ROTS Anakin V.S. KOTOR Revan

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I couldn't tell you. I assume you meant if he "can?" Perhaps he feels its a tool of the darkside and by using it you could begin down the dark path. I mean shit, to Yoda, if you wipe your ass from back to front you start down the dark path. I just think its logical to assume that if he can manipulate it (someone else's no less) with such ease, he should know the process of it and also know how to produce it. But he was pushing it back on to Sidious right before the power surge knocked them both back.

I find that line of thinking rather illogical. Yoda has directly implied to Count Dooku that he had dabbled in the dark side arts at one point in his life in Dark Rendezvous; but to assume that he can generate Force lightning based off of his duels with Dooku and Sidious is rather inept to assert. I wouldn't say that it isn't possible, since any two-bit Jedi can pretty much do it (when they get pissed or touch the dark side), I think that Yoda's own willpower prevents that from happening, because he was certainly in a position to use it against Sidious - the guy he absolutely, above all else, wanted to destroy - so my thought is: if he had the power handy at the time, he would have used it.

You also might say: "well, Yoda's still a Jedi", but the fight with Sidious proved that Yoda was going to go to extraordinary lengths - premeditated murder - to eradicate the Sith. If he could have generated Force lightning (even easily) at the time, he would have done so.

You're working under the assumption that force lightning would have been beneficial to Yoda. How so? He has a bunch of offensive techniques in his arsenal, and ones that he's actually learnt how to master. Even if Yoda could use lightning, he's never properly trained in it, thus he wouldn't have ever mastered the technique, thus your whole argument that's riding on the assertion that he would have used it against Sidious falls apart, given that it's asinine to believe the technique would have been beneficial under the circumstances, given he has other offensive techniques in his arsenal that he's actually mastered. So you're wrong. Unlucky.

You're working under the assumption that force lightning would have been beneficial to Yoda. How so?

Let's put it in perspective: he was squaring off against an opponent who is his virtual equal (who had an advantage in the Force department due to his offensive powers), and primarily relied on his lightsaber.

Sidious took the lightsaber away from him. Gee whiz, you're right. A disarmed Jedi master versus a Sith Lord of equal power (with offensive Force advantages and better tactics, and who may or may not have been disarmed).

Yeah, Force lightning wouldn't have helped at that point. Silly me.

He has a bunch of offensive techniques in his arsenal, and ones that he's actually learnt how to master.

Right. And that helped him against Sidious how?

Oh, right.

Even if Yoda could use lightning, he's never properly trained in it, thus he wouldn't have ever mastered the technique, thus your whole argument that's riding on the assertion that he would have used it against Sidious falls apart, given that it's asinine to believe the technique would have been beneficial under the circumstances, given he has other offensive techniques in his arsenal that he's actually mastered.

Who the hell taught you to debate, Noobaris? Whoever the hell did should get their ass kicked for incurring such stupid methods and letting them be exposed in the presence of a moron (you).

Secondly, where did those offensive powers come in handy against Sidious? Oh, wait. They didn't. Please. Yoda was on his last damn leg without that lightsaber, he had no hope of laying a killstrike on Sidious outside of the possibility of knocking him off the pod with his own lightning (which didn't exactly work) and the mere chance that he could fall to his death.

He was desperate, and so if he could generate Force lightning, he would have done so.

So you're wrong. Unlucky.

Because you say so? Wrong, Noobaris.

Let's put it in perspective: he was squaring off against an opponent who is his virtual equal (who had an advantage in the Force department due to his offensive powers), and primarily relied on his lightsaber.

Sidious took the lightsaber away from him. Gee whiz, you're right. A disarmed Jedi master versus a Sith Lord of equal power (with offensive Force advantages and better tactics, and who may or may not have been disarmed).

Yeah, Force lightning wouldn't have helped at that point. Silly me.

You know, you really should read through the entire post of who you're debating against before addressing it point by point, because most of the answers are in there, just a little lower down. Now again, please explain how lightning would be any more beneficial than any other of the number of techniques that Yoda possesses. Logic points to the opposite being true, given he hasn't even mastered lightning, and wouldn't be able to utilise it to as great a degree he could to an offensive technique that he has mastered.

Right. And that helped him against Sidious how?

Oh, right.

Well this just opens up another question: if none of the offensive techniques that were in Yoda's arsenal were beneficial in that circumstance, why the hell would lightning be?

