^ That also supports Sidious holding back. Why not just use the force, his forte, if he was going all out?
And about the 'overpowering' issue, since when can't you overpower someone who's holding back? Overpowering is simply overcoming through superior force, so how does that prove that Sidious wasn't holding back?
1 more thing, I really don't see where all this Mace being better against darksiders than Yoda bs is coming from. Simply because of his Shatterpoint talent, and Vaapad? People overrate those abilities way too much, and what you're saying (that Mace > Yoda in relation to darksiders) heavily contradicts the RotS novelisation, when Yoda is labelled as the most dangerous foe that the darkside has ever known. Now if Mace really were the better of the two in relation to darksiders, then wouldn't Mace be labelled as such, and not Yoda? That quote alone proves all of these biased views about Shatterpoint and Vaapad wrong. They're not that impressive, and they don't make that great a difference. Yoda is solidly above Mace, against lightsiders or darksiders. Get over it guys.
Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
1 more thing, I really don't see where all this Mace being better against darksiders than Yoda bs is coming from. Simply because of his Shatterpoint talent, and Vaapad? People overrate those abilities way too much, and what you're saying (that Mace > Yoda in relation to darksiders) heavily contradicts the RotS novelisation, when Yoda is labelled as the most dangerous foe that the darkside has ever known. Now if Mace really were the better of the two in relation to darksiders, then wouldn't Mace be labelled as such, and not Yoda? That quote alone proves all of these biased views about Shatterpoint and Vaapad wrong. They're not that impressive, and they don't make that great a difference. Yoda is solidly above Mace, against lightsiders or darksiders. Get over it guys. [/B]
Good god shut up Noobaris. You're already a dumb human being but you look even dumber by arguing with facts. Mace IS technically better against darksiders because of his shatterpoint and Vaapad, which is perfect for darkside users, but Yoda is still more powerful than him. Nobody is overrating those abilities, but I love how you keep using the term "overrate" when your argument gets trumped time and time again. And no, nothing contradicts the novelization and if there WAS anything that did, it would be the movie which would be canon either way. Get over the fact that you are the worst debater on this forum and you still have yet to win an argument.
Originally posted by kamikz
If Sidious uses the force like he did against Yoda, I believe Mace would be cooked anyway.
If you're referring to the Force Lightning that Sidious used to knock away Yoda's lightsaber, he also used it against Mace when Mace and knocked him to the floor. I think that the reason why Mace's lightsaber wasn't knocked away was because he was physically stronger than Yoda was.
Anyway, I do think that Mace beat Palpatine in a fair fight. There was far too much at risk for the Sith for Palpatine to have taken the chance that Anakin, being unpredictable as it was, would have taken his side over the Jedi. On the matter of Sidious defeating Yoda, Sidious won because he gained the higher ground (like Obi-Wan) and the Clones were coming to his aid. Yoda knew he couldn't hold off Sidious in a Force battle and fight off a bunch of Clones at the same time.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Good god shut up Noobaris. You're already a dumb human being but you look even dumber by arguing with facts. Mace IS technically better against darksiders because of his shatterpoint and Vaapad, which is perfect for darkside users, but Yoda is still more powerful than him. Nobody is overrating those abilities, but I love how you keep using the term "overrate" when your argument gets trumped time and time again. And no, nothing contradicts the novelization and if there WAS anything that did, it would be the movie which would be canon either way. Get over the fact that you are the worst debater on this forum and you still have yet to win an argument.
Like you Sexy, I don't usually argue against people who aren't intelligent or attractive, however I'll make this an exception.
Now before I begin, I take it that we agree on Yoda being more powerful than Yoda, yes? Now what you need to comprehend is that it is your opinion that Mace's Shatterpoint talent and Vaapad makes him more powerful than Yoda against darksiders. Opinions don't override facts, and it's a fact that Yoda was 'the most powerful foe the darkness had ever faced' (granted it was from Yoda's PoV, but in this case, it can be accepted as fact, as he understands Shatterpoint and Vaapad more than anyone on this forum, and fully comprehends the advantages it gives against the darkside). Yoda was quite clearly universally the most powerful out of the two, against light or darksiders. That little line in the RotS novelisation makes this perfectly clear. Argue against it, or quit while you're behind.
Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
Like you Sexy, I don't usually argue against people who aren't intelligent or attractive, however I'll make this an exception.
