Can you handle the Truth?

Started by JesusIsAlive432 pages

“I have become a fool in boasting; you have compelled me. For I ought to have been commended by you; for in nothing was I behind the most eminent apostles, though I am nothing"

Again, this obviously includes Peter. Paul states that he is nothing to remind his audience that he does not really mean what he is saying because he is speaking as a fool, even though the facts that he mentions about himself are true from a qualification standpoint.

Peter did have a place in the overall scheme of things. He was a leader of sorts, but he was not a pope, vicar, priest, or any other title you want to confer on him. However, Peter was a bonafide apostle of Christ; hence, he had certain God-ordained responsibilities in the church (community). But Peter was not a supreme leader over all of the other Apostles, he was a leader among other leaders, kind of like the captain of the football team or the quarterback. But Peter was not the coach. Do you follow me? Just don't try and make Peter more than what the Scriptures reveal that he was that's all.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive

Peter is mentioned with preference at times (I concur with you on that) but so is James and John. Time and time again the Scriptures cite the triplets (Peter, James, and John). In fact, it was to the Apostle John that Jesus appeared on the isle of Patmos (I know Peter was already dead by then). But the point is the vision that John (not Peter) received from the Lord is all recorded in the Book of Revelation (some twenty-two chapters of prophecy, which is nearly three times what Peter wrote). Not to mention John wrote the "Gospel According to John" (Twenty-one chapters about the life, teachings, ministry, trial, crucifixion, and glorious resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ). Hmm...I wonder why Peter wasn't given this important assignment of writing one of the four Gospels? Peter's name is not on even one of the Gospels. There is Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, but no Peter (hmm...kinda strange don't you think since he was so important right Grandy?)

But…the entire body of Christ (i.e. Christians) disagree with you and the “Church Fathers” because we know what the Scriptures actually state. We don’t read into the text what we want or wish to be there, we take it for what it is.

[b]

Peter was not “their” leader, but “a” leader [b]among leaders in the early church. This is just how God operates. Someone had to spearhead the church, but [b]not exercise absolute authority over the entire church (ever heard of the “separation of powers?”). Anyhoo, the prerogative of total authority is reserved for Jesus only. God will appoint leaders over local flocks (just as He did with Peter, James, Paul, etc.), but it is completely contrary to Scripture and God’s order to invest total authority in one person, in the church. God just does not do this because of what it can lead do (i.e. cultism such as David Koresh-ism, Jim Jones-ism, polygamist compound-ism, Heaven’s Gate-ism and the like). Peter was a "seeming" pillar (again, I give you that) but so was James and John (go back and read the Scriptures). Don’t have either the time or inclination to look this up? Well, here it is:

Galatians 2:9
And when [b]James, Cephas, and [b]John, who seemed to be [b]pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Uh oh…did you just see that? The triplets were mentioned again, but…but (lip quivers) Peter (or Cephas, it doesn’t matter because it is referring to the same person) was listed [b]second and not first! What is the Roman Catholic Church going to do now?

(Runs for the hills).

I am just kidding. I did that just to show you that Peter was no Pope and that just because he is mentioned first (most of the time) that does not indicate that he somehow wielded supreme authority over any other apostle (the above verse in Galations 2:9 as well as my entire post refutes this wrong thinking).

[b]

But…notice what is conspicuous in its absence: Jesus [b]never told Peter that He would build His church on Peter. I know you would love for Jesus to have said that but He didn’t (thank God). If Jesus had said,

“You are Peter, and on [b]you, I will build my church.”

Then it would be settled for all eternity. The [b]rock that Jesus was referring to is [b]the rock of revelation of Who Jesus truly is: the Son of the living God (see Matthew 16:16 because it precedes and puts into proper context what Jesus is really saying). Jesus would be a fool to build His church on one fallible, sinful, Christ-disowning man who is in need of the Savior Himself. Jesus did not build His church on a man, [b]but on the reality that He is the Son of the living God. If you don’t believe this then you cannot be saved.

Incidently, Jesus is metaphorically referred to as a “Rock” in the Scriptures:

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that [b]spiritual Rock that followed them: [b]and that Rock was Christ.

(Thank you Holy Spirit for what you have just revealed to me. The Bible is right, you are the true Teacher of the Word of God).

Hey, Grand_Moff_Gav, I believe that the Holy Spirit just revealed something to me that I have [b]never seen before: [b]Nowhere in Scripture is Peter called a rock. (Again, thank you Holy Spirit.) I mean, here I am going back and forth with you Grandy and all along Jesus never even called Peter a rock. Here is what Jesus said to Peter:

Matthew 16:18
[b]And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Did you catch that!? Jesus simply said,

“…you are Peter and on [b]this rock….”

