Objectivity in Music.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Again...AC is going on about stuff not being fact (which I've agreed with), stuff being opinion (which I've agreed with...although partially), and he won't accept that informed opinion (which has proven well time and again by consensus in the past) is what points to there being a truth about all of this.

It doesn't point to anything of the sort. It's just loads of people who agree, it doesn't make anything fact or true.

This whole debate is because you think you can separate the two.

-AC

Exactly...and all your argument to that is, is...

"Well, you're wrong"

"Fact!"

I'm glad we disagree

Because that's all I need to say, because you are.

Fact and truth are not separate, and considering your ignorance of this is what's causing you to still reply, knowing that admitting it would mean self-defeat, that's why you won't say it. Not that I need your admission, you're wrong anyway, it'd just give you back a bit of dignity.

-AC

It's just a difference of opinion at the end of the day, as people have tried to show you.

And you being so uncomfortable with that is reason for concern.

Saying...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
...because you are.

It appears you fail to recognize that what you hold true as logic, might not be logical at all. But you don't even consider that...becasue you just maintian it's logic.

Sorry...but I say you're wrong...deal with it.

No, me saying that does not make you wrong.

The fact that it's back up with undeniable proof and evidence that you are, is what makes you wrong. So instead of tell us we don't understand, or telling us to get over it, or telling us to give it up, please realise that you aren't debating anything you can win.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, me saying that does not make you wrong.

The fact that it's back up with undeniable proof and evidence that you are, is what makes you wrong.

And nothing can make you even consider that what you think is a fact could be wrong...becasue you just simply keep maintaining it's a fact.

THAT'S your problem.

At the end of the day, quoting one definition of the word "truth" from a dictionary to show it's been linked with fact really says NOTHING.

There's no way you can DESCRIBE truth unless you're God I guess.

Until then, it's ultimately down to opinion as to whether truth is subjective or not (and hey...maybe one of us has a more informed opinion about THAT than the other...which could count for lots) 😉

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Nobody can deny that Hendrix was a factually talented guitarist, that is the factual area; talent. However, that doesn't make Voodoo Chile a factually good song, does it?

yes, actually it does 😛

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
He is saying Britney Spears makes truthfully bad music

she does 😛

ok ill stop. yes its all subjective, but sometimes the miniscule minority (example: those who think jimmy sucked and spears has talent) need to be ignored.

Don't worry...they are ignored...and it's almost unanimous with people who have informed opinions about music.

That says lots about the truth of my argument...(although, as AC will maintain, it doesn't prove as fact).

So what? Doesn't mean it's not a truth that we simply just can't explain.

I'll ask you once more, make it a single post, stop with the panic rushing.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
You (and some others) consider it as a fact...I (and some others) don't!

Facts are not up for debate, do you not get that? A fact is a fact, facts are undeniable. You cannot disagree with a fact.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
And nothing can make you even consider that what you think is a fact could be wrong...becasue you just simply keep maintaining it's a fact.

Because it IS. If there was a doubt in my mind, I would not be claiming it as fact, but it is. The very idea you are putting on me is the one YOU need to adopt. It's not open for debate just because you can't accept that fact and truth are one.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
At the end of the day, quoting one definition of the word "truth" from a dictionary to show it's been linked with fact really says NOTHING.

There's no way you can DESCRIBE truth unless you're God I guess.

Truth is fact, that is known. I keep trying to figure out just how or why you really, REALLY do not understand that. It cannot be just because you are clinging to "TRUTH DOESN'T MEAN FACT!", it can't be, because truth is fact. There must be something inherently wrong with you, or this was all just a test to make a nuisance of yourself.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Until then, it's ultimately down to opinion as to whether truth is subjective or not (and hey...maybe one of us has a more informed opinion about THAT than the other.)

It's really, really not, EPIIIBITES. It's just not.

Look at it this way: If every single truth that we know exists, is also a fact...that's not coincidence. It's because truth and fact are one.

The Sun is hot, fatal wounds kill, jumping off a 100 ft building onto concrete with your head first will kill youl. These are truths, facts, things that, regardless of your opinion, are undeniable.

The same applies to there being no good or bad music OUTSIDE of opinion.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Don't worry...they are ignored...and it's almost unanimous with people who have informed opinions about music.

That says lots about the truth of my argument...(although, as AC will maintain, it doesn't prove as fact).

So what? Doesn't mean it's not a truth that we simply just can't explain.

He was agreeing with me, you fool. He was saying that the people who love Britney Spears have less credible opinions, not that they are factually/truthfully wrong.

Look:

Originally posted by Schecter
ok ill stop. yes its all subjective, but sometimes the miniscule minority (example: those who think jimmy sucked and spears has talent) need to be ignored.

