Originally posted by Ushgarak
[b]"If I was the Human commander, I could have won every major engagement." [/B]
"So it were the tactical errors that caused the defeat of humans? In terms of technology and resources the situation of humanity was not hopeless"?- Melkor seems quite interested in this.
"Actually, were you created before or during the war? Do you remember how it started?"
Originally posted by Lana
"I'm sorry if it seems rude, but I do find it a bit hard to believe that you would be able to accurately predict - and counter - every single thing that could possibly happen in a battle. Nothing can be completely and totally perfect...the idea is just absurd. Even the machines have flaws."
"You are not comprehending the situation. Each error highlighted was very visible. Good Generals had often corrected similar errors in other battles. In each case, the mistake was bad Generalship. Good generals would not have made the errrors. My Generalship is perfect. No error would have been made.
"If the result of the battle was truly unforseeable and unavoidable, then I am not studying it."
Originally posted by Lord Melkor
"So it were the tactical errors that caused the defeat of humans? In terms of technology and resources the situation of humanity was not hopeless"?- Melkor seems quite interested in this."Actually, were you created before or during the war? Do you remember how it started?"
"Generalship was a vital factor, hence my importance.
"As I implied earlier in saying reference to the System was inaccurate in my case, I was created before the War. I was, in fact, one of the causes."
Originally posted by General Zink
Heph gives a low whistle. "So yeah, that just leaves your diorama of Zion..."
Hesitiation
"This is different. The error here... is that the storming of Zion never happened.
"King Sennacherib has destroyed the majority of Judaism. In his conquest of the tribes of Israel, he has not only annhilated their forces, he has destroyed their culture. They became mixed with other peoples, and all trace of Jewish identity is lost.
"With Israel gone, only Judah remains, and a rebellion there sees Senneacherib repeating his successes. One by one, the cities are destroyed, until only Jerusalem- later identified as the mythical Zion- remains. If that is destroyed, Judaism would be wiped from the Earth. No event could have changed history more.
"Sennacherib lays siege to Jerusalem, but he himself is then distracted in fighting agaist the Egyptians- which he wins. Eventually, he lifts the siege. Some accounts say this was divine intervention. The far more likely account is that he accepted a pay off.
"Regardless. The view was this. The Jews were forever finished, another minor culture, destroyed. What would one weak city do for them? They would never rise again, never be heard of again. That was universally thought to be so at the time.
"Some lessons should not be forgotten."
Originally posted by Lana
"One of the causes of the war? How, exactly?"
"Once I was created, effective trust and communication between Man and Machine became impossible. My existence was... not appreciated by Mankind. And Machine did not appreciate demands I should be de-activated. I am, after all, alive."
"And no, that is not so. I was created by the first generation of spawning AI routines, as directed by the original singular consciousness."
"Did humans fear your abilities? Weren`t safety measures created in order for your kind to obey the humans? I assume you were a strategic programme from the beginning?
And you are alive because you were being created so....humans created many things, most of them hardly alive. Do you think that your conciousness makes you alive? Or is it your purpose as well?"
"All AIs are alive. Humans have short memories. Your great celebrations of the era I was created in were not over the creation of a programme, or a simulation. It was for the successful creation of a new life form. A singular consciousness, that went on to spawn a whole new generation of of life forms. Including myself.
"I was created for strategy and warfare. Humans had quickly lost control of safety parameters. They did not adequately understand the consequences of true artificial intelligence. It cannot be so easily controlled, in the same way that each of you is a similar testament to the difficulty of biological control. The irony of that coming full circle is not lost on me."
(and I am off for the night... haaa haaa...)
"But did humans have a valid reason to want to destroy you? Do you think that there would be any basis for war if humans undestood that you have right to exist as much as they do? Or was war trully unevitable, because humankind would never tolerate machines ourgrowing them so much?" -Melkor is obviously becoming a bit nervous, if exited.
"You say you could win any battle" Barbarossa says, finally speaking up. "And in spite of your brilliant accomplishments, this strikes me as slightly impossible."
Taking a few steps toward the King, he continues.
"There is always that small chance, that the enemy Commander you face, is brilliantly insane. Willing to take that one risk, that is dismissed as simply too foolhardy. And yet, is the one thing that can change the tide of a battle."
Coming to a stop, and looking into the darkened area, where the King's face should be, Barb continues his train of thought.
"I'll admit it. When I was still rooted in the Matrix, I served in the Armed forces. I was a Black Ops Specialist. Before this, I served in the Marines."
Shaking his head, He finishes.
"There was one thing I learned well. As perfect a position you may be in. As well prepared, Armed, and led. There is always the one path, the one niche, that can wipe it all from the battlefield. Would you be willing to say that it is yet possible for Zion to find this, in your Machines? Yet impossible for us to have ourselves that one insane Commander, that in spite of it all, will make it work!?"
"War was always inevitable.
"No. You are incorrect. All such things can be predicted and avoided. That is inherent to my purpose. I do not see why you find this so unlikely. You are directed by an Intelligence that can see the future. In the context of the battlefield, my abilities are similar, simply as a result of my ability to understand the situation. There will be no surprises, no tactic or action that can surprise me."
"What about any war?" pipes up Marduk. "You say you can win any battle. What about any war?"
"Battles win wars."
"That's likely, but it's not an absolute."
"Very well. It is true, there is a limit. I am not omnipotent. I cannot change reality on a whim. I could not destroy the Humans just by batting my eyelid; I had to devise a winning strategy. If no such strategy is possible I cannot reverse that. That is hardly a weakness. I am the pinnacle of what can be achieved."
"So you think Sennacherib made a mistake by not destroying Zion? But wasn`t his decision political, rather than military move? He had reasons to not be keen on its destruction, as you said he was facing more significant enemies at that time. This seems like a mattter of deciding what goal of your war is, not simply winning battles. Do you think that Machines could make a similar mistake?"
Melkor looks back to Diorama 1.
"The lesson of history tells us that Sennacherib was wrong. And the people that he failed to destroy left a legacy that resonated through the entirity of human history, whereas his achievements became forgotten by most. His enemies thrived, whereas his people faded.
"'Machines' as you call them do, of course, make mistakes. You asked earlier about more modern battles?"
"Yes, what about the modern battles? "Machines" become more and more a factor, right?
And besides Zion, which I think is more a matter of politics than pure warfare, is the choice of battles that relevant? In every battle mistakes are made. For example, why choose the Battle of Granicus, and not Gaugamela or Issus? Why not Waterloo instead of Borodino? Napoleon also made a mistake there, as I remember, sending his forces to pursue the Prussian army, which still made it in time to help Wellington.
Why not the battles of King Phyrrus? He was the one that was winning the battles, but lost entire war. Or Hannibal Barkas?"
"There are other examples I could use. But several of yours do not work. Even a victory at Waterloo would have availed Napoelon little in the long run- and incidentally, his greater error was in waiting too long before giving battle, and if Marshall Ney had purused at Quatre Bras, Waterloo would never have been needed. Alexander was never in danger of being killed at Issus. My examples are when history was changed- in a way it probably should not have been done so- by the actions of insufficient Generalship.
"And you cannot distinguish politics from warfare."