Objectivity in Music.

Just for the sake of this being academic.

EPIIIBITES proposes that regardless of whether you like music or not, regardless of what your taste is, there is such a thing as factually good music and factually bad music. NOTHING to do with anything other than the music that is produced, not the musicians, not anything. He proposes there is a universal truth, fact, beyond all deniability, that there is factually good music, or factually bad, outside of personal taste.

I propose the opposite; There is no factually good or bad, there is only opinion. Informed opinions or not, it's still opinion on what is good music or bad music. No matter how obvious something is, eg: The Hendrix Vs Spears argument, it's still not a fact that one makes better music, it's all preference. That is my side.

So, for the sake of argument. Vote.

I'd prefer the following: If you're going to vote, make sure you post your view too. If you're going to be sad enough to sock just to get votes, then you're ruining it and you are sad.

-AC

For starters. You're unfair for starting a thread that misinterprets what I said.

I never said anything about "factually" good or bad music. You implied that out of your own logic.

I've ALWAYS said there aren't facts that can prove it.

How typical of you to twist things to your favour.

Good job!

This is my explanation of the argument...

There's so many intricacies as to why you might like or dislike a song that go far beyond your comprehension...same as the intricacies that determine what food you like. And the outcome of what sounds or tastes good to you or not has nothing to do with the actual quality of the music or food in question.

If I go to a 5 star fine-dining restaurant and say "I don't like that dish", that doesn't mean squat! Who the heck am I to then suggest that it's a bad dish?

More realistically, you'd have to turn to a fine dining chef, have him explore the determinng factors of what makes good fine dining food, and trust his informed opinion over simply going off of your taste.

These are Alpha Centauri's responses to my argument...

No, I know why I like and dislike songs. You may not have control over your mental capacity, but I have control over mine.

If I eat steak that tastes horrible, it's not good food, to me. If you eat that same steak and like the taste, then it's good food to you. The same with music.

The customer is always right. Ever heard the phrase? The chef is there to serve you. If there was a universal truth that certain foods were good or bad, there'd be no need for a menu, you complete idiot.

Taste determines verdict. There isn't a universal truth or standard, that's what you need to accept. Your insisting that there is will not hold up.

No, you wouldn't. You'd say "I don't like the way this tastes, it's not good.". That's not a fact, it's an opinion, just like "Good dining food" is an opinion.

Just like music.

The point being, informed opinion based on determining factors (originality, innovation, emotion, etc...) should be used to look at if music is crap or not. It's not like good music has to have ALL of these, but a crap song usually has little-to-none of these.

Not everyone who listens to the radio has an infromed opinion about whether or not a song is crap.

But there IS such a thing as crap music, crap food, and crap fashion. It exists, regardless of what your taste is regarding it.

It can't necessarily be proven by facts as suggested in the thread description, but it can be recognized by informed opinion...not always, but more often than not.

There is a truth about good and bad music that exists apart from opinion.

That's all I have to say.

Go ahead and vote.

Number of consecutive posts does not equate to validity of argument

Sorry...but the thread description was a little misleading.

I never misrepresented anything you said EPIIIBITES, I made sure not to, and I could easily have made you seem stupid.

However, I'm confident you'll do that on your own, as you have done by even holding the belief and as evidenced by your panic.

You believe there is a universal truth that sets good and bad music apart from any opinion, there isn't, but either way, that's what I described your stance as.

The only reason you're upset is cos you wanted to mislead people by packing this thread full of off point analogies and flawed tangents.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
EPIIIBITES proposes that regardless of whether you like music or not, regardless of what your taste is, there is such a thing as factually good music and factually bad music.

I don't care if you think the word "factual" belongs there (and I know your reasons why, and how you think it relates to truth), but I don't think it belongs there, becasue I think there are certain truths which exist that can't be proven by facts (such as killing being wrong).

You misinterpreted what I said, and as people start to understand my argument, they'll agree with me that you've done so.

But there aren't, so again you prove your idiocy.

Stop the panic, are you afraid or something? Nothing I've said is misleading, I've accurately depicted your stance, and even if I didn't, you certainly made it clear.

So let the people vote, stop being a beggar.

-AC

Cute AC.

I just clearly demonstrated how you misinterpreted what I said...but you apear to be in denial (as it seems you've been in the past) about the blatantly obvious for the sake of not losing an argument.

Oh well...

Let's just hear the verdict then...

You do realise this thread isn't to decide objectivity in music, right? It's to show how many agree with either of us.

There isn't any objectivity in music perception, that's a fact.

-AC

We'd like to see these facts AC. Show them to us!

PS. Now he'll bring out his little dictionary, look up the word "fact", and say...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
[b]fact

Something that actually exists; reality; truth.[/B]

I've spent about three threads smacking you in the face with them, I'll not allow it to detract from this thread.

Your desperation is sad.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I've spent about three threads smacking you in the face with them, I'll not allow it to detract from this thread.

Don't

We're worse than a married couple. 😮

WE'RE not anything.

You're just stupid and love attention, hence why you can't just let it drop, even when you request I do, and then I do.

-AC

We're a couple AC...c'mon.

I'll report you for trolling if the next post you say to me isn't on topic, and seeing as you don't want to keep dwelling on the same argument, I'd consider your words.

-AC

How completely uncool.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'll report you for trolling if the next post you say to me isn't on topic

61 people have visited this thread.

3 have voted (and I'm not sure if one of them is you)

Nobody cares!

Partly because you totally flubbed the poll.

Now you wanna report me for having a little fun with a couple posts???

What are you???