Questions about Karma

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It is far more complicated then that. I believe nothing happens by chance; everything is the product of cause and effect. Karma is the interaction between your Karma and all other karma. Did you know that inanimate objects have Karma too?

Now, my responce is more like: Things don't happen by chance, that is true, but it's not as simple as Karma. Nothing is that simple, but by saying it's not a simple rule, doesn't mean it's by chance. It's through lots of complex rules that may look like chance but aren't.

Eg. Lightening looks like it strikes the Earth at random, but it doesn't, it strikes the Earth passing through the most electronically active particles first, making the quickest journey.

And the thing about Karma, is that it's too simple to be possible. People do what are called bad things, but are just ways of obtaining power, however, extra power is uncontrollable, therefore those with extra power lose it, and thus, something what people called bad happens to them.

Hard for me to explain, better you hear it from Alliance or someone of similar intelligence and maturity.

Originally posted by lord xyz
JIA responce: You say you don't believe in chance, yet you thoroughly defend evolution as science? Haha.

Now, my responce is more like: Things don't happen by chance, that is true, but it's not as simple as Karma. Nothing is that simple, but by saying it's not a simple rule, doesn't mean it's by chance. It's through lots of complex rules that may look like chance but aren't.

Eg. Lightening looks like it strikes the Earth at random, but it doesn't, it strikes the Earth passing through the most electronically active particles first, making the quickest journey.

And the thing about Karma, is that it's too simple to be possible. People do what are called bad things, but are just ways of obtaining power, however, extra power is uncontrollable, therefore those with extra power lose it, and thus, something what people called bad happens to them.

Hard for me to explain, better you hear it from Alliance or someone of similar intelligence and maturity.

Karma is NOT simple at all.

If a meteor hits the Earth, that is most likely the result of chance, and we are in no way responsible for such a thing.

I am not trying to anger or challenge you Shaky, but despite my trust and respect in Buddhism, I am a strong beleiver that Nature is more powerful than Mankind.

We can certainly influence and affect nature, but we are not more powerful than nature, and many aspects of nature are not only beyond our control, but are in no way our responsibility.

Buddha even stated himself that one can only have true control over his or her self..not over anyone or anything else.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
If a meteor hits the Earth, that is most likely the result of chance, and we are in no way responsible for such a thing.

I am not trying to anger or challenge you Shaky, but despite my trust and respect in Buddhism, I am a strong beleiver that Nature is more powerful than Mankind.

We can certainly influence and affect nature, but we are not more powerful than nature, and many aspects of nature are not only beyond our control, but are in no way our responsibility.

Buddha even stated himself that one can only have true control over his or her self..not over anyone or anything else.

You still have a Christian understanding of Karma, no offence.

If a meteor hits the Earth, it does not do that by chance. It hits the Earth because the Earth intersected it's path (the Earth's karma). The reason the meteor was on that path was because of all the gravity that influenced it, or in other words, it's karma.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You still have a Christian understanding of Karma, no offence.

I am not talking about Karma...I am commenting on your point about chance vs. cause and effect.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
If a meteor hits the Earth, it does not do that by chance.

Yes it does

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It hits the Earth because the Earth intersected it's path (the Earth's karma).

That's still chance....If i cross the street, and I get hit by a car, that happened by chance. It can happen at any time (hopefully i wont ever happen, but u get the point 😆 )

Yes, I decided to cross the street, and the street is the natural path for a car, but me getting hit is not only cause and effect..it is also chance. There was a chance it could have happened, and a chance it could not have happened, but this time the chance occurred.

Why do you separate chance from cause and effect ? I beleive chance is a part of cause and effect....

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The reason the meteor was on that path was because of all the gravity that influenced it, or in other words, it's karma.

I think you and I are using different defintions of the word chance.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
I am not talking about Karma...I am commenting on your point about chance vs. cause and effect.

Cause and effect is the water and Karma is the river.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
That's still chance....If i cross the street, and I get hit by a car, that happened by chance. It can happen at any time (hopefully i wont ever happen, but u get the point 😆 )

Yes, I decided to cross the street, and the street is the natural path for a car, but me getting hit is not only cause and effect..it is also chance. There was a chance it could have happened, and a chance it could not have happened, but this time the chance occurred.

A car does not drive down the street by chance. Do cars appear and disappear? If they did, that would be chance.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Why do you separate chance from cause and effect ? I beleive chance is a part of cause and effect....

Chance dose not exist, it is just a word to express the fact that we do not know what the outcome is. All actions in the universe are driven by cause and effect. If there is no cause, there will be no effect.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
I think you and I are using different defintions of the word chance.