Now before I begin, I take it that we agree on Yoda being more powerful than Yoda, yes? Now what you need to comprehend is that it is your opinion that Mace's Shatterpoint talent and Vaapad makes him more powerful than Yoda against darksiders. Opinions don't override facts, and it's a fact that Yoda was 'the most powerful foe the darkness had ever faced' (granted it was from Yoda's PoV, but in this case, it can be accepted as fact, as he understands Shatterpoint and Vaapad more than anyone on this forum, and fully comprehends the advantages it gives against the darkside). Yoda was quite clearly universally the most powerful out of the two, against light or darksiders. That little line in the RotS novelisation makes this perfectly clear. Argue against it, or quit while you're behind. [/B]
Yoda is more powerful but Mace's skills are more useful against the darkside. It's not my opinion that Mace is more useful, its fact, something you clearly have no concept of. Yoda is more powerful of the two but again, Mace is more useful against the darkside, which is why he beat Sidious and Yoda didn't. Keep arguing against facts, you apparently love getting wtfpwned.
Nebaris, I'm not going to argue with you over your assertion that Mace's Vaapad and Shatterpoint are overrated. They are highly effective skills and weapons against dark side-based opponents (or any opponent), and that is concrete.
No one said that Mace was "more powerful" than Yoda in any aspect, and if they did, they're dead wrong. I simply proposed that he is more effective - and he is. He floored Sidious on Coruscant and had Dooku on the run on Boz Pity. The same Dooku who knowingly threw himself into a fight with Yoda, twice. I'm not suggesting - nor am I implying - that Mace is stronger than Yoda in Force skills or in lightsaber skills. But the fact remains that he has proven himself to be more effective than Yoda in regards to dark side opponents. It is because, as the RotS novelization has elaborated upon, Mace (when immersed in Vaapad) can draw upon the power of the dark side and turn it to his advantage. You would have to be leagues above him in the Force or lightsaber skills to overcome him, and while Sidious is certainly the more capable Force user, he isn't that much better than Mace that he could simply blow him away. You'd pretty much need to be a DE Sidious-level Sith Lord, likely, to crush someone of Mace's calibre.
Anyway, I do think that Mace beat Palpatine in a fair fight. There was far too much at risk for the Sith for Palpatine to have taken the chance that Anakin, being unpredictable as it was, would have taken his side over the Jedi.
First, Nebaris would have a convincing argument if not for Lucas's own words ("Mace overpowered Sidious" in the RotS commentary). The coincidences and circumstances were simply too unusual for it. Sidious could annihilate three of the Order's most capable swordsmen (and one of them, Sidious killed while attacking Mace!) but suddenly loses to Mace?
a.) There's reason to believe that Palpatine communicated with Anakin via the Force while Anakin was in the Council chambers. His voice can be overheard saying: "Without me, all hope of saving her is lost". This isn't an excerpt of their earlier conversation, it's an entirely new line.
b.) We know Sidious's goal was to convert Anakin. He'd been testing him and preparing him for years.
c.) The timing of Anakin's arrival and Sidious's defeat is too suspicious.
But, I will not defy Lucas, nor do I believe anyone else should. Lucas said Mace overpowered Sidious, so I believe it.
On the matter of Sidious defeating Yoda, Sidious won because he gained the higher ground (like Obi-Wan) and the Clones were coming to his aid. Yoda knew he couldn't hold off Sidious in a Force battle and fight off a bunch of Clones at the same time.
a.) Name a source (and give me specifics) that detail that Clonetroopers were coming.
b.) Sidious and Yoda fought each other to a standstill. During their lightsaber duel, they both exchanged the offensive and defensive (Sidious pushed Yoda back off of the Chancellor's position on the podium, as well).
Both of them were obvious equals and the fight ended in a stalemate. Sidious was just lucky that he didn't get his brains dashed out on the Senate floor.
Can i say one thing? ok.....Here is how i see it. In a Nut Shell Sidious had a style that mace could fight Yoda had a style that Mace was weak aginst Sidious had a style that Yoda was weak aginst and mace was strong aginst...Some Jedi have more experience and more ability to cope with some different styles that some jedi cannot. FOR EXAMPLE
Example 1 : Anakin Beating Dooku in a Saber duel when OBI-WAN could not Note. Obi-Wan Beat anakin on Mustafar.
Example 2 : Qui-Gon-Jinn was bested by Darth Maul when Obi Wan could beat Maul Note. Qui-Gon-Jinn was more powerful at the time.
Example 3 : Mace Windu Defeating Palpatine when Yoda could not Note : Yoda was more powerful and expericened
THERE YOU GO 😄
I just gotta question the "overpowered" quote a bit. I mean, sure, Lucas said he overpowered Sidious, but that doesn't mean that Sidious must have been fighting his best. I mean, to overpower a faking Sidious = Overpower a full out going Sidious. If we have proof to support Sidious was faking it, couldn't it be used?