Originally posted by Nellinator
The list you posted is crap and unsubstantiated because it has no substance.Not omniscient, just not stupid.
Focus on the pure fallacies part. And as FeceMan mentioned, it is can be reasonably deduced that you copied and pasted a lot of it. Also, I'm you didn't do it yourself as spelling errors are out of character.
You could look at FeceMan's link, or you could fish around and look at the debunking websites that are nearly as common as the crapshooting websites, or better yet, use real scholarly articles from journals that can be considered credible, not the vomit that you have apparently used.
You contradict yourself if you admit to misspelling earlier and then saying that you understand the principles of spelling and grammar. Either you copied and pasted as I suspect, or you actually don't understand spelling. My error was minor and my errors are few in the past. Correcting my grammar is useless and will undoubtedly leave you unsatisfied.
Both Hanukkah and Chanukah are acceptable spellings of the same word. The point is that just because a word is spelled differently than the way that is familiar to you, it does not follow from this that it is mispelled.
Moreover, the link that Feceman provided does not refute anything. It acknowledges the similarities between Jesus and other mythological characters, but asserts that Jesus is real and the others are myths.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Both Hanukkah and Chanukah are acceptable spellings of the same word. The point is that just because a word is spelled differently than the way that is familiar to you, it does not follow from this that it is mispelled.Moreover, the link that Feceman provided does not refute anything. It acknowledges the similarities between Jesus and other mythological characters, but asserts that Jesus is real and the others are myths.
Originally posted by Strangelove
a) because there's no way of knowing that it's really the truth.
b) because some of the 'truths' in the Bible are rather undesirable.
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveYou both are people who can makes valid points on volatile subjects without resorting to flaming, mocking, accusations and name calling.
I think that you hit the nail on the head in part b of your reply. But I would take it a step further and propound that many (not some) of the truths revealed in Scripture are very (not rather) undesirable because the Bible exposes us for who we truly are. The Bible tells us (without making any apologies, softsoaking the situation, or mitigating it) that we are all unrighteous, that we are sinners, that all of our righteousness (i.e. good works) are like filthy rags, that we are spiritually dead, that we are Hell-bound, and that we need Jesus Christ in order to be saved from all of these realities.
Originally posted by FeceMan
I thought so, too. But, back to the topic at hand: the list fails.
The list does exactly what it is intended to do; note the similarities between Jesus and other mythological characters. Even the link you provided as a refutation acknowledges these similarities, despite dissmissing them. I would not characterize that as a failure.
http://realmagick.com/articles/51/1551.html
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
The list does exactly what it is intended to do; note the similarities between Jesus and other mythological characters. Even the link you provided as a refutation acknowledges these similarities, despite dissmissing them. I would not characterize that as a failure.
Originally posted by FeceMan
http://realmagick.com/articles/51/1551.html
I am sure one can find many articles with much of the same information.
Originally posted by FeceMan
Your list fails because Nellinator has already pointed out the flaws with it.
Questioning my intelligence, and insulting me does equate to pointing out the flaws with my argument.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I am sure one can find many articles with much of the same information.Questioning my intelligence, and insulting me does equate to pointing out the flaws with my argument.
I never questioned your intelligence, and I didn't insult you. I said that the list fails because it is factually erroneous. Therefore, the argument you provided is flawed, as it rests on that list.
And, for your information, a total of three websites show up when putting terms from the list into Google. I don't care if you copied it, but it's pretty clear that you did.
Originally posted by FeceMan
I never questioned your intelligence, and I didn't insult you. I said that the list fails because it is factually erroneous. Therefore, the argument you provided is flawed, as it rests on that list.
I did not state that you did; I stated that Nellinator did.
The list notes the similarities between Jesus and other mythological characters. If it is factually erroneous, then the link you provided as a refutation would not acknowledge these similarities.