Perhaps…

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Cause and effect is the water and Karma is the river.

Okay

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
A car does not drive down the street by chance. Do cars appear and disappear? If they did, that would be chance.

😆

No, they do not appear and disappear, but the moment that a car heading in one journey and a person heading in another journey meet and collide is what I personally define as chance.

Cause and Effect could have easily been that these two forces never met....but they did...that is chance.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Chance dose not exist, it is just a word to express the fact that we do not know what the outcome is.

That is one definition, but that's not what I am using.

I fill out a Lottery Ticket...the balls form into a formation in the machine which matches the numbers I guessed. That is cause and effect, but it was also chance. They cause was the SAME, but the effect could have been one out of a hundred others.....

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
All actions in the universe are driven by cause and effect. If there is no cause, there will be no effect.

Cause and Effect are not the only the manifestations of sentient action. Non-Living objects and forces become causes and create effects. A sentient being like a human, animal, or alien is capable of making decisions which are the causes and consequences which are the effects.

A nebula births stars....that is cause and effect. Yet, there is no behind the scenes force directing this action. It just happens. That can easily be defined as chance.

The Birth of the Universe could be mere chance. That does not rule out Cause and Effect.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Perhaps…

I do not define chance as randonmess or lack of order. I define chance as the likeliness or something happening or not happening due to the factors behind it.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Okay

😆

No, they do not appear and disappear, but the moment that a car heading in one journey and a person heading in another journey meet and collide is what I personally define as chance.

Cause and Effect could have easily been that these two forces never met....but they did...that is chance.

That is one definition, but that's not what I am using.

I fill out a Lottery Ticket...the balls form into a formation in the machine which matches the numbers I guessed. That is cause and effect, but it was also chance. They cause was the SAME, but the effect could have been one out of a hundred others.....

Cause and Effect are not the only the manifestations of sentient action. Non-Living objects and forces become causes and create effects. A sentient being like a human, animal, or alien is capable of making decisions which are the causes and consequences which are the effects.

A nebula births stars....that is cause and effect. Yet, there is no behind the scenes force directing this action. It just happens. That can easily be defined as chance.

The Birth of the Universe could be mere chance. That does not rule out Cause and Effect.

I do not define chance as randonmess or lack of order. I define chance as the likeliness or something happening or not happening due to the factors behind it.

Under your definition, chance would be Karma, kind of.

To me, there is no such thing as chance because there is no effect that does not have a cause. Am I wrong? Can you give me an effect that does not have a cause?

Just because something is to complex to predict, does not mean that it does not have karma.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Under your definition, chance would be Karma, kind of.

That's what I was referring too

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
To me, there is no such thing as chance because there is no effect that does not have a cause. Am I wrong? Can you give me an effect that does not have a cause?

But one cause can have many different effects...life is not black or white where one cause will only have one possible effect....the possibilities that spring from one single action are endless.

I beleive Chance is entirely dependent on the numerous factors that create it....a single effect can have numerous causes...a single cause can have numerous effects...

Chance is the probability that a certain outcome will or will not occur based on the factors involved...no let me rephrase that...Chance is the possibility of what effect will arise from a cause.

As for your other question....the Birth of the Universe may or may not have a cause...or point....If the Big Bang and Big Crunch theory is correct, then it is likely that the Universe's cycle of birth and rebirth is infinite, like a circle, and therefore there is no initial cause and no final effect. Just a series of causes and effects.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Just because something is to complex to predict, does not mean that it does not have karma.

I never said that....

But that does suggest that all bad things happen for a reason....

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
That's what I was referring too

Yes, and it can lead you to wrong conclusions.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
But one cause can have many different effects...life is not black or white where one cause will only have one possible effect....the possibilities that spring from one single action are endless.

I never said that it had to be a one for one.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
I beleive Chance is entirely dependent on the numerous factors that create it....a single effect can have numerous causes...a single cause can have numerous effects...

Chance is the probability that a certain outcome will or will not occur based on the factors involved...no let me rephrase that...Chance is the possibility of what effect will arise from a cause.

Hypothetically speaking, if you knew all things, would chance exist?

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
As for your other question....the Birth of the Universe may or may not have a cause...or point....If the Big Bang and Big Crunch theory is correct, then it is likely that the Universe's cycle of birth and rebirth is infinite, like a circle, and therefore there is no initial cause and no final effect. Just a series of causes and effects.

And Karma is how this cause and effect interacts to create causality.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
I never said that....

