Lmao, Noobaris. I've lost all sympathy for you; the delusion that you're "one of zeh best!" debaters around here has seriously rendered your ability to thing logically (though you never really had much of one to begin with) a nonfactor. This stupid little session of bias (KotoR + Bane = teh uber!) is both irrelevent, unsupported, and completely false. Bastilla Shan is not a talented Jedi. She couldn't take Mara Jade, who received thorough training from Palpatine (who would own Bastilla with a mere thought, I might add), or Lumiya - who managed to give Luke a hard time, let alone Depa Billaba or Mace (whom you believe that she could defeat). You couldn't make a good argument in any case, so stop kidding yourself.
First, Maul has been heralded as "one of the deadliest Sith apprentices" in history from a canon source. Just to reiterate here, your opinion (even if it weren't so pathetic) isn't canon. Your interpretations of what you deem to be "facts" aren't canon. The Visual Guide is. So, already, you're at a loss. Prove that it was of Bane's lineage, or shut the hell up.
Second, Sidious is the representation of the mystery, guile, subterfuge, and manipulation of the Sith. There is no reason to believe that Maul himself was, as Maul has never been proven to be a master political tactition. In fact, he was Sidious's enforcer, relying on his prowess with a lightsaber and combat skills to execute Sidious's agenda. So, once again, shut the hell up. Maul's training wasn't based on Sidious's methods, which means that he is no less of a warrior. Period.
Third, the comparisons with Dooku and Maul are completely different, as it has been proven that Maul had absolutely no intent of betraying or killing his master, due to Sidious indoctrinating him from childhood. Dooku was an extremely skilled political idealist and already a powerful Force user in his own right, which is why Sidious kept Dooku at arm's length. So, your point is irrelevent.
Right, because your weird and random ramblings have totally proven that. I mean despite the fact that he had barely mastered one form, and despite the fact that he was getting his ass kicked by padawan Obi-Wan, and despite the fact that he never once showed anything too spectacular with the force, he's still totally one of the most powerful sith lords.
Lmao. The Visual Guide confirms that he is one of the "deadliest" in history. This is irrefutable and indisputable. Simply because you don't want to believe that Maul is skilled doesn't make it so. In short, you're wrong. Again. 馃檪
Oh, and didn't you say that Obi-Wan got lucky? Blatant contradiction, Noobaris. Goes to show that you have to contradict yourself (basically owning your own argument) to even try to make a point. A failed attempt, at best.
In conclusion, we can debate this all day. Bastilla's weak in all aspects compared to - well... just about everyone marginally talented. As I said, her only noteworthy skill is Battle Meditation, and she's not even the best there. Sidious controlled the entire Imperial Fleet when he used Battle Meditation, could actively engage in conversations and even in a confrontation (not requiring the meditation state that Bastilla was forced to go into), and the sole reason the Empire lost at Endor was that they were reeling from Palpatine's death. Confirmed from the novelization, canon.
Jeez, Noobaris. Darth Sexy was right, you really do suck at debating.
Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
Do I really need to go back and start calling you LiarSnake again? Please, don't lie, that's never said.
Not denying he did, but you can't deny his selection was pretty limited.
Not really, you actually didn't add anything new to the debate, so your post would be what I call a 'waste of time post.' The story isn't over, b1tch.
"The present Sith Master, Darth Sidious is the diabolically brilliant mind behind the training of one of the most dangerous Sith apprentices in history: the deadly Darth Maul."
"Fiercely demanding of high standards, Sidious has been known to dismiss individuals simply for communiciating with too weak a signal."
-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 50.
"Darth Maul is one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order."
"Pushing his physical and Force-assisted abilities to the utmost, Darth Maul built and uses a double-bladed lightsaber as his primary weapon."
-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 51.
