Lovethemtiger I agree with you.How do Will and Liz know if they really love each other.Maybe Liz just wanted to be in love.As many young girls she was in love with love itself.There was Will.And remember in COTBP she says in the end that Will is a pirate.It seems like she wanted to be in love and to be in love with a pirate.But first loves aren't always last for a lifetime.There may come an other love,and that might not be a young girl's,but a grown up woman's.
Oh dear. For the love of everything holy, Jack and Liz is not going to happen, no matter how many flimsy ideas of proof you guys put together!!
Tigers - Will didn't called Liz by her first name because it was a case of class. Liz is the Governor's Daughter and high class, and therefore those "commoners" had to show respect, which is what Will insisted on doing.
*walks off sings "Not Gonna Happen" in a gospel style with a tambourine"
Kenny, you'd better watch yo-self. 😉 It's nice to have opinions, but unless you are working on the film or are one of the writers, I wouldn't make hard and fast directives. it ain't over till the fat strumpet sings, savvy?
A kiss and a compass aren't OUR flimsy proof--- that was the idea of the film-makers, in case you've forgotten. Plus, when your ship is as hott as Sparrabeth, you don't need proof. All you need is a ship and some rum. 🙂
Originally posted by Kenny16
I don't think I'd want to be on a "ship as hot as Sparrabeth" thats got a lot of rum on board.And I'll say it again, cos I know it's winding you up, Jack and Liz is not going to happen. Who here would seriously want to settle down with someone who has killed them?
Kenny, darling, I'll just give you the facts one more time.
1. girls like bad boys.
2. nice guys finish last
3. lust can be far more powerful than devotion or puppy love--- check the cheating and divorce rates
4. this is a PIRATE movie--- they none of them have good morals. this isnt the princess bride.
5. Jack is the money of the film. If he doesn't really want Elizabeth, then fine, no one cares. But if he does, audiences will want him to have her. Thats the way movie idolism goes.
6. pirate in eyeliner+confused ingenue+ sexy, forbidden kiss= 1 billion dollars
Alright, all that said, you can go back to your One True Love world. 😉 All this arguing is more fun than i thought it would be. hehehe. As you know, i fully expect Will and Elizabeth to get married, but that has to do with other spoilers I've been told... not just because its the only logical thing to happen.
Ooh, Kate...I gotta respond, even if it sounds mean...
Are those facts or just matters of opinion? 😛 I can honestly tell you that as a girl, I may like the bad boy, but I'd rather take the good man any day. More dependable, less likely to flirt with other women (or men 😛 ).
Good guys don't always finish last. If they did, there'd be no happily ever afters....ever. 😄
Yes, the divorce rate is high because of lust, which doesn't really say much for your ship, does it? 😛 In other words, since Jack and Liz are so randy, they couldn't trust each other to stay faithful.
I'll grant you that it's a pirate movie and none of them have good morals. 😄 We agree on something!!!
Jack is the money of the film...but ask most people who don't analize how the sun shines in a particular direction onto the deck that creates a shadow that if you squint and tilt your head to the right and forward slightly, resembles a heart....ask THOSE peopel who don't examine every little screencap, they'll tell you that W/E will end up together.
So yeah...I don't think that the money is tied up into whether Jack gets the girl. Whether Jack is happy, possibly, but even with the trailer out with a blatant W/E kiss, At World's End is already the most anticipated film of the summer, beating out Spiderman.
Romance is shockingly not what most people who see these films care about.
I agree with your last statement, except I would add in Scruffington, awesome special effects and the fact that you had to see the film at least two or three times to get the whole wonderful story.
Now....
Why are Elizabeth and Will in love?
Who knows? Why are Jack and Elizabeth in love? Forget a hot kiss and existentialism (or however you spell the bloody word) and symbolism on freedom and all that jazz.
Why are Jack and Elizabeth in love?
You can't explain it to me so that I'd understand, and that's true with Will and Elizabeth as well.
Sometimes you just love someone for no reason, except that when you look at them your heart jumps and your knees go weak and you know that no matter what happens, you would die for them.
Does it always make sense? No. Some people you just get that instant connection, and you feel as if you've found a part of your soul that you didn't even know was missing until you looked at that person. 😄 That's love.
oh holy crap stop. lol. boooo. how many bloody times do i have to bloody say i flipping bloody agree that bloody stupid will and elizabeth will bloody get married?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I AM NOT ARGUING THAT JACK AND ELIZABETH WILL END UP TOGETHER~!!!!! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THAT?~!??
i dont think anyone can say I EVER argue on shadows, heart shapes, or distant histories for the strength of my ship. so dont argue with me about that, because i never said anything like that to begin with.
who would ever ask Jack or Elizabeth to stay faithful? They're PIRATES.
