3 New Pictures

Originally posted by katelovespirate
savvy, in response to what you said, here's my thoughts.

1. i still say the kiss was mainly about Liz's lust/draw to adventure.... BUT

I think something we underestimate a lot of time is the value Elizabeth sees in her relationship to Will. I know we all thought they got together rather easily and it worked out too well to be a really good, cinematic relationship, but if you think about it in terms of true people, finally getting together with Will was probably the fulfillment of a crush that may have lasted like 8 years for Elizabeth--- so for eight years, Elizabeth is writing "mrs. elizabeth turner" on her notebooks and looking forward to their brief meetings. she is devastated after every meeting, wondering why Will is so reserved and cold toward her, and wishing he would fall in love with her and let her know that. of course, going along with that, she is yearning for adventure and fun in her life. but she's been raised with good morals and a clear picture of how a man is supposed to treat a lady. (ultimately, Will matches up with that. he's the romantic knight in shining armor who may be goofy but will go to the ends of the earth for her, and she knows it). but Will won't ever be aggressive or initiate with her, and she finally gives up on him and accepts the commodore-- because she thinks Will will never admit his love for her. so when Will finally comes out and says he loves her at the end of film 1, her whole world is suddenly put back together. all her dreams have come true. sure, no relationship is perfect, but he's everything she's ever wanted, and vice versa.

so for her to actually go to the length to flirt with and be attracted to Jack... that's something huge. it's not like she's cheating (or thinking about cheating) on some nice guy she doesnt like that much. She's tempting herself against everything she's ever wanted in Will.

I think we under-estimate how much Will means to Elizabeth sometimes... and therefore, devalue what her interaction with Jack shows.

Interesting interpretation! Let me see if I understood you correctly. So you're saying that because Will means so much to her, that for her to flirt with Jack that her draw to him has be something phenomenal. Is that what you're saying?

"he's the romantic knight in shining armor who may be goofy but will go to the ends of the earth for her, and she knows it). but Will won't ever be aggressive or initiate with her, and she finally gives up on him and accepts the commodore-- because she thinks Will will never admit his love for her. so when Will finally comes out and says he loves her at the end of film 1, her whole world is suddenly put back together. all her dreams have come true. sure, no relationship is perfect, but he's everything she's ever wanted, and vice versa."---------Kate

Kate, love, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Liz never gives up on Will. Her acceptance of Norrington is exactly the same thing she does with Jack. She knows when men want her and she's not afraid to use it against them. The ship is not going to go back for Will and Liz is desperate. So she offers the only thing she can: herself. Norrington wants her and so they have a sort of bargain that she'll marry him if he'll go back for Will. I don't see that as giving up on him.

But everything else....I firmly agree with you. Liz seems pretty satisfied with Will if she agrees to marry him. He's nor forcing her to. So it must take something extremely strong and intense to make her briefly forget about him, not even mention him when someone else makes advances towards her. It's too unnatural for her to be in love with Will and yet not even mention him when it's clear something's bothering her.

Actually, it sort of sets up a nice character trait in Elizabeth. Her accepting Norrington's proposal to save Will's life is her way of limiting her freedomr or happiness to ensure that Will lives. I'd say that the trait carries through the course of the films and motivates her other decisions.

Think about it this way. The path to rescuing Will in COTBP was through Norrington. In that same way, the path to rescuing Will in DMC is through Jack. Which, might explain perhaps why it was that the compass pointed at Jack in the first place, if you're of the mind that the compass does not work the way Jack says it works.

Interesting theories. 😄 I love the picture of Will and Elizabeth, and as I told Willo, I don't care if they are breaking up, declaring undying love for each other or commenting on the weather....it's just a lovely picture all around.

I know what Kate was trying to say, I think.

I think Elizabeth sort of gave up on Will in the cave at the end of CotBP. It seems like she was waiting for a declaration of love, and instead he tells her that her fiance will be worried about her.

So I get that. She may also have been peeved at him earlier in the movie because he didn't call her Elizabeth. She's obviously been trying to get him to call her Elizabeth for some time, so they've seen each other numerous times since they came to Port Royal.

The only real question I have about Elizabeth's feelings for Jack is...do you think her feelings are real, or do you think she may have...confused herself (for lack of a better word) on what she feels for him because of the compass and the flirting?