Who the hell taught you to debate, Noobaris? Whoever the hell did should get their ass kicked for incurring such stupid methods and letting them be exposed in the presence of a moron (you).

Wait, hold up, so you've actually been taught to debate? And you're still this sh1t? Wow... Wait, maybe I'm expecting too much from you. We can't all have natural talent now can we Gideon?

Secondly, where did those offensive powers come in handy against Sidious? Oh, wait. They didn't. Please. Yoda was on his last damn leg without that lightsaber, he had no hope of laying a killstrike on Sidious outside of the possibility of knocking him off the pod with his own lightning (which didn't exactly work) and the mere chance that he could fall to his death.

He was desperate, and so if he could generate Force lightning, he would have done so.

Again, already been dealt with, you're basically killing your own point with each rebuttal. If none of the other offensive techniques in Yoda's arsenal were beneficial in that situation, then why the hell would lightning be?

Because you say so? Wrong, Noobaris.

You're still wrong, and you still suck. So again, unlucky.

Gideon, Sidious's lightning is what disarmed Yoda, so he didn't have time to do anything but block. But while he was, he knew enough about it to force it back on to Sidious. You're trying to make it sound like he was disarmed halfway through the battle. And just because he didn't do something in no way means he can't. That's like saying Anakin didn't choke OB1 so he can't do it.

Plannig on destroying the Sith could be construed as a preemptive strike of self-defense, not premeditated murder. Yoda's death would be for personal pleasure and personal gain, whereas Sidious' death would have been self preservation for the Jedi Order. Are soldiers who go over seas and kill murderers? If so, I guess I'm going to hell.

Answer me how knowing enough to manipulate one way (absorbing it)means you couldn't know how to manipulate it the other way (producing it)? Seriously though. Maybe i;m just not seeing your POV besides "if he knew how he would have."

You know, you really should read through the entire post of who you're debating against before addressing it point by point, because most of the answers are in there, just a little lower down. Now again, please explain how lightning would be any more beneficial than any other of the number of techniques that Yoda possesses. Logic points to the opposite being true, given he hasn't even mastered lightning, and wouldn't be able to utilise it to as great a degree he could to an offensive technique that he has mastered.

Thanks for the tips on debating, Noobaris, but the only one here who needs to improve is you. Logic points to the fact that Yoda was unarmed and on his last leg against an opponent of equal strength who was in a more advantageous position. Force lightning would have been a weapon that he could have used against Sidious.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't Jedi used bursts of Force lightning before to an effective degree?

Well this just opens up another question: if none of the offensive techniques that were in Yoda's arsenal were beneficial in that circumstance, why the hell would lightning be?

Because Sith offensive techniques > Jedi offensive techniques. Again, Yoda was on his last leg against an opponent who is equal in strength and who held all of the advantages. Considering how his sheer goal in this whole affair was to kill Sidious, he would have done so had he been capable - at that point - to use lightning.

Wait, hold up, so you've actually been taught to debate? And you're still this sh1t? Wow... Wait, maybe I'm expecting too much from you. We can't all have natural talent now can we Gideon?

Who the hell said that? Are you stupid (rhetorical question, I know)? I asked who the hell taught you to debate. I didn't imply that everyone else has been taught how to debate, including myself. Assuming makes an ass out of - well... just you, in this case.

Again, already been dealt with, you're basically killing your own point with each rebuttal. If none of the other offensive techniques in Yoda's arsenal were beneficial in that situation, then why the hell would lightning be?

Read the above.

And, please, I might as well kill my own point. You sure as hell can't do it.

You're still wrong, and you still suck. So again, unlucky.

How witty. Took you five minutes to come up with that?

Gideon, Sidious's lightning is what disarmed Yoda, so he didn't have time to do anything but block. But while he was, he knew enough about it to force it back on to Sidious. You're trying to make it sound like he was disarmed halfway through the battle.

To get quite technical, he first caught Sidious's lightning with one hand, his other hand was free - and if he could produce lightning and if he could do so easily - he would have done so.

And just because he didn't do something in no way means he can't. That's like saying Anakin didn't choke OB1 so he can't do it.

Entirely different situation; Anakin was in a blind rage - beyond all rational and tactical thought - and was just beating on Obi-Wan with a lightsaber.

Plannig on destroying the Sith could be construed as a preemptive strike of self-defense, not premeditated murder. Yoda's death would be for personal pleasure and personal gain, whereas Sidious' death would have been self preservation for the Jedi Order. Are soldiers who go over seas and kill murderers? If so, I guess I'm going to hell.