Originally posted by FeceMan
And, for your information, a total of three websites show up when putting terms from the list into Google. I don't care if you copied it, but it's pretty clear that you did.
Interestingly, when I searched some of the terms, I got 206 results.
Well, you see, the link that FeceMan gave does in fact refute most of it. The only similarities between most of the people you mentioned and Jesus would be that they were miracle workers either divine or divinely inspired. However, since this is relatively insignificant to who Jesus was it is negligible. Basically, the list shows nothing. No pagan influences, nothing at all really. Any list of that nature with Mohammed on it is immediately uncredible considering Mohammed came 600 years after Jesus. Not to mention that he wasn't crucified, or born of a virgin, nor did miracles. I could do a post like the one I did about Horus for almost all of them (some I am too unfamiliar with), but I think you understand how that will go. These are recycled arguments, that if they had validity would shake the faith of someone who did proper research. However, those who do proper research find these lists amusing and annoying at the same time because they are hilarious in their invention, but annoying in their frequency.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlivehttp://www.killermovies.com/forums/448647_1-penn-teller-take-on-the-bible
I believe the entire Bible.Why Jesus? No man ever spoke like Jesus or did the things that Jesus has done. No person has ever died for my sins. No person has ever been beaten to the edge of death for me like Jesus. No person has ever been humiliated in front of multitudes of people for me like Jesus. No person has ever left Heaven's glory and opulence for me like Jesus. No person has ever lived a life of power and love, compassion and wisdom, sinlessness and holiness, selflessness and sacrifice like Jesus. No person who has ever claimed to be God in the flesh ever backed it up with a lifestyle that was consistent with what He claims like Jesus. The Lord Jesus--Who is called the Christ (i.e. Anointed One)--forgave sins, performed miracles, walked on water, spoke to a storm and wind that obeyed Him, raised the dead numerous times, showed compassion for people that were despised in the eyes of other people, associated with sinners that the religious leaders of His day wouldn't dare come into proximity with, respected His parents, loved people, always did those things that pleased His Heavenly Father, gave His life a ransom for the whole world, and paid for the sins of every person who has ever lived (even those have not been born yet). This Jesus Whom the Bible states this about:
[B]John 21:25
[/B]
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.
Originally posted by Nellinator
Here's a debunking of some commonly held misconceptions about Horus.First thing first, Horus is not even supposed to be born of a virgin. A relief of his conception shows Isis in falcon form hovering over the penis of old dead Osiris and no legend ever states that is was a virgin birth.
Father? Sorry, but Osiris had other sons.
Royal descent? Wow, he must be the ultimate parallel thumb down I'm descended from royalty too, maybe I'm the second coming thumb down
Mother: Meri, actually no (this is stretching considering Isis is the mother and Meri means beloved as in Osiris's beloved), but that is inconsequential considering that they do not transliterate as such and Mary was such a common name that this is negligible.
Cave/Stable: Ummm no, Horus came from an egg, the rest is fabrication.
Annunciation: sorry but this is simply a lie because Horus's birth wasn't annunciated by anyone in Egyptian mythology. Even better is that there is no such thing as angels in Egyptian mythology.
Birth heralded by: Jesus wasn't heralded by a star = fail.
Birthdate: Jesus wasn't born on December 25 and nobody claims otherwise, so this is an automatic fail.
Birth announcement: straight lie, Horus's birth wasn't announced in Egyptian mythology.
Birth witnesses: Horus's birth wasn't witnessed in Egyptian mythology.
Later witnesses: once again, a lie, besides that, there isn't a specified number of wise men in the Bible so this goes to crap anyways.
Death threat during infancy: Alright, we now have two similar, although this a false change in names because it was Seth that went after Horus and Herut is made up to sound like Herod.
Handling in threat: Not sure about this one, all give it three though.
Rite of passage: these aren't even similar, besides that Horus was an adult at this point and it wasn't a rite of passage.
Age of Ritual: not cited for Horus because it isn't given.
