I did, and you said that Bastilla would "firmly beat anybody I named".
Here's what you posted:
I think Mara Jade would do more than touch her. Her training as an Emperor's Hand and her additional training with Luke and war experience make her a formidable opponent. As I recall, she beat Lumiya once, too.
Bastilla really isn't uberpowerful, Nebaris. She's less than Maul. 馃槚
Edit: And Depa, btw, would WTFpwn Bastilla - who is nowhere near being close to Mace - and Depa was stated to be a better swordsman than him.
Not seeing Malak's name anywhere... And just so you know, I was only talking about the females you mentioned, as you also mentioned Luke, and obviously he would beat Bastilla, not even I would go that far.
Wrong. Malak isn't on that list, and if you mean "someone I mentioned", then she'd go down to Maul, Depa, and Mace. Hard.
Firstly, I think you're getting confused with what I'm referring to. Here's what you posted (which I was referring to):
Mara? No.
Lumiya? No.
Malak? She lost to him already.
Maul? Hell no.
Depa? Lmao, Nebaris, I'm losing sympathy for you and my feelings of hospitality and neutrality are fading. Depa would annihilate her in lightsaber combat.
Mace? Dream on, my friend. Dream on.
So yes, Malak was on the list that I was referring to (which was evident given I quoted it...).
Secondly, except for Malak, she is more powerful than any of those. I bet I can make a better case for her than you can for them.
Because your opinions eventually cross the line from supportable to completely stupid.
Look dude, I don't think too much of your 'Mace owns all darksiders because of Vaapad' or 'DE Sidious beats NJO Luke' theories, but I still remain civil, so I expect the same from you.
Right. And "random Dark Jedi X" > Powerful Sith Lord.
Since when was having the 'Sith Lord' title a prerequisite for being a powerful darksider? In case you hadn't noticed, there were only two darksiders available to Sidious during Maul's time, in contrast to the entire order during the KotOR period. The fact that the DJ Bastilla owned was an elite of an entire order of darksiders speaks for far more than Maul being the second best sith in an order consisting of a whole two force users. Especially considering:
1. The fact that the KotOR sith order was all about militancy, whereas Sidious' was about stealth, guile, deception and manipulation,
and
2. The fact that Revan had a much larger and greater selection of force users to pick from (given how many powerful jedi were falling in those days, whereas Sidious' selection was very limited, given the Jedi were usually the first to discover powerful force sensitive babies, and Sidious was left with the Jedi's leftovers or who they missed out).
Maul is "one of the deadliest Sith apprentices in history" (according to the Visual Guide, which is more canon than your interpretations of some weak Dark Jedi). There goes your entire point.
Not really, given the fact that the VG quote refers to Bane's order (smaller selection), and the fact that the Dark jedi in question or anybody in the KotOR era doesn't apply to the filter.
Furthermore, yes, that's exactly Sidious's intent. Recruit some weak Force user and dedicate twenty years into indoctrinating him in the Force to become his apprentice and enforcer. Right.That was sarcasm, by the way, as his entire M.O. has been to get the "stronger apprentice".
The sarcasms great and all, but what you don't seem to get is that Sidious' selection of apprentices consisted of:
a) Force sensitive babies that the Jedi felt were too weak to be trained as Jedi,
or
b) Force Sensitive babies that the Jedi missed out on.
There's also the fact that he likely held Maul back more than anything (given he didn't really teach him any true sith secrets, or even basic darkside stuff such as force lightning), and again, there's also the fact that Sidious' order worked in secrecy, and that Maul's experience (battle experience especially) was pretty lacking.
Yet, I gave it to you.
No you didn't.
Damn it, MasterBane. I cannot understad how can you possibly compare a random dark jedi that even the not-so-special Bastila defeated EASILY with one of the deadliest Sith Apprentices of all time... its simply idiotic... with the proofs Gideo gave YOU, you must change your opinion... if not, youre really out of your mind
Originally posted by Riverollv
Damn it, MasterBane. I cannot understad how can you possibly compare a random dark jedi that even the not-so-special Bastila defeated EASILY with one of the deadliest Sith Apprentices of all time... its simply idiotic... with the proofs Gideo gave YOU, you must change your opinion... if not, youre really out of your mind
What the...?
Let's put things into perspective.