Actually, to get technical, Yoda initiated the offensive. Had Sidious killed him, it would have been - legally, at least - an act of self defense. Spin it all you like, but what Yoda did (even with good intentions) wasn't an act of self defense.

Answer me how knowing enough to manipulate one way (absorbing it)means you couldn't know how to manipulate it the other way (producing it)? Seriously though. Maybe i;m just not seeing your POV besides "if he knew how he would have."

No.

I don't think he can just summon lightning up on the spot - and, as I said before, even if he can, it isn't anywhere near as easy as someone like Sidious or Dooku can, because he isn't a trained Sith Lord.

Thanks for the tips on debating, Noobaris, but the only one here who needs to improve is you. Logic points to the fact that Yoda was unarmed and on his last leg against an opponent of equal strength who was in a more advantageous position. Force lightning would have been a weapon that he could have used against Sidious.

Again, read back over my last few posts, Yoda has other offensive techniques that he could have used, and ones that he could use to a much greater degree, given he's properly trained with them and mastered them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't Jedi used bursts of Force lightning before to an effective degree?

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that Yoda would be able to use offensive techniques he actually knows well to a much higher degree. So why the hell would he choose to use force lightning, when he has all of said techniques in his arsenal, yet still chose not to use them?

Because Sith offensive techniques > Jedi offensive techniques.

LMAO! I'd love for you to prove that ridiculous assertion. Not to mentioned the fact that again, yoda hasn't mastered lightning, whereas he's mastered a number of offensive jedi techniques, and thus would wield them to greater effect.

Again, Yoda was on his last leg against an opponent who is equal in strength and who held all of the advantages. Considering how his sheer goal in this whole affair was to kill Sidious, he would have done so had he been capable - at that point - to use lightning.

Again, you're wrong, and you're working under the absence of proof = proof of absence fallacy.

Who the hell said that? Are you stupid (rhetorical question, I know)? I asked who the hell taught you to debate. I didn't imply that everyone else has been taught how to debate, including myself. Assuming makes an ass out of - well... just you, in this case.

"Who the hell taught you to debate, Noobaris?"

That's what you stated, Gideon. Now given that you're of the opinion that I'm not too good, if you really hadn't ever been taught how to debate, you would have just made the logical assumption that I never had been taught either, however given you still asked the question, you clearly felt like it was a regular thing, and that in fact it was out of the ordinary to actually have never been taught, indicating that you yourself have been taught. QED, mother****er.

Read the above.

And, please, I might as well kill my own point. You sure as hell can't do it.

Well it's a good job that you're doing it for me then. 😂
Thank you Gideon, you make my job oh so easy.

How witty. Took you five minutes to come up with that?

10 minutes actually. And what, b1tch!?

It was never my intention to imply that he could do it as easily as Sidious or a sith lord, and i do not believe I stated as much, however, if i did, my apologies.

The way i saw it, it hit his saber and free together and jarred Yoda's saber loose, then Yoda used two hands to block.

It's not a different situation. He choked Padme, he could have turned to and choked OB1. He wasnt beating on him with a saber yet. And him being in a blind rage is what caused him to start choking people in the first place.

AS i said, could be construed (from Yoda's point of view [i forgot to type that]) as a preemptive strike for self defense. It's called the greater good. BUT i see what you're saying from a legal standpoint, however if Yoda felt it to be an evil deed, he wouldn't have done it. He's the epitome of what a Jedi should be.

And as i said before, CM said that he didn't so he can't, and i believe that to be wrong or at the very least, poor reasoning. Weren't you one of the ones who was saying that to be able to defend against something you have to know how to do it? I could be wrong though...

Again, read back over my last few posts, Yoda has other offensive techniques that he could have used, and ones that he could use to a much greater degree, given he's properly trained with them and mastered them.

Again: stop being stupid. I understand that that is basically asking you to fight against your primal nature, but seriously, reading your rebuttles exposes me to the sheer stupidity and ridiculous constitution of your opinion to the degree that it might - just might - make me lose IQ points. Fortunately, unlike you, I have plenty to spare.

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that Yoda would be able to use offensive techniques he actually knows well to a much higher degree. So why the hell would he choose to use force lightning, when he has all of said techniques in his arsenal, yet still chose not to use them?