Now, I've taken your lack of reading ability and deductive reasoning skills into regard, and so I've bolded the important parts, just in case reading the complete quotes is too much of an effort for you, and before you go off on the deep end in regards to the second quote (in regards to its relevence), it simply goes to show that Sidious was "fiercely demanding of high standards" -- so I doubt he'd take Maul under his wing if he didn't detect a powerful presence in the Force about him. To propose otherwise is sheer stupidity, as it is a recurring theme in the entire saga (movies 1 - 6, in case you've slept through them) that the Emperor wants a powerful apprentice. So, why he would settle for someone sub-par - especially when he himself merely plots without execution - is both proposterous and stupid.
But, then again, it came from you, did it not, Noobaris?
In regards to some of your other points, such as Sidious "most likely holding him back", is also stupid. Maul was indoctrinated in the Sith arts at an extremely young age; he wasn't like Dooku or Anakin in that respect. It has been also proven - especially in Shadow Hunter - that Maul had no ambition outside of serving his master, even when confronted with the fact that, in order to ascend to masterhood himself, he would have to kill Sidious and take on his own apprentice. Maul wasn't an extremely independant political idealist like Dooku - nor was he a whiney, tempermental man with conflicted emotions like Anakin. So, that's where the theory that you concocted dies a tragic - yet completely painful - death.
I would also like the name and page of the source that details that Maul didn't know Force lightning, because I honestly don't recall it. It doesn't say anything of the sort in here [the Complete Visual Dictionary], that's for certain. In fact, if you'd like to get thoroughly technical, the Ultimate Visual Guide (not to be confused with the Complete Visual Dictionary) states that Maul exhibited "far superior" dark side knowledge than Mighella, who - incidentally - attacked Maul with Force lightning. Hmmm...
In conclusion, Maul is leagues - and leagues (!) - ahead of Revan's cadre of bodyguards. And, my friend [kidding, as we know you don't have any], he is much more skilled than Bastilla Shan.
Now don't even try to step to me on this, my logic is foolproof.
Try foolish, Noobaris.
And, I don't believe I've stepped to you, but - rather - on you.
Originally posted by Allanklesgood one, nebaris is getting owned again
Wow! Exposure (as you put it) is where we derive the necessary proof of a character's prowess. Your point is totally moot. No one is arguing Thrawn could beat Bastila (or even a random dark jedi) in a straight up duel. Quit with the straw man's already, it just shows your inability to argue over relevant points.His training was designed to make him an instrument of destruction. Maul would make a poor spy, for one he's too conspicuous. Every mission Maul was given required that he used his skills as a warrior, from effectively disabling the most powerful criminal syndicate in the galaxy to hunting down Jedi.
How can you even argue over Maul's status as a warrior. Every training session we see him under has him practicing his combat skills, his choice of weapon further indicates his preferred approach (direct violence). In TPM Sidious fully expects him to handle two powerful Jedi at once in Qui Gon Jin and Obi Wan (who was virtually a Jedi Knight by then at 25). Maul was trained to be a warrior not a spy, try again.
He never demonstrated any fancy or over the top force technique but form TPM and the EU materials he's appeared in, he often used the force in a very effective manner.
In tpm especially he shows himself to be a crafty and subtle practitioner of the force, using it once to quickly disable a console, to give himself more room to retreat onto, in his duel with Obi and Jin and then taking advantage of Obi's eagerness by effectively taking him out of the fight with a well placed force push.
He also uses the dark side to withstand a direct blast of force lighting and kill his assailant while absorbing lighting with his body, in one EU comic.
So yes, I'd say that Maul without showing any fancy force techniques has demonstrated a great degree of resourcefulness with the force, coupled with his exceptional and unique combat skills (juyo with parts of teras kasi) and his unflinching devotion to the dark side makes him one the most powerful Sith in history.
I agree with Gideon, mainly due to him being 100% correct. Also, Nebs, if you think Maul has no combat experience... Go pick up any book or comic with Maul in it. He has "Far superior darkside knowledge" than Mighella, and was trained to be "faster, stronger, and smarter than any foe could anticipate." He "mastered the lightsaber" along with practicing Teras Kasi and marksmanship. In the Maul comic alone, he left piles of bodies in his wake, with no effort. He survived for a month against a legion of assassin droids (who I doubt left him the luxury of sleep). Bastilla wouldn't survive Maul's average day of training. I could go one, but, seeing as Maul has a penis (presumably, I wouldn't know, I'm not into fan-fiction), he doesn't count on this thread. However, Depa, Mara Jade, and... Leia(!) do count. Depa has better bladework then Mace (I'm assuming that is only technical skill, it doesn't mean she could beat Mace in a blade-to-blade confrontation, seeing as Mace is still stronger, faster, and has an unrivaled Shatterpoint ability).