There is not one word about [b]Peter being the rock that Jesus was referring to. Hence, I submit to you Grandy that Peter is not the rock that Jesus has built His church on. Jesus never called Peter a rock (small or large rock). Jesus simply stated the man’s name and then proceeded to tell the man His plans for establishing His church.

Can you see this Grand_Moff_Gav ?

We are the ones who have misinterpreted what Jesus said. It is just a coincidence that Peter’s name means stone or rock, not some God-ordained prophecy that Jesus was announcing for the future. It is no different if Jesus were speaking to you Grandy and He were to say,

“Grand_Moff_Gav, you are Grand and it is going to be a [b]grand moment when I build my church.” It is just a coincidence that your name is Grand in that scenario.

[b]

You are free to characterize my actions as you construe them from your point of view.

No, my faith was not made by any man, [b]my faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (i.e. the Scriptures which are given by inspiration of God).

[b]

Can I speak candidly?

I believe that everything that I have written to you is in irrefutable accord with the Scriptures.

Paragraph after paragraph after paragraph of self-justifying rhetoric about the words of a single human being that lived 2 millenia ago. Why should any man on earth bend knee to Christ when his own followers tell each other they're going to hell and continue to be such poor examples of his teachings? And the same goes for Islam.

Originally posted by Devil King
Paragraph after paragraph after paragraph of self-justifying rhetoric about the words of a single human being that lived 2 millenia ago. Why should any man on earth bend knee to Christ when his own followers tell each other they're going to hell and continue to be such poor examples of his teachings? And the same goes for Islam.

Well, because apparently Jesus has faith in His church to do what they are supposed to do.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Well, because apparently Jesus has faith in His church to do what they are supposed to do.

Yeah, which one?

Originally posted by Devil King
Yeah, which one?

Any and all who do His Word.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Any and all who do His Word.

As translated, transcribed, interpreted, condemned or stepped-over and ignored by who?

Originally posted by Devil King
As translated, transcribed, interpreted, condemned or stepped-over and ignored by who?

Those believers who love the Lord and make an effort to keep His Word know who they are.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Those believers who love the Lord and make an effort to keep His Word know who they are.

So, it all comes down god-dar? Yeah, you're saying that the followers of Jesus are right and just, as long as they subscribe to your perspective. This is why no man should bend knee to your false god.

Originally posted by Devil King
So, it all comes down god-dar? Yeah, you're saying that the followers of Jesus are right and just, as long as they subscribe to your perspective. This is why no man should bend knee to your false god.

"...god-dar?"

What...in the world...is god dar?

No, they don't have to subscribe to my perspective, but they should subscribe to God's Word.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
"...god-dar?"

What...in the world...is god dar?

No, they don't have to subscribe to my perspective, but they should subscribe to God's Word.

Which version of "God's Word"? Yours or theirs?

Originally posted by Devil King
Which version of "God's Word"? Yours or theirs?

You didn't answer my question. What is "god-dar?"

The Holy Bible.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You didn't answer my question. What is "god-dar?"

The Holy Bible.

Lovely sock move. God-dar is the same as gay-dar.

The Holy bible, what? You're both reading out of the same one, and you're both saying the other is wrong. Again, why should a human being bend knee to an ideology that doesn't have it's own shit together? Jesus would be ashamed of you.

Originally posted by Templares
Why do you assume that i have an "eternal future"? From what we know today, humans dont have immortality. Could you prove that the religious concept of "life after death" exists?

There isn’t anything that I could say to you to make you believe in life after death. I could show you testimony after testimony from experts but I am not persuaded that you would give it equal time or objective consideration.

I already quoted something like this before. For man-made objects like washing machine, we OBJECTIVELY know that they are a product of design. With a little research, we could find empirically the designer's identity, purpose, and the mechanism of design, as we have experience that humans can make such things. For none-human made objects like the Universe, using religious myths to support a supernatural designer is stupid especially since We DONT HAVE OBJECTIVE and EMPIRICAL ways of finding the designer's identity, the designer's existence, the designer's mechanism for creation etc.. All we have are conflicting religious myths relying on SUBJECTIVE reasoning and BLIND FAITH as to validate its claim. According to the "sacred book" Vedas, Brahma created the Universe but the Bible-thumping Christians believe its God, so which religious interpretation is true and what makes it "truer" than the other? Why use a supernatural designer as an explanation for the Universe' existence when a natural and undesigned explanation like the Big bang would suffice. We still havent encountered any supernatural phenomena at all, so why make the huge illogical jump to a supernatural designer?

How do you know that a washing machine is a product of design? What earmarks, signs, clues, or characteristics lead you to believe something like this? The universe/earth have more evidence of design than a washing machine. This universe works inasmuch as everything that is necessary for life to exist is present in this cosmos.