Please name to me one of Yoda's multitude of offensive techniques that is as effective as a Sith offensive, and one that he could have used. He went into that fight to kill [take his life], and Sidious has a natural offensive advantage. He was in a position to use offensive techniques the whole damn time. If he could summon lightning as you say (especially when two-bit Jedi can do it), he would have been in the position to utilize such a feat.

LMAO! I'd love for you to prove that ridiculous assertion.

According to Lucas, the dark side is stronger. A direct quote from one of his commentaries, and if you'd like to argue it, take it up with Advent.

Not to mentioned the fact that again, yoda hasn't mastered lightning, whereas he's mastered a number of offensive jedi techniques, and thus would wield them to greater effect.

This has been addressed.

Again, you're wrong, and you're working under the absence of proof = proof of absence fallacy.

As opposed to you, running on the fallacy of "yes, of course he could generate it. Sure, he's never been seen doing it - even when he was in the position of doing so."

I suppose Sidious really is the most powerful Sith by RotS, even though - as you say - he hasn't exhibited any abilities to indicate as such.

"Who the hell taught you to debate, Noobaris?"

That's what you stated, Gideon. Now given that you're of the opinion that I'm not too good, if you really hadn't ever been taught how to debate, you would have just made the logical assumption that I never had been taught either, however given you still asked the question, you clearly felt like it was a regular thing, and that in fact it was out of the ordinary to actually have never been taught, indicating that you yourself have been taught. QED, mother****er.

Lmao. There you go again, attempting to read into someone's intent or thoughts behind a statement. You do this time and time again, with various people, and you fail each time. You can't read into someone's thoughts, Noobaris. Especially when this is the Internet, and such things are even harder to detect.

Nice try. ^_^

Well it's a good job that you're doing it for me then. 😂
Thank you Gideon, you make my job oh so easy.

No problem. 😂

10 minutes actually. And what, b1tch!?

Oh, so it took you 10 minutes to come up with a not-so-witty retort? Nice.

It was never my intention to imply that he could do it as easily as Sidious or a sith lord, and i do not believe I stated as much, however, if i did, my apologies.

There you have it, then. You seemed to imply (and implications can be misread) that Yoda could turn into some Force-lightning-hurling whirlwind of destruction. That is not the case.

The way i saw it, it hit his saber and free together and jarred Yoda's saber loose, then Yoda used two hands to block.

No. The lightning hit the saber, knocked it out of his hand, and knocked him off balance. As he regained his balance, he caught the lightning with one hand, and then brought up his free hand to catch it as well.

It's not a different situation. He choked Padme, he could have turned to and choked OB1. He wasnt beating on him with a saber yet. And him being in a blind rage is what caused him to start choking people in the first place.

You have to assess the situation:

- Padme isn't a Force-trained Jedi Knight or Sith Lord. Her defenses against a Force choke would be much weaker than someone like Obi-Wan's.

- Obi-Wan and Anakin seemed to be equals in Force strength, as neither of their Force pushes could overcome the other.

- As for Anakin's blind rage = choking people, I think it's obvious that when Anakin gets angry, his rational and tactical sense decreases. He was angrier at Obi-Wan than Padme, and the thought of using his Force grip to bear against Obi-Wan likely never crossed his mind.

AS i said, could be construed (from Yoda's point of view [i forgot to type that]) as a preemptive strike for self defense. It's called the greater good. BUT i see what you're saying from a legal standpoint, however if Yoda felt it to be an evil deed, he wouldn't have done it. He's the epitome of what a Jedi should be.

Well, by this time, most of the Jedi had been killed anyways. Yoda's move was one of good intent. By killing Sidious, he would be saving the galaxy, the Republic, and what was left of the Jedi at the time. But that still doesn't change the fact that what he did was premeditate murder.

And as i said before, CM said that he didn't so he can't, and i believe that to be wrong or at the very least, poor reasoning. Weren't you one of the ones who was saying that to be able to defend against something you have to know how to do it? I could be wrong though...

I didn't.

Again: stop being stupid. I understand that that is basically asking you to fight against your primal nature, but seriously, reading your rebuttles exposes me to the sheer stupidity and ridiculous constitution of your opinion to the degree that it might - just might - make me lose IQ points. Fortunately, unlike you, I have plenty to spare.

Ad Hominimi.