1. Sidious' selection of apprentices consisted of the force sensitive babies that the Jedi either missed out on or skipped on (due to low potential). Revan's selection of Dark Jedi was much larger, given the fact that many Jedi had fallen to the Dark Side during the end of the Mandalorian Wars, and even more were being turned during the JCW. The selection even consisted of former Jedi Masters and Council Members. There's also the fact that Revan's order consisted of hundreds of DJ whereas Sidious' consisted of only two...
2. Revan's order of darksiders was one of the most militant orders of force users ever, that focused on combat. Sidious' order was one that focused on stealth, deception and manipulation. Logic dictates that an order that focused more on combat would produce more powerful combatants than an order that focused on secrecy, assassination and stealth. The darkside training for Revan's order would have been much more combat orientated. Hell, they even had multiple academies with the sole purpose of producing warriors.
3. The KotOR era was far more martial than the PT era, and thus battle experience and general combat would have been a much bigger aspect of sith life. Wartime generally brings the best out in warriors, and sorts out the weak from the strong. The PT era was relatively peaceful, and Maul really didn't do too many missions for his master, and fought hardly any jedi in his lifetime.
So what we're essentially getting down to is that both the DJ in question and Darth Maul are among the elite in their respective orders, but the things is, the DJ in question is in the elite of a much larger order (much larger doesn't even cut it, an order of 2 is hardly comparable to an order of hundreds...), with a finer selection of darksiders, who faced much more experience (as well as experience of a greater quality - pure battle and war experience, consisting of lots of Jed on Dark jedi action), and who were trained to be warriors (whereas Maul was basically trained to be an assassin). I'd say logic dictates that the DJ was more powerful, despite the lack of exposure.
Originally posted by Apollo CloudRight right, and despite of that sidious whom has never fought a jedi before i believe easily slaughtered and annihilated 3 jedi masters with a swift stroke of the saber and instantly killed 3 sith masters who had enough power to ressurect life.
What the...?Let's put things into perspective.
1. Sidious' selection of apprentices consisted of the force sensitive babies that the Jedi either missed out on or skipped on (due to low potential). Revan's selection of Dark Jedi was much larger, given the fact that many Jedi had fallen to the Dark Side during the end of the Mandalorian Wars, and even more were being turned during the JCW. The selection even consisted of former Jedi Masters and Council Members. There's also the fact that Revan's order consisted of hundreds of DJ whereas Sidious' consisted of only two...
2. Revan's order of darksiders was one of the most militant orders of force users ever, that focused on combat. Sidious' order was one that focused on stealth, deception and manipulation. Logic dictates that an order that focused more on combat would produce more powerful combatants than an order that focused on secrecy, assassination and stealth. The darkside training for Revan's order would have been much more combat orientated. Hell, they even had multiple academies with the sole purpose of producing warriors.
3. The KotOR era was far more martial than the PT era, and thus battle experience and general combat would have been a much bigger aspect of sith life. Wartime generally brings the best out in warriors, and sorts out the weak from the strong. The PT era was relatively peaceful, and Maul really didn't do too many missions for his master, and fought hardly any jedi in his lifetime.
So what we're essentially getting down to is that both the DJ in question and Darth Maul are among the elite in their respective orders, but the things is, the DJ in question is in the elite of a much larger order (much larger doesn't even cut it, an order of 2 is hardly comparable to an order of hundreds...), with a finer selection of darksiders, who faced much more experience (as well as experience of a greater quality - pure battle and war experience, consisting of lots of Jed on Dark jedi action), and who were trained to be warriors (whereas Maul was basically trained to be an assassin). I'd say logic dictates that the DJ was more powerful, despite the lack of exposure.
He never took part in war either. Lets talk about the PT jedi, they fought in the clone wars, and the CW is ALOT bigger than JCW. Brings out the best huh
Originally posted by Apollo CloudLet's put things into perspective.
1. Sidious' selection of apprentices consisted of the force sensitive babies that the Jedi either missed out on or skipped on (due to low potential). Revan's selection of Dark Jedi was much larger, given the fact that many Jedi had fallen to the Dark Side during the end of the Mandalorian Wars, and even more were being turned during the JCW. The selection even consisted of former Jedi Masters and Council Members. There's also the fact that Revan's order consisted of hundreds of DJ whereas Sidious' consisted of only two...