Bastilla is good, and really helpful with battle meditation, but not a top contender. And don't bring up Githany next, because, the same thing will happen. She is good, but, not on par with the likes of Depa.
JollyJim, based on what we do know, she's one of the best female force users ever, whether it be saber skills or force powers, or whatever. She's quite simply extremely underrated. The facts are:
1. She has an incredible connection to the force.
2. She is a saber prodigy.
3. She is a force prodigy.
4. She's had some pretty damn good training and experience to hone her potential.
5. She has performed feats that back all of that off.
Personally, I'd say the only other females that can match her are Nomi Sunrider (force and saber), Depa Billaba (saber) and Darth Traya (force). Maybe I was going a bit too far earlier, but I think it can certainly be agreed that she's highly underrated and is one of the magor female powerhouses. Personally I'd say she'd own someone of Maul's caliber.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
I agree with Gideon, mainly due to him being 100% correct.
LMAO, I love that statement. 馃槀
Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
JollyJim, based on what we do know, she's one of the best female force users ever, whether it be saber skills or force powers, or whatever. She's quite simply extremely underrated. The facts are:1. She has an incredible connection to the force.
2. She is a saber prodigy.
3. She is a force prodigy.
4. She's had some pretty damn good training and experience to hone her potential.
5. She has performed feats that back all of that off.Personally, I'd say the only other females that can match her are Nomi Sunrider (force and saber), Depa Billaba (saber) and Darth Traya (force). Maybe I was going a bit too far earlier, but I think it can certainly be agreed that she's highly underrated and is one of the magor female powerhouses. Personally I'd say she'd own someone of Maul's caliber.
1. Really? How do you know this?
2. How is she a saber prodigy? I saw nothing to make me believe she was at all.
3. She is good at battle meditation, thats about it.
4. Really? With her what...3 days of training with Malak? Which training are you talking about?
5. Which feats?
Seriously, do you have real proof of anything your saying, or are you just saying it?
Wow, clearly you were asleep for the 50 or so times I provided evidence for these claims.
1. Really? How do you know this?
She was known as having exceptional strength in the force (it's stated constantly throughout KotOR), and her connection was made even greater after having been boosted by the Star Forge.
2. How is she a saber prodigy? I saw nothing to make me believe she was at all.
She was stated as being so by the Masters at Dantooine, and a lot supports this, such as tooling a powerful dark jedi while still a padawan.
3. She is good at battle meditation, thats about it.
Common misconception, she's just plain good with the force, period. Off the top of my head, instantly stunning two powerful jedi with no apparent effort, or force persuading a Hutt are two examples off her ability with the force being exceptional.
4. Really? With her what...3 days of training with Malak? Which training are you talking about?
3 days? What the hell are you talking about? It's unknown how long her training was. What we do know, however, is that it was extensive enough for her to have been taught techniques such as force drain, aka the greatest of all sith techniques, and force lightning. And that's just her darkside training, she also has the same Jedi training any other Jedi would have. Point is, she has extensive training in both sides of the force, exceptional potential, and the experience to hone that potential.
5. Which feats?
Saber owning powerful dark jedi while still a padawan, instantly stunning two powerful Jedi with ease, having a willpower on the next level to force persuading a Hutt. How about playing KotOR?
Seriously, do you have real proof of anything your saying, or are you just saying it?
Oh my days, look, just because you haven't seen proof, or aren't willing to accept it, it doesn't mean I haven't provided proof.