Please name to me one of Yoda's multitude of offensive techniques that is as effective as a Sith offensive, and one that he could have used. He went into that fight to kill [take his life], and Sidious has a natural offensive advantage. He was in a position to use offensive techniques the whole damn time. If he could summon lightning as you say (especially when two-bit Jedi can do it), he would have been in the position to utilize such a feat.

Cutting Sidious from the force would have been as effective. TK can be as effective as lightning. Morichro? Malacia?

According to Lucas, the dark side is stronger. A direct quote from one of his commentaries, and if you'd like to argue it, take it up with Advent.

Going over to the darkside makes you more powerful, by "unleashing the Jedi chains" (refer to the sith code), however the techniques themselves? Requires more evidence.

This has been addressed.

With a logical fallacy that I oh so accurately named.

As opposed to you, running on the fallacy of "yes, of course he could generate it. Sure, he's never been seen doing it - even when he was in the position of doing so."

Look, I never once argued that he can do it (he probably can't), I was just arguing against your reasoning.

I suppose Sidious really is the most powerful Sith by RotS, even though - as you say - he hasn't exhibited any abilities to indicate as such.

Look dude, stop bringing up irrelevant crap in the attempt to draw out the debate. I've already explained how it's absurd to believe RotS Sidious is the most powerful sith ever, and it's based on reasoning not even remotely close to said fallacy.

Lmao. There you go again, attempting to read into someone's intent or thoughts behind a statement. You do this time and time again, with various people, and you fail each time. You can't read into someone's thoughts, Noobaris. Especially when this is the Internet, and such things are even harder to detect.

Nice try. ^_^

I can read you like a book Gideon. My word's absolute in this case.

No problem. 😂

Who you laughing at? 😂

Oh, so it took you 10 minutes to come up with a not-so-witty retort? Nice.

That's right, pretty impressive huh?

Putting the debate aside, how about we stop this violent feud before it gets out of hand and people get shot, because I have no use for any online enemies (Except DarthSexy, I hate that mother****er!!), and would much rather we just drop the insults and continue debating.

I was about to say that, actually.

The truth is, I have my moments of male PMS when I act like a complete prick to people. I'm a very happy-go-lucky person in most cases, especially off this computer. So I vent at you, and I'm sorry for it. 🙁

Awww...are you two gonna have make up sex?

Escape is right. If Yoda COULD muster up force lightning, he would have. You cannot say that "Oh he didn't want to fall to the dark side or use dark side techniques", but Yoda went all out on Sidious and came into the senate chamber with the intent to kill Sidious, nothing else.

why are we talking about yoda and sidous again?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Escape is right. If Yoda COULD muster up force lightning, he would have. You cannot say that "Oh he didn't want to fall to the dark side or use dark side techniques", but Yoda went all out on Sidious and came into the senate chamber with the intent to kill Sidious, nothing else.

Well, I'm not sure I get your points 100%, but Yoda COULD actually do it. But he wouldn't, because generating sith lightning requires...

A) Hate, emotions.
B) It's a dark side power. Basically, by using it, Yoda would use the dark side, which wouldn't make Yoda any better than Sidious.

Coming with the intention to kill doesn't equal using the dark side, jedi can use a lightsaber to cut off a persons head, but they're not allowed to fry him with lightning.

Yoda COULD do lightning, but he never would.

Originally posted by kamikz
Well, I'm not sure I get your points 100%, but Yoda COULD actually do it. But he wouldn't, because generating sith lightning requires...

A) Hate, emotions.
B) It's a dark side power. Basically, by using it, Yoda would use the dark side, which wouldn't make Yoda any better than Sidious.

Coming with the intention to kill doesn't equal using the dark side, jedi can use a lightsaber to cut off a persons head, but they're not allowed to fry him with lightning.

Yoda COULD do lightning, but he never would.

I think you're missing the point actually. Your logic is defeated when again, you realize that Yoda was fighting for his life and had every intent to kill Sidious. It stands that he couldn't muster force lightning because if he could, he would give into his emotions and dark side power just to destroy the sith.

What does yoda useing force lighting hav to do with this!!
its about revan and anakin

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I think you're missing the point actually. Your logic is defeated when again, you realize that Yoda was fighting for his life and had every intent to kill Sidious. It stands that he couldn't muster force lightning because if he could, he would give into his emotions and dark side power just to destroy the sith.

You think he would? I don't, that would make him as bad as the sith himself. Yoda would never use the dark side, he even thinks himself that "faith in the dark side, misplaced may be", he would never trust himself to it, nor it's techniques.