman. He talked to Clark Kent (who was unaffected by the time-stoppage, since he can move and think at hyper-speeds). He talked to Abin Sur (who was programmed into the ring). And then...he decided not to let himself die, rejuvenated himself, and was no longer in said 'spirit' state.

So, yeah, while he was in that state, all he really did was talk - Deadman, Superman, and Abin Sur.

Hope that helps. 🙂.

great scans guy222 😛