Nobody cares whether Will and Elizabeth get married, they mainly come for Captain Jack. I'd argue that point. The only reason Elizabeth became more interesting to audiences and critics was because she got involved with the money of the film.
ok Surreal..*cracks knuckles* (though i can't crack my knuckles. but that is beside the point)
Concerning the girls go for bad boys deal. Yes they do, and it is also true that they often end up chosing the guy with the wonderful morals. But, taking all the rumors and facts about AWE into consideration, we won't be able to call Will a 'good boy' as we could in COTBP, or even in DMC. And after it all, I doubt the Bad boy/Good boy issue will come out on top. It's about more than that.
And yes, it's true, good guys don't always finish last in movies. Especially Disney ones. And most Disney happy endings are with the good guy. Maybe all up to this point are. But it all depends on the character, and their idea of a happy ending.
And who says all there is between Jack and Lizzie is lust? They are very much alike, and they are good friends. Friends. I said this before months ago. Jack and Lizzie have good times together. They smile, they joke, they laugh. This is, in my opinion, one of the most important things in a relationship. To be able to be with eachother and have a good time. Will and Liz to me have a puppy love relationship, and there has been no proof that they were great friends, or are. It seems to me that Will fell in love with Liz from afar, and to an extent, this is the same with Liz. I can't think of a moment in the movies where Liz and Will had a fun, casual conversation. And I think there is something to be said about this in relationships.
And yes. Jack is the money. And although not everyone analyzes, the writers do include forshadowing, and subtle hints. And TnT aren't just writing this movie for the people who don't analyze. They will do what they think makes sense. And I know many people who prefer Jack with Liz and don't analyse the movie to near the completness that we do here. I don't know how you don't see the evidence for Jack and Liz, Surreal. It's not all in the little details. I think there was some pretty obvious evidence in the movie.
And I agree that the money does not lie in whether Jack gets the girl, because there are a good number of both J/E shippers and W/E shippers, and the ones who don't care will want to see the main characters happy. And the kiss between Will and Liz doesn't mean any one thing at this point, as we don't know the context in which the kiss is placed. You can't just assume the end of one of the bigger questions for the next movie by something that was in the trailer. Disney isn't that stupid. There are goign to be many twists and turns, and you can't count on that kiss to be the end of the Jack/Liz/Will question.
Romance isn't what makes this film, to be sure, but it is very important, as it affects everything else.
Why do Jack and Liz love each other, excluding the symbolism and the they look hot together argument? And the kiss? I'm not going to go into a long rant, but I'd say something along the lines of they enjoy being in each other's company, for both romantic reasons and not. And they understand eachother. They can see the real person in the other. I can't say the same thing about Will and Liz. I'm not sure that he sees that Liz is an independant young woman. Jack loved her because he knows she is trapped in the mold of how she should be, but longs for freedom and adventure. Will saw the beautiful and proper lady. He might be able to love her for who she will become, but Jack saw it in her, and he liked, if not loved, her for who she really is, from the beginning.
I agree with what everyones been saying.
I mean, it's never been that kind of raw, passionate love with Will & Liz. I think Liz was just, so in love with the thought of being in love.
I'm obviously a sparrabeth shipper, but if you really think about it, it's disney. The girl ends with the good guy...the one they portray to be the love of her life.
And the whole 'its just lust' thing...I mean, maybe it is, maybe its not...no one really -knows- how jack thinks. His mind is a mystery, and thats what everyone loves about him.
I just think Will and Jack love Liz differently as to how Liz loves them both differently. Will loves the proper lady she was around her family, with her being the perfect lil daughter of the governor. But Jack, loves the wild side of her, the pirate side, where shes free and careless.
Well, thats my rant for the afternoon...lol
"Why are Jack and Elizabeth in love? Forget a hot kiss and existentialism (or however you spell the bloody word) and symbolism on freedom and all that jazz.
Why are Jack and Elizabeth in love?"----Surreal
For the same reason Rhett and Scarlett are in love. They see an extension of themselves in the other person. Am I arguing that they are without a doubt in love and will end up together? No. I am not 100% sure of anything that will happen in AWE. But if they share a mutual love, that's the reason right there. Soulmates.
"I just think Will and Jack love Liz differently as to how Liz loves them both differently. Will loves the proper lady she was around her family, with her being the perfect lil daughter of the governor. But Jack, loves the wild side of her, the pirate side, where shes free and careless."---pirates life
Hmm, I have to disagree here. You're probably all going to think I'm just going back and forth, but I can't discount Will. If he's loved her from afar for a long time, he probably knows she's not the proper lady she's supposed to be. I think he admires her bravery, her unconventionalism, and her intelligence. It's those things that got her to agree to marry him in the first place since no perfect governor's daughter would have ever married a blacksmith. He places a higher value on her than just some well-bred lady. He was the one who taught her how to fight, remember. He most likely doesn't love the true pirate side of her, but I think he's attracted to her sense of adventure and her other "amaiable qualities," to quote Mr. Collins (Tom Hollander rocks!)
