Traitors and Mutineers...No one is safe!

Okay, I'll probably get shot down, but we were discussing before how AWE would have a lot of throwbacks to COTBP, kind of bookending the series. Someone has a great sig of Liz and Barbossa and labeled it "the traitor and the mutineer," and that inspired this question/idea.

Jack says in COTBP that the deepest circle of hell is reserved for traitors and mutineers. If Dante has anything to say about it, he's right. From what I've heard, everybody is going to backstab everybody in AWE and several characters have already betrayed each other.

So my thought is that maybe we will see some other "hell-like" situation besides Jack's Purgatory/Locker. Liz has already screwed up, Barbossa's a mutineer, Jack, depending how you look at things, has betrayed people and will do so in AWE, and Will will also, so who is safe? Not to defend Jack too much, but if you never really intend for someone to get hurt (such as saying he'll tell Barbossa the name but had no intention of really doing so), then are you a traitor? If he's the most innocent one by the time AWE starts as far as backstabbing goes, the others may be in a sort of Locker of their own, or in a reality where their nightmares and fears start playing out. Just a thought.

Wow,I never thought of any of that.

Well, that's an interesting thought. The writers have said that AWE will be about choices and the consequences of those choices. Sometimes becoming an adult is accepting the consequences of your actions even though those consequences are too horrible to comprehend.

I've always thought that in order for the characters to achieve some sort of arch, they'll have to give up what they want most. So, from a certain perspective, Will on some level will have to give up living happily ever after with Elizabeth.

Elizabeth is a little trickier, but either she'll have to give up Will, unlikely, or she'll have to give up her freedom in order for her story to be complete.

Jack is more interesting because he's already been to Purgatory, but I don't think he's quite learned his lesson yet. He's chained to the fate of the Pearl because he sacrificed his principles in giving up his soul to Jones. In order to achieve a character arch, I would surmise that he'll have to give up the Pearl, and possibly Elizabeth.

Does that make sense? I'll try to explain it more clearly if I need to, but I agree with your idea. I think you're onto something!

It does make sense. I don't know that Jack would have to give up the Pearl or Liz, but something along the lines of almost losing them might do the trick. It's hard to appreciate something if no one's ever threatened to take it away from you. At least when Jack was in the Locker he had the Pearl and in most of his tough problems, Liz was around to help out. I think the closest he came to really losing either was when he made the decision to abandon the Pearl. If he had gotten to abandon it, maybe we would see a different kind of Jack. But as for the others, I really wonder how much suffering is going to go on.

Well, quite a bit if the rumors are true. They'll all endure a major loss in their lives, Elizabeth especially. Essentially, if you think of all the characters as having principals at the end of the first film, and then think of how those principals were sacrificed on some level to gain what they wanted, you'll see why the punishment is so severe. They weren't true to their inner character, if that makes sense. Look at Norrington for example. He made a very noble sacrifice at the end of COTBP, which added great depth to his character. But by the end of DMC, he had sacrificed all that he gained in the first film for his "honour." Judging from the leaked scripts, the good man he once was has disappeared on some level, so the suffering has to force him to regain his true honour.

I'm not sure that what Will wants most is to live happily with Elizabeth. I think what he wants most is plain old Elizabeth, and I think what Elizabeth wants most is Will.

They might have to give that up, or they may be forced to be seperated for a length of time as a 'punishment' of sorts.

Then again, I'm not sure what each character wants most, but I do think that they will have to suffer and then redeem themselves.

But do you think it will be a hell-like suffering, something like the other plain of existence Jack will be found in? I don't know if I mean figuratively or literally, but if such a big deal is made about them all becoming traitors and a whole line about what happens to traitors, I see that as a link.

I think in a way they all want freedom most, even Will for you skeptics out there. Will was not happy being some drunk guy's measly apprentice watching everyone else have all the fun. Liz, we all know Liz wants to be free, it's just a matter of the context in which she'll feel she is the most free. Jack has always wanted to be free and I think he's going through a period where he's wondering if he should redefine what freedom is.

I'm not sure about that, I'll have to ponder it.

I'm not sure I would classify Jack as completely "innocent" either, because regardless of intentions, he was sometimes very wreckless with other peoples' lives (and souls). Even if he had a plan to save everyone in the end, it doesn't mean that he has the right to barter with something that does not truly belong to him. 😄

Very true, and innocent was a poor choice of words. However, I don't think traitor or mutineer really fit Jack up to this point. I'm sure that will change once AWE comes out, but as of now, he isn't either of those things. Wreckless? At times. Too secretive about his plans? Yes. But if you listen to when he says the line, he doesn't think much of people who betray and mutiny, and that's probably why he holds Bootstrap in such a high regard. I'm sure he heard what happened to Bootstrap after Bootstrap defended Jack and said the crew deserved to be cursed. And as I said before, if Jack is "innocent," he's not going to stay that way long. I'm just saying as of right now, he's in the most hellish place out of all of them and he probably deserves it the least (or close to the least).

I don't think any of the protagonists deserve what Jack is going through. And I'm not sure his motivations were any better than say Will's desire to save his father or Elizabeth wishing to save Will and herself and the crew.

Jack seems to know the difference (or he did...as you say, much can change in AWE) between a real betrayal (done for selfish reasons), or a betrayal done because of absolute desperation for another.

Now, as for characters suffering...I think they will. I suspect that they will have forms of suffering and/or sacrifice that will have to be fulfilled before their arcs are completed.

Oh, and I'm so pleased that you pointed out how Will wanted freedom too. He seems far too intelligent and gentlemanly to have simply wanted to remain a blacksmith, trapped in a drudgery-filled life. I think he wanted to shake off the constraints of society just as much as Elizabeth, but I don't think he dreamed of it as often, simply because he's more of a realist than she is. 😄

I think if their wedding had never been interrupted, Will might have gone for a naval position or something. That provides the adventure he wants, but with security and boundaries, not to mention being on the right side of the law. Liz could go with him so she wouldn't be a bored little drudge. But fate intervenes....

You don't think any single person deserves to be in the Locker? I do.

lol I made my siggy this morning having this very thing in mind

wow! what a coincidence!!! 😄hehe

✅

Gosh....Lizzie really looks wicked in that siggy, Amber

lizzie is wicked..but in a good way 🙂
by the way nice siggy lovethemtigers!
nice siggy everybody!

😄 i liked the wickedness I thought it went along with Barbsy

^^it does!!! and very nicely!

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I think if their wedding had never been interrupted, Will might have gone for a naval position or something. That provides the adventure he wants, but with security and boundaries, not to mention being on the right side of the law. Liz could go with him so she wouldn't be a bored little drudge. But fate intervenes....

You don't think any single person deserves to be in the Locker? I do.

Who? All of them, or only a few? My guess is that you're thinking Elizabeth deserves to be in the locker. Is that correct? Or are you also thinking of Norrington? What actions define punishment as great as the locker, in your opinion? I'm curious as to how you would define it. It seems you are more sympathetic with Jack though of all the characters, he's not necessarily led the life of inherrent nobility.

Beckett could go to the locker. He's mean enough. Him and Mercer.

Not Davy though. All he really needs is a hug. hug

Although maybe thats all Beckett needs too.

Not Mercer though. That guy is pure evil.