No data between 12&30: invalid see above and two below.
Baptism location: Horus wasn't baptized, closest you'll get in Egyptian mythology is him getting thrown into some water... not nearly the same thing. Eridanus is the modern name of a constellation called "the river." It's Latin.
Age of Baptism: no age given because he wasn't baptized... someone should burn Massey's work because this is getting ridiculous.
Baptized by: wasn't baptized and Anup the Baptizer isn't a name that appears anywhere in Egyptian mythology... hehe Massey made it up that devilish little prankster...
Fate of baptizer: ...there wasn't one
Temptation/Result of temptation: another pure fabrication. There is a good story about Horus being tempted though which I will post for Kali... Horus succumbed to the temptation of his uncle, Seth (in a homosexual affair.) Horus later gets back at him by seducing him (another homosexual affair) and getting Seth pregnant.
Close followers: Horus had 16 close followers and they weren't anything like the disciples = fail.
Activities: actually no, there is absolutely no record of this... it's another of Massey's fabrications.
Horus raised Osiris from the grave: No Isis did = fail.
Location: there is no resurrection rites for Horus because he never died. And the words don't transliterate like that = fail.
Origin of name Lazarus: can you say stretch? Better yet, can you say "they do not transliterate like that".
Transfigured: Horus was not transfigured = fail.
Sermon of the Mount: Horus never did = fail.
Method of death: this is sad and laughable considering crucifixion was a Roman thing. Now what came first? Rome or Egypt? Even better is the fact that in Egyptian mythology Horus doesn't die.
Accompanied by: He never died, besides that, there might have been four thieves on Calvary with Jesus.
Burial: Horus never died = fail.
Fate after death: see above.
Resurrection announced by: see above
Future: No, Horus was the embodiment of the reigning Pharoah, and he has no prescribed future plans anything like this = fail.
"Ward Gasque, a volunteer book reviewer for Amazon.com surveyed twenty contemporary Egyptologists. He asked them about the origins of Jesus' name, the relationship between Horus and Jesus, whether both experienced a virgin birth, and whether the Egyptian religion considered Hourus to be an incarnation of God.
Ten responded, They agreed:
- Jesus' name is a Greek form of a very common Semitic name Jeshu'a, which is normally translated into English as Joshua.
- There is no evidence that Horus was born of a virgin, that he had twelve disciples, or that he was considered incarnation of God."
First of all, you are correct that it is Osiris that fits the Jesus mythology. Not exactly, but very much so. And we can certainly get into that if you want. You spent so much time arguing against Horus/Jesus, while never mentioning the correlations between the Osiris/Jesus connection.
Second, you present your information on Horus as though there's a concrete mythology that surrounds the god. Consider our current politics here in America. Nancy Pelosi is the new speaker of the house. Through out conservative news groups they seem to think that the politics of San Francisco will invade the American political landscape and corrupt our values. This is how Egyptian mythology operates. When a new dynasty came to power or the capitol moved, new gods came to prominence and old gods were given new mythologies that catered to the new power base.
This is the case with Horus. Yes, Isis is his mother, but his father changes sometimes. He is almost always considered the son of Osiris, but sometimes it's a virgin birth because Osiris had already descended into the afterlife. Sometimes he's the offspring of a sexual encounter between Isis and Osiris, a non-virgin birth. And other times, he is divinely given to Isis and Osiris by Ra, his grandfather or sometimes great grandfather, so that he could rule mankind in Ra's place after he'd retired to the afterlife. This is why Ra is often associated with the same patron animal as Horus. The falcon is the oldest divine symbol of Egypt.
And just to start the debate about Osiris, he bacme one of the most important gods of the Egyptian mythology because he was murdered and rose from the dead. Crucifixion as you present it in your argument is a false assumption in any Egyptian mythology, as they had no idea what it was. No Jesus parallel can be drawn in most of the characters mentioned by Adam's post with crucifixion. The crux of that part of the argument would have to center around being put to death or murdered.