I have no doubt about Jack's attraction to her, although I hesitate to call it love...but Elizabeth's feelings still seem very up in the air to me, whereas with Will they've always been quite clear.

Comments?

My guess as to Liz's feelings for Jack are that they are real, but I don't know if they are stronger than her feelings for Will. The compass isn't that great since the writers say what you want most can change, so it can constantly point to different things, or multiple things at the same time. But what about the power of suggestion? The first time Liz BELIEVES it points to Jack is after Norrington leaves her. It points in a certain direction and Jack happens to be in that path.

So she sees it pointing in his direction and is obviously disturbed. But why? She's a strong-willed girl. She's not going to just accept something. Plus, she loves Will. There are a million other reasons why it would look like it was pointing to Jack. He's just in the way of the chest. She wants the freedom he has. She wants him to help her get to the chest, etc. There is no reason to think she wants him UNLESS SHE WANTED HIM TO BEGIN WITH.

Originally posted by Surreal_44
Interesting theories. 😄 I love the picture of Will and Elizabeth, and as I told Willo, I don't care if they are breaking up, declaring undying love for each other or commenting on the weather....it's just a lovely picture all around.

I know what Kate was trying to say, I think.

I think Elizabeth sort of gave up on Will in the cave at the end of CotBP. It seems like she was waiting for a declaration of love, and instead he tells her that her fiance will be worried about her.

So I get that. She may also have been peeved at him earlier in the movie because he didn't call her Elizabeth. She's obviously been trying to get him to call her Elizabeth for some time, so they've seen each other numerous times since they came to Port Royal.

The only real question I have about Elizabeth's feelings for Jack is...do you think her feelings are real, or do you think she may have...confused herself (for lack of a better word) on what she feels for him because of the compass and the flirting?

I have no doubt about Jack's attraction to her, although I hesitate to call it love...but Elizabeth's feelings still seem very up in the air to me, whereas with Will they've always been quite clear.

Comments?

Well, on the one hand, it's easy to blame the attraction on the compass, that it sort of subliminally put thoughts into her head. But is Elizabeth the type of girl to be easily manipulated? Well, she might be trusting and have faith in people, but I'd hardly care her naiive.
We know that the compass doesn't work the way that Jack says it does; the writers have said as much. So, if that is the case, I would say any information from the compass is void. Which, makes her thoughts subversive to her actions. The writers have also mentioned the importance of actions versus words.

It's possible that she may have mistaken her feelings of admiration for Jack as something more. She may even be flattered that someone she holds in high regard, whether she'll admit to it or not, has taken notice of her.

As for the picture, I agree with you there. I see that picture and it makes my heart a little sad for them. There's such desperation on her face as though she's trying to tell him something, and he looks reserved...in a hot way. Ok enough rambling!

Hmm, I wonder if anyone will jump ship. Roles have gotten kind of reversed, haven't they? We all wanted Jack to win her because he seemed to be the underdog, but more and more, there's speculation that now Will will be the underdog trying to win her back or her trying to win him back. Hmm. It does tug at the heartstrings, but I love J/E. Maybe Will will fall in love with someone else.

same here 😱

What did the writers say about the compass that makes you think that the compass doesn't work the way Jack says it does? I recall that they say that it does not point to what your heart desires, only that it points to what you want most, and according to them, that can change quite quickly.

The only thing they don't seem to agree about that is shown in the film is that they would not have had the compass point entirely at Jack, or to at least have immediately swung back toward the chest as oppossed to leaving the audience see it point straight at Jack.

I don't believe that Elizabeth is easily manipulated...however, in a stressful situation, with a seed planted in her mind and feeling a natural attraction to Jack (who wouldn't? 😄 ), is her response that of someone who has true and real feelings for Jack, or just because she is confusing attraction with "what she wants most"?

Understand that I am not trying to say that Elizabeth is not attracted to Jack or that she does not care for him in some way. I'm just not convinced that she is torn between two men because she is really in love with both of them.

I really think that if Norrington hadn't gotten his dig into her about Jack that she would never have wavered on finding the chest. He planted the seed that she likes Jack as "something more", and then it made her think about Jack and wanting him, and that worried her, so she looked at the compass, and her fear was supposedly confirmed. Lots of people confusion attraction and lust as love, so perhaps that's what she did.

I know it's important to note that the very fact that she had doubts about her feelings and I'm not dismissing it. 😄 I think I had a point in all this, but I seem to have lost my train of thought. Someday I might find it again.