And I think it unfair to say that if Jack loves her, he loves only a part of her. He's more attracted to her when she's being a pirate, yes, but I think he's at least amused by her proper side. She's not afraid to try to be a good person, while he doesn't believe he can be one anymore, so he has to be a little envious of her there. And he's not so infatuated with the pirate Liz so much that he finds those pants arousing. "It should be a dress or nothing."
I'll put my two cents worth in...but I don't have time to be very analytical..but....as far as I see it...
Why are Jack and Elizabeth in love?....well, Willo said it best...they see an extension of themselves in each other..
Jack said it best in the curiosity scene...."we are very much a like you and i, i - you, us. You will come over to my side I know it?
One word, luv, curisoity...you long for freedom, you long to do what you want to do because you want it...to act on selfish impulse...you want to know what it feels like..one day you won't be able to resist....
and Liz's response...
You and I are alike, and there will come a moment when you have the chance to do the right thing...you're going to do something really courageous and when you do..you'll discover something, that you're a good man....
So, basically...both of them are good people with a little bit of Pirate in them..they long for freedom...I think by Jack saying that..to me it implies that she can't be all those things with Willl...Will is honorable and always chooses the straight and narrow path, or at least he tries to...I know he will become a little darker in the next movie..Orlando has said that himself....but....Will would always expect Elizabeth to uphold the law and such and such..Jack is implying that with him she could do whatever she wants...they go be adventurous together...and you know what...I don't care what you guys say..Jack could be faithful if He found the right woman...it happens alot..where confirmed bachelors meet the girl of their dreams, fall in love and never wander again..and stay faithful to their soulmate, their true love....
think back to the Persuade Me scene...
Might I inquire has how you came by these...
Persuasion'
Friendly
Decidedly not.
Will strikes a deal for these and upholds it with honor, yet YOU are the one standing here with the prize...
Liz hijacks a ship and doesn't fire one single shot...and makes the ship take her to Tortuga....
and right here is when Ted and Terry are talking about it....they say..Now who does that sound like...
Liz is even dressing like Jack...
Liz and Jack complete each other...and who says Liz doesn't light up when she sees Jack...If I remember correctly... she gets little fleeting looks of embarrasment and blushes when Jack tells her the Compass points to the thing you want most in this world...
Liz is fantazising/daydreaming about Jack and just what Persuading him might entail..and good Old Norrington notices...
"it's a curious thing, there was a time when i would have given anything for you to look like that while thinking about me"...and he is not talking about Will..he's talking about Jack...and Liz's response..
"I don't know what you mean" (she can't believe Norrie caught her daydreaming about Jack)
"Oh I think you do."
"don't be ridiculous, I trust him that's all"
and Norrie laughs and shakes his head and says
"so, you never wondered how your latest fiance ended up on the Flying Dutchman in the first place?"..again smiling and shaking his head
In other words, he is accusing Elizabeth of having such rose colored glasses on around Jack..she can't see when he is playing her....
and let us not forget Beckett picking up vibes from her..."Captain Jack Sparrow, yes, I thought you might"...and he is looking right at Liz when he says that....
Beckett has been keeping tabs on them, I do believe
and then when he says "a marraige interuppted...or fate intervenes, you make great efforts to ensure the freedom of jack sparrow....
and liz responds defensively, "these are not for Jack"
Beckett responds "oh really"..(like he doesn't really beleive her)
and the compass...oh that darn compass...we learn through jack that the compass points to the thing you want MOST in this WORLD....
and afterwards on two occasions, when Liz is holding it ..it points to jACK..
now, ted and terry have said that on the island it points to the chest, but the important thing here...is that LIz believes that it is pointing to jack...and the fact that she believes this..is proof enough to me that she is starting to wonder if she has feelings for jack..and this upsets her because she knows that she has loved will for a long time, planned to marry him...but now after seeing Jack again and spending time with him, she is very confused...so much so...that when the opportune moment presents itself...she acts on selfish impulse...and gets rid of the temptation...by slaking her lust and drowning her guilt....
and for the arguement..that why would someone want to be with someone who killed them..well, this is basically a fantasy film...so I would think that in the world of Pirates and supernatural happenings...Jack will come to understand, in fact I think in a way he already knows, why Liz did what she did..and he will forgive her..she is a young and irrational girl afterall...but she is growing up more and more....
yeah lovethemtigers i totally agree with you...i just don´t get it too...i´ve never seen anything between them but gore wants it W/L i think it´s THE ONLY ONE REASON !!!...i read some articles which gore said/wrote about J/L W/L i think more about W/L...that they´ll realize in AWE that their story might end up like davys and they´ll want to make it up...🙁 i doubt it... i hope
Wow, I think Surreals best friend is Kenny since they both like to argue 😛
Kenny, I didn't know Ted or Terry died and made a will for you stating that you can take their place and say what's going to happen in the movie?
You don't like sparrabeth? Well, it won't stop us from living or
loving sparrabeth.
Im actually laughing my obsessive sparrabeth ass off with this debate lmao! It never stops. Where's the love? 🙂