Bastilla was labelled a force and lightsaber prodigy by the Masters on the Dantooine Council during KotOR. She was also noted as having exceptional innate talent with the force, so she ticks all of the boxes really: force strength, force prodigy and lightsaber prodigy. As a padawan, she was already considered a legend among the Jedi, a rising star among their ranks, and beyond most of the then current masters despite her lack of age/rank/experience. She was extremely prodigious. Her ability to form bonds (with Revan) also strongly speaks for her massive force strength, and this was even noted by the masters.
She was labelled a master swordsman, and the doublebladed lightsaber was her weapon of choice.
The experience she received on her journeys with Revan during KotOR 1 would had made her extremely powerful (Revan's party comes across literally hundreds of Dark Jedi during KotOR, so it can be assumed that Bastilla faced and defeated quite the number. That's just Dark Jedi, she would have also received loads of experience on all of the quests that go on through KotOR). She was already an extremely gifted and powerful Knight, so by halfway through KotOR (where she becomes a Knight) and by the end of KotOR 2 (where she's a Master), her improvement rate would have been huge (given the huge experience she received, her youth and her prodigy). The fact that she survived Sion and Nihilus' Shadow Wars also speaks volumes, and the speed in which she climbed the ranks is tremendous.
Not only did she receive training in the lightside of the force by the Jedi, but she was also given extensive training in the darkside by Malak. This can be seen when she knows of such techniques as force lightning and force drain. She was also powered up by The Star Forge to some degree (given that Malak was relying on her impressive Battle Meditation to defeat the Republic, he would have wanted to power her up as much as possible as long as there was enough power left for him), and as we know the power up would remain permanent, so her already extremely impressive strength in the force would have been further augmented by an imaginable tremendous increase.
Her lightsaber skills were clearly incredible, given that when she was a mere padawan, she displayed the ability to lightsaber tool a powerful Dark Jedi that had been accompanying Revan in mere seconds (it's in a cutscene at the start of KotOR). The Dark jedi was accompanying Darth Revan, so he was clearly one of the more powerful Dark Jedi, yet Bastilla, while still a padawan, completely owned him. That kind of tremendous ability while still a padawan makes you wonder how powerful she becomes by the end of KotOR two, with all her extra training and experience, and after being SF powered.
The fact that she was even given the responsibility to be part of the strike team that was responsible for capturing Revan speaks volumes. Now I know people will say she was only picked for her Battle Meditation, but that was to only ensure that the strike team would be able to board Revan's ship. She wouldn't have also subsequently boarded Revan's ship with the other jedi if they didn't believe she had the skills to be an asset. So the fact that the Jedi Order gave her so much responsibility (also seen when that let Bastilla in on Revan's true identity) despite her young age and lack of experience speaks volumes for how gifted a padawan she was.
Now when Malak blasted on Revan's ship just before the Jedi could face him, it knocked Revan unconscious and would have killed him if not for Bastilla. Not only did she survive and remain conscious after the ship had been hit (which had enough power to kill Revan), but she was also able to use the force to keep Revan alive.
Now all of the above is mostly not even mentioning her force ability, which is what she excels at. First off, her willpower was so incredible that she was able to force dominate a fricking Hutt. That alone puts her will beyond any movie character, given they all viewed such a feat as impossible, and thought of Hutts as being immune to mind tricks.
Another thing supporting her tremendous will (as well as force strength) is how incredible her battle meditation was. It was above that of people such as Nomi Sunrider (who could literally visualise something, and it would just happen: force her will onto reality), and so strong that she had the ability to turn the tide of wars instantaneously for a side that was seconds away from defeat and losing badly. her ability with the technique was so great that both the Jedi and the Sith (when she was one) literally solely relied on it for the war effort.
She's also displayed the force strength to instantly stun two very powerful jedi (Jolee Bindo and Juhani) pretty effortlessly. Now what people don't seem to get is overpowering any force user, no matter how you do it, always requires the same power, and that is the power to break through their force defence. In other words, if she chose to, she could have just as easily been able to instantly kill both of them on the spot. Now seeing as how people go on about Exar Kun force owning Odan-Urr like he did, and Traya owning those Jedi Masters like she did, you have to view what Bastilla did as even more incredible, given she did it instantly, and with no apparent effort.