Can’t you see this?

Life is infinitely more complicated than a crappy washing machine.

I think everyone here is already aware of the dangers of using the Bible as a scientific tool. And historically speaking, the Bible has a lot more common with mythological stories like the Epic of Gilgamesh (just ask Noah) than real history.

Prophetically, these are the requirements for the real Messiah, the Jewish concept that Christianity borrowed, twisted, and misinterpreted to prove that they are right, that Jesus FAILED:

These are not a prophecies about Jesus. These are not the requirements for the real Messiah because none of it is based on Scripture, but on your own case of re-worded text.

- The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26) - Unfulfilled by Jesus

This is not a prophecy about Jesus, simply read the context to ascertain this.

- Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4) - Unfulfilled by Jesus.

You are inserting your own words into the text. It does not say anything about nations looking to Jesus for guidance once He is King. Besides, has it ever occurred to you that this prophecy has yet to be fulfilled? There is a coming a time where Jesus will occupy His office as King of Kings and Lord of Lords on earth, in the city of Jerusalem for a period of one thousand years.

- The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17) - Unfulfilled by Jesus. Christianity DROVE Judaism to the fringes.

Again, this prophecy is not addressed to Jesus nor about Jesus. So far your problem is that you don’t know when the Scripture is referring to Jesus and when it is not.

- He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10) - Fulfilled.

- The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:12) - Unfulfilled by Jesus.

Stop inserting your own terms into the text, the Scriptures say nothing about the “Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with the ‘fear of God’.” You made ever last word of that up (just check the reference yourself).

- Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4) - Unfulfilled by Jesus.

You made up those words as well. I see why Jesus has not fulfilled any of these words: it is because none of them are in the Bible.

- Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9) - Unfulfilled by Jesus. Certainly not the Jewish one which this prophecy speaks.

This is not talking about Jesus either (sighs). This is most likely a reference to the one thousand year reign of Christ (period, age, era).

- He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10) - Unfulfilled by Jesus.

You made up more terminology that is not in the Bible. The Gentiles are nations other than the Jews, and you know what? There are many non-Jews (i.e. Gentiles) who seek Jesus. I am one of many.

- All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12) - Unfulfilled by Jesus. Fulfilled by the Balfour declaration.

This is not a prophecy about Jesus. Check out this link:
http://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq240.html

- Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8) - Unfulfilled by Jesus.

This prophecy is not about Jesus (either). Besides, death being swallowed up forever is to yet to come. Jesus initiated the process through His death, burial, and resurrection. But there is coming a day when death will no longer exist.

- There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8) - Unfulfilled by Jesus.

When you read the Scriptures do you read what you are thinking or what the Bible actually states? Show me where in that verse it mentioned hunger or illness being no more?

- All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19) - Unfulfilled by Jesus.

This verse is not about Jesus so tell me how could He possibly fulfill it?

- The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11) - Unfulfilled by Jesus. [/quote][/b]

This prophecy says nothing about the Jewish people and it definitely does not concern Jesus (i.e. it is not about Him). I truly see why you believe the way you do: you take Scriptures out of their context or you insert your own words into the text. But worst of all, you incorrectly interpret the Scripture to be a reference to Jesus.

- He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7) - Unfulfilled by Jesus.

This verse is not talking about Jesus, it is just speaking generally about anyone who preaches the gospel (this includes anyone).

- Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5) - Unfulfilled by Jesus.

These verses are about Jesus and He did fulfill every word in minute detail. But here is the bad part: it does not say a thing about nations recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel because this prophecy is not about Israel. This prophecy is specifically about Jesus.

- The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23) - Unfulfilled by Jesus. not gonna happen anytime soon

Read the passage for yourself. Does it say anything about “peoples of the world turning to the Jews for spiritual guidance?” It can’t even be inferred because it is no in there. It definitely is not a prophecy about Jesus.

- The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55) - Unfulfilled by Jesus.

Consistent error. Again, not one mention of what you wrote and what the text says. This is not about Jesus either.

- Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9) - Unfulfilled by Jesus.

It states that those who dwell in the cities of Israel will burn these weapons (and it actually specifies them) and make fires with them for a period of seven years. It does not say anything about “weapons of war being destroyed.” Will someone go and check what I am saying so that they can attest to what I am witnessing here.

Wow, this is just unbelievable error on your part Templares. Also, this is unfilled by Jesus because it does not refer to Him (and because it is not in the text).

- The Temple will be rebuilt resuming many of the suspended mitzvot (Ezekiel 40) - Unfulfilled by Jesus. Not gonna happen anytime soon with the Dome of the Rock sitting on top of it.