Jimi (It's not Jimmy, to everyone who keeps spelling it wrong.) "sucking" with regards to his MUSIC, NOT TALENT, is pure opinion. It's not wrong, it may be a less credible opinion, but it's not wrong.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Facts are not up for debate, do you not get that? A fact is a fact, facts are undeniable. You cannot disagree with a fact.

It's very much a philosophical debate...(as people have tried to make you understand).

But all you do is keep your head down and maintain it is a fact. Not very open-minded if you ask me.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I agree...but what you're talking about isn't fact (ie. Paris is the capital of France)

Truth IS fact, that is also a fact. You need to stop ignoring it.

There's nothing philosophical about it, you're trying to be in an attempt to make your pathetic outlook seem realistic. It's simple:

Fact and truth are one, it's fact and truth that there is no objectively good or bad music. That's how it is, nothing you say will ever change it.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Truth IS fact, that is also a fact. You need to stop ignoring it.

And to be precise, I'm not agreeing that truth is proven by fact...I'm saying that truth can can exist apart from facts. There aren't facts that can always prove a truth.

Sometimes there are (ie. a thermometer and the sun)...but sometimes there aren't (as in what the truth is about killing being wrong)

You don't undertand that concept, and so just simply say "well, you're wrong"...as if you KNOW what you're saying about truth and facts is logical, and what I'm saying isn't.

You don't KNOW anything...you're tricking yourself into thinking that a dictionary definition of "truth" is pretty much all the evidence you essentially need.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I'm not ignoring it...I'm just not agreeing with it, because with as huge a topic as truth, I don't have to. It's up for debate.

Not in this debate it isn't.

-AC

And your answer to my comment...

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
You don't KNOW anything...you're tricking yourself into thinking that a dictionary definition of "truth" is pretty much all the evidence you essentially need.

-AC

I have a question, it's simple and it requires a simple answer, ok?

You believe truth and fact are separate, wrong, but that's what you claim you believe. You've said fact is objective, but does this mean you believe truth is SUBJECTIVE? I assume you do, as you've said that you think a truth exists, and I do not, so you must feel truth is subjective, do you?

Once you've answered that question, I'll ask my next one. Don't go on tangents, don't go off topic, simple answer.

-AC

Stop putting words in my mouth...I never talk about facts...you do.

As for your answer...no...truth is not subjective. The perception of it is.

You percieve the truth to be different from mine...but it's only really one thing.

Ask your next question then...

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Stop putting words in my mouth...I never talk about facts...you do.

Oh I know you hate facts, facts have a devestating effect on your debate, since they prove you wrong. I understand your hatred of them, but this doesn't mean they can be ignored.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
As for yor answer...no...truth is not subjective. The perception of it is.

That makes no sense. So...truth isn't subjective, as in...cannot be denied...but the perception of it is subjective, so really...it can be denied, you'd just be wrong to deny it...which would basically mean...truth can't be denied. Ie: Fact is truth, what I'm saying is fact, and you can't deny it.

Here's what I want you to do for me now:

Step 1: Define what you think objective "crap" is, so we can wrap this up.

Step 2: I want you apply that rationale, that criteria you used to define objective good/bad, to post why you think a song, any song, is objectively GOOD (Say, Lily Allen's Smile or whatever), to the point that YOU BELIEVE it stops being opinion at all. Simple enough, do that for me, please.

If you can do that, to the point that I can NOT deny it, you'll have proven your point.

-AC

I've done all that AC...apart from actually "proving" anything, which I can't.

But I maintain that just becasue I can't prove it, it doesn't mean it's not true.

So there's no point in trying to do something (you already know) can't be done.

The only thing to do is learn to live with the possibility that you might be wrong becasue you really don't KNOW anything. You only THINK you do becasue you're close-minded.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I've done all that AC...apart from actually "proving" anything, which I can't.

But I maintain that just becasue I can't prove it, it doesn't mean it's not true.

So there's no point in trying to do something (you already know) can't be done.

I'll ask you again, civilly, because this has gotten off-topic and I am attempting to re-focus it. I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm asking you, as a participant in this debate, to do something.

Step 1: Define what you think objective "crap" is, so we can wrap this up.

Step 2: I want you apply that rationale, that criteria you used to define objective good/bad, to post why you think a song, any song, is objectively GOOD (Say, Lily Allen's Smile or whatever), to the point that YOU BELIEVE it stops being opinion at all. Simple enough, do that for me, please.

If you can do that, to the point that I can NOT deny it, you'll have proven your point.

As an aside, when you've provided the final debate as to what song is objectively good and what makes the song of your choosing objectively good, I will reply with either my conceding or my counter.

-AC