(((copied and pasted from another thread, stuff on Vader was edited out)))
Bastilla's training of Malak pales in comparison to the two decades that Maul received under Sidious, Nebaris. It is ridiculous to assume that her training would even come close in terms of quality or time. Sidious was more powerful than Malak and had vastly superior knowledge, and nothing indicates that he "held Maul" back at all, since Maul himself had no ambition to kill Sidious.
He also was stated by a canon source (the Ultimate Visual Guide) to have "far superior dark side knowledge" than Mighella, who used Force lightning against Maul. So it is logical to assume that he did indeed know how to use and control Force lightning; he also exhibited an unnatural resistance to the Force as well, absorbing the Force lightning without immense pain or being wounded.
Furthermore, I've already proven that Revan's cadre of dark side adepts are no match for someone as Maul (and, realistically speaking, I find that both immature and ridiculous of you to claim). The term "powerful" is getting used far too much. Revan's bodyguards weren't powerful, nor would I use that to describe to Jolee.
He is also stronger, more agile, faster, and much better trained in the martial arts than she is. She doesn't stand a chance against him.
1. She has an incredible connection to the force.
Sure she does, but then again as I've said in the past, pretty much every single main character of any Star Wars novel/game/rpg/comic/movie/cartoon ect ect all are described as having "incredible connections to the force."
2. She is a saber prodigy.
No, she's not. You keep pulling this out of your ass with no quote what so ever, being as I've gone through KOTOR multiple times and pretty much fine toothed combed any dialog in relation to "power" I NEVER heard ANYONE in the game call Bastila a saber prodigy, I've never heard ANYONE in the game called a prodigy except for Revan at the very end.
So either your lying, or you've misinterpreted the dialog which ever the case you still wrong.
And don't go on about "OMG she pwned some random Dark Jedi!!!111!!" because first of all we cut into her fight with the DJ mid-duel, (for all we know she could have been fighting him up and down the ship) we have no real indication that he was powerful at all (and no, standing next to Revan doesn't count) and thus you have no real point.
3. She is a force prodigy.
Ah, no. Having one special ability doesn't make you a force prodigy, if thats the case then Mace Windu with his unparalleled Shatterpoint ability is a god of the force and and would rub his dirty shit stained purple underwear on Yoda and NJO Luke's face.
And again there's no quote from the masters on Dantooine that says she's a prodigy of anything, infact they mostly belittle Bastila as a headstrong, pompous little Padawan.
Oh, you keep trying to claim that the Star Forge's power had lasting effects on Bastila. No. What happens when someone is cut off from their power source? They, logically, lose that power with which they had. You trying to prove otherwise is absolutely idiotic.
As for the Hutts since they are apparently not immune to mind tricks, where does it say that the Hutt on Tantooine had anything on Jabaa.
And finally, stunning those "powerful" Jedi like Juhani and Jolee, first up Juhani who has beaten by Revan as a padawan...alone and guess what with the aid of the Dark Side she can put BASTILA in a stasis. Then there's Jolee who may have been hot stuff in his day but now he's nothing more then a washed up old man and were given no indicating that he could even come close to any of the era's tops.
4. She's had some pretty damn good training and experience to hone her potential.
Great, and that comes ANYWHERE near what Maul endured? No, it doesn't.
5. She has performed feats that back all of that off.
Not really, all of them are horribly over hyped by you. And you fail to mention:
1. She's been put in a stasis by Juhani
2. Overpowered by a few random thugs
3. She admits her own weakness to Revan on the Ebon Hawk
4. She has NUMEROUS major personality flaws which could easily be exploited in battle by anyone with a brain.
5. Her 1337 will was broken by Malak
6. Malak easily put her in a stasis
7. She was beaten by Revan what 5 times in a row?
Personally, I'd say the only other females that can match her are Nomi Sunrider (force and saber), Depa Billaba (saber) and Darth Traya (force). Maybe I was going a bit too far earlier, but I think it can certainly be agreed that she's highly underrated and is one of the magor female powerhouses. Personally I'd say she'd own someone of Maul's caliber.
Personally, I'd say kinda strong, yeah but a magor powerhouse? No.