2. Revan's order of darksiders was one of the most militant orders of force users ever, that focused on combat. Sidious' order was one that focused on stealth, deception and manipulation. Logic dictates that an order that focused more on combat would produce more powerful combatants than an order that focused on secrecy, assassination and stealth. The darkside training for Revan's order would have been much more combat orientated. Hell, they even had multiple academies with the sole purpose of producing warriors.
3. The KotOR era was far more martial than the PT era, and thus battle experience and general combat would have been a much bigger aspect of sith life. Wartime generally brings the best out in warriors, and sorts out the weak from the strong. The PT era was relatively peaceful, and Maul really didn't do too many missions for his master, and fought hardly any jedi in his lifetime.
So what we're essentially getting down to is that both the DJ in question and Darth Maul are among the elite in their respective orders, but the things is, the DJ in question is in the elite of a much larger order (much larger doesn't even cut it, an order of 2 is hardly comparable to an order of hundreds...), with a finer selection of darksiders, who faced much more experience (as well as experience of a greater quality - pure battle and war experience, consisting of lots of Jed on Dark jedi action), and who were trained to be warriors (whereas Maul was basically trained to be an assassin). I'd say logic dictates that the DJ was more powerful, despite the lack of exposure.
So you're basically saying any random dark jedi which formed part of Revan's army could beat Maul? Right... which part of "ONE OF THE DEADLIEST SITH APPRENTICES EVER" do you not get?
So you're basically saying any random dark jedi which formed part of Revan's army could beat Maul?
No, I'm saying that any top Dark Jedi within that order could.
Right... which part of "ONE OF THE DEADLIEST SITH APPRENTICES EVER" do you not get?
And what don't you get about that purely applying to the Ro2 lineage? Really, Maul being one of the best of a lineage that were in hiding (and thus wouldn't have the same kind of experience that wartime sith lords would), and that focused on secrecy rather than sheer combat (training would have been more in stealth and assassination rather than pure combat oriented techniques) doesn't speak too much. There's also the fact that when the Ultimate Visual Guide is talking about apprentices, it's really talking about apprentices who never became Masters, otherwise said Sith Lords wouldn't really be considered apprentices. Now given that the majority of apprentices in the Ro2 lineage killed their masters and became the masters themselves, we're talking about quite a small number of people here, I'd estimate about 20 tops. So really, all that statement amounts to is that Maul was one of the best of a small group of apprentices in an order that were in hiding and who focused on stealth rather than sheer combat...
You're an idiot. Maul is directly stated to be one of the deadliest and most skilled Sith in the history of the Order.
Do I really need to go back and start calling you LiarSnake again? Please, don't lie, that's never said.
Palpatine chose him ebcause he sensed great potential and raised him to be a perfect weapon.
Not denying he did, but you can't deny his selection was pretty limited.
End of story. Kthx, dumbass
Not really, you actually didn't add anything new to the debate, so your post would be what I call a 'waste of time post.' The story isn't over, b1tch.
Wow! Maul was selected by Palpatine because he had great potential. And how do you go about arguing about Palpatine's limited options? He had an entire galaxy of force sensitive infants to choose from. Maul was trained to be a one man army, and was quite simply one of the deadliest Sith in history (not just in the Bane leagacy of Sith).
He was cultivated by the most powerful Sith in history to be a near perfect instrument of destruction, not even Dooku received such intense training under Palps. And as you quite rightly mentioned only got killed by Obi Wan because of his arrogance.
How in the hell does some random Dark Jedi, who never even warranted any mention, get to even be compared to Maul.
Let's put things into perspective,
Qui Gon Jin > Random Dark Jedi
Qui Gon Jin > Bastila
Darth Maul > Qui Gon Jin in combat.
Bastila's claim to fame is her natural apptitude towards Battle Meditation, beyond that she's mostly average (i.e. above canon-fodder Dark Jedi but still well below exceptional).
Maul was an exceptional fighter, the random Dark Jedi wasn't (by any stretch of the imagination).
Also, it should be noted that Bane's Sith had increased opportunities for training and learning as a result of the greatly decreased competition within their ranks. So, their training would normally be of a higher quality. That's why random dark Jedi got pwned by a padawan like Bastila.
Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
My bad, I forgot that more exposure = more power. I guess that C3PO can own just about any Dark jedi within KotOR too then.
If that's your counter argument then it's piss poor (to say the least). For one 3PO is protocol droid and although he can adapt to his experiences, he's not force sensitive and his protocol programming prevents him from gaining combat experience.