This is yet to be fulfilled because it is yet to be fulfilled ( how can Jesus fulfill a prophecy that is yet to be fulfilled? Just because you haven’t died yet does not mean that you are not going to die. Well, just because a prophecy has not been fulfilled yet does not mean that it will not be (it is set for some time in the future). Besides, this prophecy is not about Jesus anyway so tell me how can He fulfill it?

- He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9) - Unfulfilled by Jesus.

This is about the Jews language (i.e. Hebrew) being restored to them (and it has been) so where in the world did you get what you wrote above from? And for the hundredth time this prophecy is not about Jesus.

- Jews will know the Torah without study (Jeremiah 31:33) - Unfulfilled by Jesus.

The law of God is the Word of God (all of it) not just the first five books of Moses i.e. the Torah. Also, this is yet to be fulfilled—but not by Jesus.

- He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4) - Unfulfilled by Jesus.

This is not a prophecy about Jesus, but a promise to those who delight themselves in the Lord (just like the Scripture states).

“Worthy desires?”

Templares, look at the text, does it say anything about “worthy desires?”

- He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9) - Unfulfilled by Jesus.

I can tell without even looking up those passages that Amos 9:13-15, Isaiah 11:6-9, and Ezekiel are not about Jesus. Isaiah 51:3 is but it doesn’t say a thing about “taking barren land…etc.”

This is the absolute worst case of Scripture misinterpretation that I have ever witnessed. Your number one problem was not just misinterpreting Scripture, but totally inventing all new text. Oh, I almost forgot: three of the references that you cited were not about Jesus so there is no possibility of Him fulfilling them.

To assume that god designed/created the universe has MORE baseless assumptions attach to it than saying the Big Bang. First you have to assume that a religious concept like god exists, he is supernatural, he is eternal or at least exist before the Big Bang (uncaused), he has the power to create a universe, and that he is indeed the designer (and not some other god, basically you would also have to prove that there is only one god if youre into monotheism). That is at least 5 baseless assumptions with zero emprircal evidence backing it, relying only on blind faith. The Big Bang's existence is backed by solid emprical evidence and its one assumption, that it is uncaused could be explained by quantum mechanics which states that the so called law of causality breaks down at fundamental levels. Which of the two, supernatural god or natural Big bang has more explanatory power and which one is a dead weight?

Natural Big Bang is a dead weight because nothing can come from nothing. All material things come from other material things. So, how could matter come from non-matter?

Originally posted by Devil King
The Holy bible, what? You're both reading out of the same one, and you're both saying the other is wrong. Again, why should a human being bend knee to an ideology that doesn't have it's own shit together? Jesus would be ashamed of you.

Originally posted by Devil King
Lovely sock move. God-dar is the same as gay-dar.

The Holy bible, what? You're both reading out of the same one, and you're both saying the other is wrong. Again, why should a human being bend knee to an ideology that doesn't have it's own shit together? Jesus would be ashamed of you.

If person A believes that 2+2=4 and person B believes that 2+2=3, who is correct? All you have to do is do the math to find out right? Well, all you have to do is read the Bible (in context) to understand what it actually says. But, you must first be born again so that the Teacher on the inside of your spirit can illuminate the Word of God in your heart and mind. Besides, there are some things that are not critical that two people can disagree on. What we cannot disagree on are core, fundamental Truths such as Who Jesus is, or how to be born again. Things that do not affect a person's salvation are subject to discussion.

THis thread's turned into a Bible study!!

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
In the right hands, even the truth can be a lie. The problem with a lot of Christians like you is that you don¡¦t care about the truth, for you only care about your belief.

Really, is that why I spend so much time providing fact after fact in support of what I write?

So you acknowledge the truth of the message you just discount the messenger? That is the strangest thing I have ever read. Truth is truth irrespective of who communicates it. If Pinocchio and George Washington both said that 2+2=4, it would not matter that both of them have a history of lying, the fact that 2+2=4 is true regardless.

You are guessing wrong. I told you the truth, but you can¡¦t see it. You can¡¦t handle the truth. You want control were there is none.

No, I simply wanted you to be informed of the facts.

You don¡¦t know what science is. I would guess you have never been to college, and that you have been home schooled only. I would also guess, you have never been out of your town or city or community.

Wow, a lot of assumptions (are you fishing for personal information about me again?) 😄

Nothing ever happens by accident, but that does not mean there is a supernatural reason. The universe is far more wondrous then you can imagine.

So then what is the cause of this universe if nothing ever happens by accident and if there is no supernatural explanation, especially if the universe is far more wondrous then you can imagine?

Why do you feel that this universe is so wondrous?

Originally posted by queeq
THis thread's turned into a Bible study!!

I know.

Isn't there a saying in the Bible about pearls and swine? 😉