No, that was me saying that…

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
But that does suggest that all bad things happen for a reason....

And all good things, but we don’t know what that reason is.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Yes, and it can lead you to wrong conclusions.

What do you mean ?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I never said that it had to be a one for one.

But the possibility of a certain effect occuring is what I label chance. A car crosses a path...a man crosses a path. They may or may not collide. Those are two possible effects, with the same cause.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Hypothetically speaking, if you knew all things, would chance exist?

Hypothetically speaking, No. Not to me. But since in reality we cannot know all things, and the future does not exist yet, chance is present.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
And Karma is how this cause and effect interacts to create causality.

I know.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
And all good things, but we don’t know what that reason is.

I am not saying that bad and good things happen without cause. I am saying that bad and good things do not happen because someone deserves or doesn't deserve them. They just happen, often without justification.

^ I don't believe in chance. Nothing ever happens by chance.

We've established that already

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
We've established that already

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The rest of what you are saying is not convincing to me. You seem to have some idea that Karma has to do with fairness and that is why you don't believe in it. I wouldn't believe in that either, fortunately, Karma has nothing to do with fairness.

I never said Karma has anything to do with fairness, and I never said I don't beleive in it...where do you get this from ?

I simply beleive that chance is a part of cause and effect, I do not beleive it is unrelated.

Ex:

Cause: I ask a guy out... I ask him upfront, nicely, and clearly....

Effect 1: He smiles and says yes

Effect 2: He smirks and says no

Effect 3: He is speechless, i made him too nervous

Effect 4: He says, "yeah whatever"

Effect 5: He runs away

The same cause will not have the same effect....in all situations. Chance is the uncertainty of what effect will occur. Chance is not independent or separate of or from circumstances and involved factors.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
I never said Karma has anything to do with fairness, and I never said I don't beleive in it...where do you get this from ?

I simply beleive that chance is a part of cause and effect, I do not beleive it is unrelated.

Ex:

Cause: I ask a guy out... I ask him upfront, nicely, and clearly....

Effect 1: He smiles and says yes

Effect 2: He smirks and says no

Effect 3: He is speechless, i made him too nervous

Effect 4: He says, "yeah whatever"

Effect 5: He runs away

The same cause will not have the same effect....in all situations. Chance is the uncertainty of what effect will occur. Chance is not independent or separate of or from circumstances and involved factors.

Chance is a guessing game, but once the effect takes place, there is no more guessing. However, the effect that did not take place, would have never taken place.

Cause and effect are simultaneous, however, the effect awaits for the correct time to manifest its self. There is no chance.

I thought you didn't beleive in time....

i think were getting bogged down by our definition of chance. simply its a question of perspective, if u look at the localised phenomenon of an asteriod hitting the earth. it was random and by chance since u cant know of all the asteroids paths and at best can say that there was a so n so perccent chance that the earth cud be hit n that happened. this is when ur looking at a localised closed system and dont know or cant predict events outside it with accuracy, just their rate of average occurance. thats why u call it random. on the other hand if were not confined to a localised area of space and can accurately see and predict the paths of all meteors and earth{their karma i believe} then we would know the FATE of the earth and any collisions that would happen{cause and affect principle, only comes into play if we know the history of sumthin precisely and their present} and all randomness would be gone as it was supposed to happen. its strictly a matter of perspective, hollistic or localised. if u see things in their entirety, then theres no CHANCE, if you look at individual things, then everything is chance. and shaky, what parallels can we draw between KARMA and FATE? or destiny.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
i think were getting bogged down by our definition of chance. simply its a question of perspective, if u look at the localised phenomenon of an asteriod hitting the earth. it was random and by chance since u cant know of all the asteroids paths and at best can say that there was a so n so perccent chance that the earth cud be hit n that happened. this is when ur looking at a localised closed system and dont know or cant predict events outside it with accuracy, just their rate of average occurance. thats why u call it random. on the other hand if were not confined to a localised area of space and can accurately see and predict the paths of all meteors and earth{their karma i believe} then we would know the FATE of the earth and any collisions that would happen{cause and affect principle, only comes into play if we know the history of sumthin precisely and their present} and all randomness would be gone as it was supposed to happen. its strictly a matter of perspective, hollistic or localised. if u see things in their entirety, then theres no CHANCE, if you look at individual things, then everything is chance. and shaky, what parallels can we draw between KARMA and FATE? or destiny.

You are correct except for the idea that we have to know anything. Things have their own karma, and knowing is not required for the universe to work. We are part of the universe and therefore part of the universes karma.

I thought you didn't beleive in Time....