Originally posted by darthgooberAs a basic rule of thumb, your "Body" comes with any abilties that don't require mental effort to control. So if it's automatic(like someone shooting Reed and his body stretching in automatic response) then it's "Body". If it DOES require mental control(like Reed stretching to wrap around an opponent) then it falls under the "Powers" category. Because of this, I've decided to alter a previous ruling I made via PM where I classified Healing Factors as a "Power". Under the new system it WILL fall under the "Body" attribute as long as it doesn't require any mental effort on the characters part.
2. Superspeed for the most part will be handled as a "Power". If you look at someone like Quicksilver, his speed isn't a result of a his having better physical attributes than a normal human, it's rather the result of his mutant power. However someone like Hulk who had greater than normal speed because of advanced musculature WOULD retain his speed because in that case it's an actual physical attribute.
So say if i pick Warpath/Velocity and use him/her as a body, i can still use there superspeed since its attributed to stronger physique..
How about say Bastion using him as a mind/tech chars, do i get his Nimrod upgrade..
I should really just pmed you but... ehh just an examples..
Originally posted by darthgoober
Ok folks sorry I've been away for a bit , but I'm back with SOME answers. But before I do there's something else that needs to be addressed. People seem to be getting hung up on the exact wording of the rules rather than the spirit behind them, and we should really try to avoid that. My system isn't perfect(neither was the old amalgam system though), and because of that problems will arise concerning the details of some characters. So sometimes we'll probably have to quirk the rules for certain characters just to get by. I understand that everyone wants to make the best character possible(and there's nothing wrong with that), but let's try to keep loopholing due to the "Letter of the Law" to a minimal. With that in mind...1. Reed Richards could really go either way and because of that guys like him will be a little tricky to deal with. If you take him as your "Body" character you WILL get his basic durability. But if your wanting to use his offensive capabilities as well your going to have to draft him into the "Powers" category.
As a basic rule of thumb, your "Body" comes with any abilties that don't require mental effort to control. So if it's automatic(like someone shooting Reed and his body stretching in automatic response) then it's "Body". If it DOES require mental control(like Reed stretching to wrap around an opponent) then it falls under the "Powers" category. Because of this, I've decided to alter a previous ruling I made via PM where I classified Healing Factors as a "Power". Under the new system it WILL fall under the "Body" attribute as long as it doesn't require any mental effort on the characters part.
2. Superspeed for the most part will be handled as a "Power". If you look at someone like Quicksilver, his speed isn't a result of a his having better physical attributes than a normal human, it's rather the result of his mutant power. However someone like Hulk who had greater than normal speed because of advanced musculature WOULD retain his speed because in that case it's an actual physical attribute.
3. Things like Colossus's abilities will STILL fall under the "Body" category, even though he actually has to consciously change into his armored form.
I'm slightly confused as to why elastic bodies would be considered a "power" and yet Colossus's abilities would not? In all honesty I would have thought the reverse was going to apply 😬 Seeing as the body is just extra stretchy, and they do not have to actually turn their power "on" you know? Just my two cents.
Point number 2 seems fine 🙂
The rule changes seem good to me. And Colossus' body doesn't actively do anything that would be a "power". After activation, it's basically just strength/durability. The offensive capabilities of someone like Reed or maybe even Plastic Man with their "body" obviously go well beyond simple strength.
Kudos to goober though. I've had some input on a few of the rules, but most has been him and I think it's being handled well. An interesting format, but it seems like it will work well.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
The rule changes seem good to me. And Colossus' body doesn't actively do anything that would be a "power". After activation, it's basically just strength/durability.
According to Darthgoober's new rule, if you choose Colossus' body, really all you get is his durability as he doesn't have to do anything. But his strength would be considered a POWER since he would have to do something to exhibit his strength.
At least that's what I got from his Reed example. The bullets stretching his body is okay, but if he stretches his body then it's considered a power.
Originally posted by masterbruce
According to Darthgoober's new rule, if you choose Colossus' body, really all you get is his durability as he doesn't have to do anything. But his strength would be considered a POWER since he would have to do something to exhibit his strength.At least that's what I got from his Reed example. The bullets stretching his body is okay, but if he stretches his body then it's considered a power.