And your last point about the guy from some book company asking biblical scholars about the Horus/Jesus connection makes no sense. You spend the enierty of your post pointing out that Horus doesn't fit the bill and then claim that this guy asked about Horus/Jesus? Why would he do that if it's so obvious that the two can not be compared? Should he not have been asking about Osiris/Jesus?
I think that it is a far stretch to equate Horus as a gift from Ra as a virgin birth as that would not even qualify as a birth, let alone of a virgin. The cirumstance is far different and so very different that trying to make a connection is fairly stupid imo. A side note, is that I find it interesting that Horus actually predates Osiris in Egyptian mythology, making the symbol of a falcon very old indeed.
*Osiris, in fact, was not a 'dying' god at all but a 'dead' god. He never returned among the living; he was not liberated from the world of the dead, as Tammuz was. On the contrary, Osiris altogether belonged to the world of the dead; it was from there that he bestowed his blessings upon Egypt. He was always depicted as a mummy, a dead king.*
Kingship and the gods: a study of ancient Near Eastern religion as the integration of society & nature. UChicago:1978 edition, p.289
*Perhaps the only pagan god for whom there is a resurrection is the Egyptian Osiris. Close examination of this story shows that it is very different from Christ's resurrection. Osiris did not rise; he ruled in the abode of the dead. As biblical scholar, Roland de Vaux, wrote, "What is meant of Osiris being 'raised to life?' Simply that, thanks to the ministrations of Isis, he is able to lead a life beyond the tomb which is an almost perfect replica of earthly existence. But he will never again come among the living and will reign only over the dead.… This revived god is in reality a 'mummy' god."... No, the mummified Osiris was hardly an inspiration for the resurrected Christ...As Yamauchi observes, "Ordinary men aspired to identification with Osiris as one who had triumphed over death." But it is a mistake to equate the Egyptian view of the afterlife with the biblical doctrine of resurrection. To achieve immortality the Egyptian had to meet three conditions: First, his body had to be preserved by mummification. Second, nourishment was provided by the actual offering of daily bread and beer. Third, magical spells were interred with him. His body did not rise from the dead; rather elements of his personality-his Ba and Ka-continued to hover over his body.*
The Resurrection of Jesus Christ: Myth, Hoax, or History?" David J. MacLeod, in The Emmaus Journal, V7 #2, Winter 98, p169
That is not the same as resurrection. His body was ripped into many pieces and spread. It was later put back together, but Osiris was never returned to life.
It's not so obvious to some people because a certain idiot by the name of Massey wrote a crapshooting article claiming that Horus and Jesus were identical (the claims of Massey are what are addressed in my post). Massey's work is a large part of the rampant parallelomania on the internet, when really it is all crap. That is not only is Jesus very unique and original, most religions have unique mythologies. As far as I can tell, the only influences occurred when cultures started equating each others gods to each other.
Originally posted by Nellinator
I think that it is a far stretch to equate Horus as a gift from Ra as a virgin birth as that would not even qualify as a birth, let alone of a virgin. The cirumstance is far different and so very different that trying to make a connection is fairly stupid imo. A side note, is that I find it interesting that Horus actually predates Osiris in Egyptian mythology, making the symbol of a falcon very old indeed.
Again, you're acting as though Egyptian mythology is concrete. Horus predates Osiris, but not in mythology. And it is a stretch to call Horus a "gift". Nor did I say as much. "Divinely given" isn't a gift, per se. Especially when you consider the reasoning behind it. He gave him for a selfish reason. Just as God gave Jesus to Mary and Joseph.
(On top of that, you've really gotten in the habit of calling everyone stupid. The internet isn't getting to you, is it?)