I had a question about your statement, Willo. You mentioned that Jack seemed like the underdog; since when? 😄 Will has been the one who's the underdog...don't forget that Gov. Swann still did not seem pleased with Elizabeth's choice, Norrington obviously didn't like it, society wouldn't have liked it, and after the Kiss of Death in DMC, it seems like he's really lost Elizabeth. If anyone has been the underdog, I would say that it's Will.

Or James, but that's a different matter. 😄

haha "Kiss of Death" sounds cool

Well, he was the underdog in the sense that he didn't really have the girl. We (the J/Eers) were all pulling that he would get a girl, one particular girl to be exact. But Will won her at the end of COTBP and she is technically with Will throughout DMC. Will has her. Jack doesn't.
So in that sense, Jack is the underdog, the guy from the wrong side of the tracks that's shooting for a girl above his level that already has a boyfriend. The odds are against him.

He's not an underdog to the fans, though, which is probably why you found that phrase unfitting. But see, everyone is so sure now that while Liz may choose Will, she will love Jack, so now that Will may lose her and have to compete against CAPTAIN JACK SPARROW for her, he's back to the underdog.

It's not who is the underdog in every situation in the series. Just with Liz. If you thought Will didn't have a chance with her in COTBP, Jack most certainly did not.

Originally posted by Surreal_44
What did the writers say about the compass that makes you think that the compass doesn't work the way Jack says it does? I recall that they say that it does not point to what your heart desires, only that it points to what you want most, and according to them, that can change quite quickly.

The only thing they don't seem to agree about that is shown in the film is that they would not have had the compass point entirely at Jack, or to at least have immediately swung back toward the chest as oppossed to leaving the audience see it point straight at Jack.

I don't believe that Elizabeth is easily manipulated...however, in a stressful situation, with a seed planted in her mind and feeling a natural attraction to Jack (who wouldn't? 😄 ), is her response that of someone who has true and real feelings for Jack, or just because she is confusing attraction with "what she wants most"?

Understand that I am not trying to say that Elizabeth is not attracted to Jack or that she does not care for him in some way. I'm just not convinced that she is torn between two men because she is really in love with both of them.

I really think that if Norrington hadn't gotten his dig into her about Jack that she would never have wavered on finding the chest. He planted the seed that she likes Jack as "something more", and then it made her think about Jack and wanting him, and that worried her, so she looked at the compass, and her fear was supposedly confirmed. Lots of people confusion attraction and lust as love, so perhaps that's what she did.

I know it's important to note that the very fact that she had doubts about her feelings and I'm not dismissing it. 😄 I think I had a point in all this, but I seem to have lost my train of thought. Someday I might find it again.

Or James, but that's a different matter. 😄

Seriously, I'm not arguing with you. On the contrary, I think we actually agree on the point, that the emotions of DMC are intentionally vague though they lean more towards Will, as they should. He is her fiancee after all. I'm conceeding that I see your perspective. Though really, I think the huge twist at the end of AWE should be that Elizabeth leaves both Jack and Will for Norrington, the Long-shot-always-sat-on-bench-under-dog.

praise the lord it's my hubby 🙂 *sighs*

Ha! Wow! Seriously, I wondered if the mention of Norrington would bring you running. That's awesome, I bow to your intuitive sense of any and all things Norrington.

Originally posted by savvysparrow
Ha! Wow! Seriously, I wondered if the mention of Norrington would bring you running. That's awesome, I bow to your intuitive sense of any and all things Norrington.

Whoa! So....what does he look like?

no this is the new dmc set of action figures...sorry should have clarified....

ehm..i don´t think...well i can´t be satidfied with idea of will and liz..girls please !!!do try to say something positive on realationship jack and lizzie we were always so positive and we did always keep the faith in every terrible moment also after terrible news about our ship...!!! so why now???why now when AWE is almost here we (almost everyone) change our minds ?? ❌ i can´t believe...it´s so sad...this week almost every day i was thinking about JL and i told myself they probably won´t be together and i am sure they won´t be together and gore wants WL and there is no chance...i was stupid..!! ...why no chance??? there IS CHANCE! ...please girls , say something positive !!!

We're not changing our minds. We're just looking at the other side with some objectivity. Just because we're saying that Will has a shot, doesn't mean that we don't believe the J/E might still happen. I'd say things are on a fairly even keel.