Yeah, it's tricky with Reed because his power is his body. But your example there makes sense.
But I think you'd agree that saying that somone's strength is a "power" and not part of their body is taking a bit too far.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
But I think you'd agree that saying that somone's strength is a "power" and not part of their body is taking a bit too far.
I do kinda...but I also feel that saying someone's stretchability (which is even more obvious an attribute of the body) is a "power" is even more wrong.
I mean, we know Spiderman is flexible as hell, whereas Thing probably is less flexible, both are a result of their bodies. Reed just takes flexibility to the next level, but it is obviously the fact that his body has the quality of stretching, and not that he has some magical ability to stretch an otherwise normal human body...so I really can't accept his stretchability being a "power" rather than just an aspect of his body.
I'm mainly going for consistency. If we remove Reed's ability to consciously stretch his body, then we have to remove Colossus' ability to consciously apply his strength.
Originally posted by masterbruce
I do kinda...but I also feel that saying someone's stretchability (which is even more obvious an attribute of the body) is a "power" is even more wrong.I mean, we know Spiderman is flexible as hell, whereas Thing probably is less flexible, both are a result of their bodies. Reed just takes flexibility to the next level, but it is obviously the fact that his body has the quality of stretching, and not that he has some magical ability to stretch an otherwise normal human body...so I really can't accept his stretchability being a "power" rather than just an aspect of his body.
I'm mainly going for consistency. If we remove Reed's ability to consciously stretch his body, then we have to remove Colossus' ability to consciously apply his strength.
Actually, you'd have to remove everyone's ability to consciously use strength....because the line we draw is arbitrary.
And that's essentially why I'm backing goober here. In every tourney, eventually the host has to draw a "line" on a specific ability that is essentially arbitrary. But he has his reasons...it's not just to spite those considering stretch-types. And if we take it to the extreme conclusion, you have characters unable to use "strength" in any form. And at the other extreme, you'd be allowing Iceman, HydroMan, and others who can't rightly be killed (heck, Reed and Plastic Man are probably over whatever durability caps were set in the first place).
This also raises another issue that may very well come up:
Who is below and who is above Iron Man level.
There can be arguments made that Reed, Iceman, and other controversial characters can be considered by some to be below and others to be above.
I mean, what are the criteria for judging whether someone is Iron Man level? If a character can defeat Iron Man, is he above Iron Man level?
questions, questions...
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Actually, you'd have to remove everyone's ability to consciously use strength....because the line we draw is arbitrary.
pretty much, and that would obviously not work.
I don't have a problem with banning Reed's stretchability, just the reason for doing so. I don't think you can say you're banning it because it's a "power", because it's really just an attribute of the body, like STRENGTH.
BUT I do think you can ban it because it surpasses the Iron Man limit, however you guys decide to judge that.
Originally posted by masterbruce
This also raises another issue that may very well come up:Who is below and who is above Iron Man level.
There can be arguments made that Reed, Iceman, and other controversial characters can be considered by some to be below and others to be above.
I mean, what are the criteria for judging whether someone is Iron Man level? If a character can defeat Iron Man, is he above Iron Man level?
questions, questions...
Believe me, it'll come up. Often.
As for the stretch-people, while we're on them, I say Plastic Man is > IM. Reed, probably ok. But that's me.
Originally posted by masterbruceI think you missing the fundmental aspect Goober is getting at.
pretty much, and that would obviously not work.I don't have a problem with banning Reed's stretchability, just the reason for doing so. I don't think you can say you're banning it because it's a "power", because it's really just an attribute of the body, like STRENGTH.
BUT I do think you can ban it because it surpasses the Iron Man limit, however you guys decide to judge that.
What he is saying is that Reed normally operates in a humanoid manner. Meaning he normally appears as a human. He has to use his mind to alter his body beyond the normal human appearance.
Basically in order for Reed to use his power he has to think about changing his body. Colossus simply has to make a normal human move to do so. Colossus for example doesn't have to think I'm using Super strength he simply does by punching or kicking or lifting. Reed can't do that he has to mentally control his power.
See the difference.