Originally posted by Nellinator
*Osiris, in fact, was not a 'dying' god at all but a 'dead' god. He never returned among the living; he was not liberated from the world of the dead, as Tammuz was. On the contrary, Osiris altogether belonged to the world of the dead; it was from there that he bestowed his blessings upon Egypt. He was always depicted as a mummy, a dead king.*
Kingship and the gods: a study of ancient Near Eastern religion as the integration of society & nature. UChicago:1978 edition, p.289
Resurrected and thenceforth secure from death, Osiris could have regained his throne and continued to reign over the living. But he decided to depart from this earth and retire to the 'Elysian Fields' where he warmly welcomed the souls of the just and reigned over the deadEgyptian Mythology, Tudor publishing 1975 , p.55
Sounds remarkably like Jesus deciding to ascend into heaven.
Also, in his earthly form, he was portrayed as a man, tall of stature with ebon or green skin. This is because he was originally a river god, he being the Nile and Isis the growth of new vegitation after the inundation.
Originally posted by Nellinator
*Perhaps the only pagan god for whom there is a resurrection is the Egyptian Osiris. Close examination of this story shows that it is very different from Christ's resurrection. Osiris did not rise; he ruled in the abode of the dead. As biblical scholar, Roland de Vaux, wrote, "What is meant of Osiris being 'raised to life?' Simply that, thanks to the ministrations of Isis, he is able to lead a life beyond the tomb which is an almost perfect replica of earthly existence. But he will never again come among the living and will reign only over the dead.… This revived god is in reality a 'mummy' god."... No, the mummified Osiris was hardly an inspiration for the resurrected Christ...As Yamauchi observes, "Ordinary men aspired to identification with Osiris as one who had triumphed over death." But it is a mistake to equate the Egyptian view of the afterlife with the biblical doctrine of resurrection. To achieve immortality the Egyptian had to meet three conditions: First, his body had to be preserved by mummification. Second, nourishment was provided by the actual offering of daily bread and beer. Third, magical spells were interred with him. His body did not rise from the dead; rather elements of his personality-his Ba and Ka-continued to hover over his body.*
The Resurrection of Jesus Christ: Myth, Hoax, or History?" David J. MacLeod, in The Emmaus Journal, V7 #2, Winter 98, p169
Most of this is addressing how he was portrayed after deciding to go into the afterlife to rule as king. Yes, he was a god who was portrayed as a mummy. This is how the Egyptians explained the practice of mummification. Moreover, the need for mummification was rested in a belief that you needed your body in the afterlife. Not physically, but because you weren't a god like Osiris, your soul needed a place to rest. Osiris, however, took his body with him to the after life. So, the flesh was given life again due to the spells cast over him by Isis and Anubis.(and Thoth, Nephtys and sometimes even Horus, depending on the specific myth) This was a divine spell they tricked Ra into giving them. (Not to be confused with the trick played on Ra by Hathor) It was after Isis recovered the body of her husband and took him from Phoenicia back to Egypt where she hid the body until the spells could be spoken. In the mean time, Set found the body, dismembered it and spread the parts all over Egypt. (Hence the 14 provinces of the Empire. One province for every body part.) This is why he appears as a mummy in his reliefs.
Originally posted by Nellinator
That is not the same as resurrection. His body was ripped into many pieces and spread. It was later put back together, but Osiris was never returned to life.
See above
Originally posted by Nellinator
It's not so obvious to some people because a certain idiot by the name of Massey wrote a crapshooting article claiming that Horus and Jesus were identical (the claims of Massey are what are addressed in my post). Massey's work is a large part of the rampant parallelomania on the internet, when really it is all crap. That is not only is Jesus very unique and original, most religions have unique mythologies. As far as I can tell, the only influences occurred when cultures started equating each others gods to each other.
I have nothing to say about the comparison between Horus and Jesus
And again, you can't treat Egyptian mythology as concrete fact from one myth to the next. It simply is not possible. These are the exact reasons so many gospels were left out of the bible, because they contradicted each other.