Can you handle the Truth?

Originally posted by Da Pittman
But then that is really a mute point because a law would apply to everyone that it targets so by that logic it will always be "equal". I could make a law saying that only whites can marry blacks, and Christians can only marry Christians so each set is treated "equal". It doesn't say some white or some Christians, I could even say everyone named Bob can do something so every Bob has the same rights.

If Christians can only marry Christians, and Muslims can not marry Christians, that's not equal, is it?

Originally posted by Bardock42
No. A law saying every Jew needs to wear a yellow star on their coat, is not equal. Because a Jew has to were a yellow star while, a Christian, for example, doesn't. Which is not equal.

If Christians can only marry Christians, and Muslims can not marry Christians, that's not equal, is it?

You now want to break the religion into categories such as Christian, Muslim and so on because the law targets one religious group and not the other so you think that it is not equal. Now with the marriage law this targets just straight marriage and excludes gay couples so how is this different? This targets the sexuality of the male and female, this is just like targeting the Jews from the Christians.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
By the logic that you were using all Jews must wear the star and it doesn't make a difference if they are male or female, black or white, gay or straight they are Jew so they must wear a star so all Jews are treated equal. Now you are looking at the situation as a whole just as I was doing because if you look at it compared to other situation then it is not equal.

You now want to break the religion into categories such as Christian, Muslim and so on because the law targets one religious group and not the other so you think that it is not equal. Now with the marriage law this targets just straight marriage and excludes gay couples so how is this different? This targets the sexuality of the male and female, this is just like targeting the Jews from the Christians.

Yes, all Jews are equal in that scenario. What's your point?

I think you are not looking at this logically. The point is that straight and gay people are treated equal, while in your example the differently religious people are treated differently. So I don't think your analogy works.

Gay couples are not treated the equal as straight couples, that is true. But the point is that the single gay person is treated equal to the single straight person of the same gender.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes, all Jews are equal in that scenario. What's your point?

I think you are not looking at this logically. The point is that straight and gay people are treated equal, while in your example the differently religious people are treated differently. So I don't think your analogy works.

Gay couples are not treated the equal as straight couples, that is true. But the point is that the single gay person is treated equal to the single straight person of the same gender.

In your scenario “male” and “female” are treated equally not straight and gay, the male population just as religion is broken up into many different groups and having a law that targets one group doesn’t make it equal. You can not honestly tell me that changing the law to make the only form of marriage recognized by the federal government is a union between only a man and a woman is not targeting the gay population?

Originally posted by Da Pittman
I’m using your logic.

In your scenario “male” and “female” are treated equally not straight and gay, the male population just as religion is broken up into many different groups and having a law that targets one group doesn’t make it equal. You can not honestly tell me that changing the law to make the only form of marriage recognized by the federal government is a union between only a man and a woman is not targeting the gay population?

🤨

No, in my scenario (i.e. reality in the US), straights and gays are treated the same. Females and males, are not.

And I didn't say that it wasn't "targeting" the gay population. And I didn't say that it is not homosexuals that suffer most from the law. I said gays and straights have the same rights. And they do.

Originally posted by Bardock42
🤨

No, in my scenario (i.e. reality in the US), straights and gays are treated the same. Females and males, are not.

And I didn't say that it wasn't "targeting" the gay population. And I didn't say that it is not homosexuals that suffer most from the law. I said gays and straights have the same rights. And they do.

Do have a nice day, maybe we will chat about something else some time.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Gays and straights are not treated the same, females and males are if you take out the sexuality. We are going around and around on this and you can not see my point or unwilling to accept it and I do not agree with yours. How can a law target someone and still be treating everyone the same? All I can see is contradiction from your statements and this going nowhere so I will simply drop this.

Do have a nice day, maybe we will chat about something else some time.

Originally posted by Bardock42
It's not an "agree" thing. I am right, that's all there is to it. There's no two sides to this coin. There's just my statement being factually correct. This is not a matter of opinion. It isn't.

It is not a 2 = 2 thing which you want to think it is. Do not bother responding because I'm done with this unless you want to get in the last word.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
If you can not see that there is a difference and how you keep contradicting your statement then there is nothing left to say.

It is not a 2 = 2 thing which you want to think it is. Do not bother responding because I'm done with this unless you want to get in the last word.