For a force sensitve a combination of natural talent and exposure lead to a greater mastery of the force. Palpatine trained Maul intensely and continually tested his mettle and skills. As has been mentioned before a Jedi/Sith thrives on such exposure, becoming more powerful or more skillful every time they survive.
Maul was trained specifically to be an instrument of destruction (almost from infancy), making him one of the most powerful Sith in history, when it comes to combat. And even still, hadn't reached his full potential at the time of his death (that tells you about the potential Palpy saw in him).
If that's your counter argument then it's piss poor (to say the least).
You would know If I had made a counter argument, esse.
For one 3PO is protocol droid and although he can adapt to his experiences, he's not force sensitive and his protocol programming prevents him from gaining combat experience.
But he's featured in more sources, ergo he's more powerful. 馃槺
For a force sensitve a combination of natural talent and exposure lead to a greater mastery of the force.
LMAO, you're totally missing what I'm saying. When I say exposure, I mean to us, the readers. You see, Maul has his own comicbook series, a few novels as well as a movie largely based on him. Thus, he's more powerful than the Dark Jedi, who only briefly appeared in one game. Now don't even try to step to me on this, my logic is foolproof.
Palpatine trained Maul intensely and continually tested his mettle and skills. As has been mentioned before a Jedi/Sith thrives on such exposure, becoming more powerful or more skillful every time they survive.
That's all good, but training isn't everything, real life experience counts for way more, and it's something Maul is seriously lacking in.
There's also the fact that while he did train him pretty well, he also more than likely held him back (to stop Maul from ever growing more powerful than him. Dooku actually explains the system quite well in Dark Rendezvous, it's based on the idea that you have complete control over your apprentice's progress, and limit him to the point where he/she can never challenge you, but also make sure that said apprentice progresses well and can be used well as a tool. The fact that Sidious never taught Maul lightning supports this).
Maul was trained specifically to be an instrument of destruction (almost from infancy),
That's great, however much of his training was aimed to make him the perfect spy and assassin, not a pure warrior, which is how the DJ of old were trained.
making him one of the most powerful Sith in history, when it comes to combat.
Right, because your weird and random ramblings have totally proven that. I mean despite the fact that he had barely mastered one form, and despite the fact that he was getting his ass kicked by padawan Obi-Wan, and despite the fact that he never once showed anything too spectacular with the force, he's still totally one of the most powerful sith lords. 馃檮
And even still, hadn't reached his full potential at the time of his death (that tells you about the potential Palpy saw in him).
The fact that Maul hadn't reached his potential by the time he died at the age of 24 tells us about the potential Palpatine saw in him? Yeah, um, this makes sense.. 馃檮
Wow! Exposure (as you put it) is where we derive the necessary proof of a character's prowess. Your point is totally moot. No one is arguing Thrawn could beat Bastila (or even a random dark jedi) in a straight up duel. Quit with the straw man's already, it just shows your inability to argue over relevant points.
His training was designed to make him an instrument of destruction. Maul would make a poor spy, for one he's too conspicuous. Every mission Maul was given required that he used his skills as a warrior, from effectively disabling the most powerful criminal syndicate in the galaxy to hunting down Jedi.
How can you even argue over Maul's status as a warrior. Every training session we see him under has him practicing his combat skills, his choice of weapon further indicates his preferred approach (direct violence). In TPM Sidious fully expects him to handle two powerful Jedi at once in Qui Gon Jin and Obi Wan (who was virtually a Jedi Knight by then at 25). Maul was trained to be a warrior not a spy, try again.
He never demonstrated any fancy or over the top force technique but form TPM and the EU materials he's appeared in, he often used the force in a very effective manner.
In tpm especially he shows himself to be a crafty and subtle practitioner of the force, using it once to quickly disable a console, to give himself more room to retreat onto, in his duel with Obi and Jin and then taking advantage of Obi's eagerness by effectively taking him out of the fight with a well placed force push.
He also uses the dark side to withstand a direct blast of force lighting and kill his assailant while absorbing lighting with his body, in one EU comic.
So yes, I'd say that Maul without showing any fancy force techniques has demonstrated a great degree of resourcefulness with the force, coupled with his exceptional and unique combat skills (juyo with parts of teras kasi) and his unflinching devotion to the dark side makes him one the most powerful Sith in history.