I am not though. You are just not following it. I acknowledged that gays are targeted by the law. They are the "losers" of the law giving. BUT, the law is the same for straights and gays. That's not a question.

Every gay man can do exactly (absolutely exactly), the same when it comes to marriage as every straight man.

Do you really not see that? It is a 2=2 thing...

It's mind boggling that you can not see that, I have absolutely no explanation for your inability to acknowledge this fact...maybe overuse of "political correctness", I don't know.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I am not though. You are just not following it. I acknowledged that gays are targeted by the law. They are the "losers" of the law giving. BUT, the law is the same for straights and gays. That's not a question.

Every gay man can do exactly (absolutely exactly), the same when it comes to marriage as every straight man.

Do you really not see that? It is a 2=2 thing...

It's mind boggling that you can not see that, I have absolutely no explanation for your inability to acknowledge this fact...maybe overuse of "political correctness", I don't know.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
So who are you going for in the Super Bowl, or do you not watch it.

Look, it doesn't say anything against gays. And it doesn't say that there shouldn't be homosexual marriage. It just says, that under the current system straights and gays are treated equally under the law. Sometimes equality is not what is needed.

A gay man, wants to marry a man, but he can only marry a woman.
A straight man, wants to marry a woman, and he can only marry a woman.

Red is the way they are treated by the law. As you can see, it is the same (word for word). Their wants are different though.

How can you not just say "Yes, yes indeed, that is the same, as true as I sit here reading it, those two sentences are the same"?

Do you not watch the game.

I'm not trying to be a dick but I'm done with this topic, I would rather talk about something else. It is not a political correctness thing, I'm far from being politically correct.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Do you not watch the game.

I'm not trying to be a dick but I'm done with this topic, I would rather talk about something else. It is not a political correctness thing, I'm far from being politically correct.

What is it then? How can you stand here, and honestly proclaim that those two things are not the same. How? Please explain it to me, I don't understand why? Why would you do it? I am seriously perplexed by it, I am absolutely unable to grasp the reasons.

By the absolute letter of the law, taking out all other factors and meanings of the words you are correct that they law is the same which I have said over and over. However gays and straights are not equal, the law does not treat them the same because it targets one group over the other. This is why we have jury's in our court system because their is two ways to read a law, by the letter and the intent of the law and by the letter of the law it is correct that gays and straights have the same rights. By the intent of the law they do not have the same rights as straights because the law was specifically written to exclude them and target them.

This is the same as the needing to read and write to vote that targeted the blacks. The law was written to included all people and treat them the same and by the letter of the law it did just that, to vote you need to be able to read but you say that this is not the same which in fact it is the exact same thing.

I'm tried of you talking to me like I'm a complete idiot, I'm not and this is getting tiresome. I'm more than willing to go over something for a long time and debate almost any topic but I have tried to explain to you in so many different ways and see you jumping back and forth and the tone that you have been using toward me is taking out any enjoyment of this debate. I happen to be a very intelligent man, not all things are black and white when it comes to law and humans and this is one of them.

They are equal.

It is a fact.

Both groups can do exactly the same thing.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
They are equal.

It is a fact.

Both groups can do exactly the same thing.

The inequality isn't man to man or female to female, it is man to female or female to man. A man has the same rights as another man, but not of a woman. Thus, it is not "equal".

It is also not equal because they do not even treat being "gay" as a classification of gender. [Deane v. Conaway] So how can something even be equal if it is not even in the equation?

Originally posted by Da Pittman
It is also not equal because they do not even treat being "gay" as a classification of gender. [Deane v. Conaway] So how can something even be equal if it is not even in the equation?

something doesn't have to be unequal to be discriminatory

I don't see it as an inequity so much as needless restrictions.

****, the best example I can think of is stuff like gender relations in tribal societies (I'm taking a gender course right now).

They had very strict divisions of labour and social roles based on gender lines, which were seen as being equal. So like, both genders were "equal" but entirely unfree. I think that is more apt to the issue of gay marriage, in that as individuals both men and women are equal to those within their same gender yet each of those individuals, gay or straight, face needless restrictions to their individual rights regarding marriage.

maybe that makes sense

Well by US law they do not consider being gay a classification of being male or female so general laws such as the DOMA are legal and constitutional.

My main issue as to what they have been saying is that it teats gays and straights the same because they are only looking at the letter of the law but the intent of the law is far different.