Shaman vs Shaman X-Man

Originally posted by King_Mungi
He doesn't have augmented reflexes, as he has been beaten by people lower than Shaman. Even Department H Silencers took it to him.

Like you said you don't read much of them, but Shaman has out thought Carcass a being that controlled the entire Realm of the Dead and threatened to destroy all reality through the Unmasking. Who saved all of reality? Shaman.

Not correct, Nate has not shown superior reflexes at all. He does not have a good track record against guys with the likes of Shaman.

Shaman doesn't even need to speak to perform his spells, he thinks and it happens as shown when he and Dr.Strange teamed up to fight his evil twin in Infinity Crusade.

Then why are you making claims when you don't know either about?

What? how?

I didn't make this thread id369 [who is known as a huge Nate fan] did and Shaman easily takes the majority

Shaman respect thread: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=424458&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

I just gave my opinion on what I knew, I already stated I truly couldnt debate for either of them.

Originally posted by starlock
Nate for the win 7/10

So how many wins do you give nate then king mungi?
i am sure someone of your reputation would not make a spite thread,how do you see it going

Hey good buddy. I think Nate wins as well

Shaman has shown for a long period he doesn't need his pouch to summon his spells, but with it he has access to the Void:

http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Void

Shaman has so many ways to take Nate out in seconds, while Nate doesn't.

Well I see that making a case and point of superior TP/TK user owning an inferior TP/TK would be sufficient to end the match in an instant isn’t enough.

And I suppose providing quotes and issue numbers aren’t sufficient as well.

So I guess its down to scans. (which is a pain, because I am so lazy in posting them).

Originally posted by King_Mungi
never said he was, but being a HIGH level telepath himself, Nate is not going to own him in a second.

X-Man #59
http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=59074yg.jpg

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Actually you ignored 10 points and are you kidding me? It takes a second, Nate would not attack Shaman and put him down in a second. Anyone who has seen the scans I provided can clearly see this. You ARE ignoring facts, as I mentioned he has Clouding Dust that can leave telepathy users powerless, make you overall powerless with Spell of Bionatural Equilibrium, shields that protect physical and telepathy attacks.
[/B]

Shamans TP shields would be bypassed as mentioned earlier. You can disregard them, but I have made a clear case and point in the diffrence between the two and the nature of a Telepathic battle.

Granted, that if the spell kicks in or connects. Nate would be hampered.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Nate's going to manipulate magic? uh huh. Now your grasping as even the Dust is from the Realm of Dreams. It's pure magic and Nate is not going to manipulate it and soon as when it hits the air it does it's job. Nate cannot stop that. Your credibility just plummeted. Unless you have proof he can manipulate a high level magical user.
[/B]

Originally posted by King_Mungi
and? that's not impressive at all, as Shaman has spells that can do the EXACT same thing. He can locate users, teleport between dimensions, etc. etc. Are those telepaths of the same calibur as Shaman? no.
[/B]

The impressive part was a group of 12 telepaths working together was no ware near enough to stop Nates mind breaching.

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/6248/xman202hf3.jpg
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8615/xman205fr6.jpg

Is Shaman a telepath of Nate calibur. NO.
Can Nate break through Shamans TP barriers? Vary Likely.

Effortlessly Teleports a women to an alternate reality earth. (not between dimensions or within universe itself but across the Multiverse.)
X-Man 66 page 22 & 23
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/9973/22pq0.jpg
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/8641/23yu5.jpg

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Ha! yet you have provided no evidence he could do that at all, while as I mentioned several times Shaman can do so much while Nate does nothing.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

No you havn't at all, you mentioned people who's telepathy wasn't very skilled, and you claimed he could own Shaman in a second, but he couldn't do it against those low level telepath's. While Shaman on the other hand has spells and powers that literally can take Nate out in a second. Your ignoring facts once again. You havn't provided any evidence to back up Nate instantly falling into a time-frezze, or instantly have his powers cancelled out, or oh god you simply are just ignore blant facts.

I acknowledge that, if Shaman connects with his spell’s Nate would be in serious trouble.

But I can not overlook how Nate can easily overwhelm Shaman with his superior TP/TK attacks in an instant.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Actually your logic is flawed, even Galactus doesn't understand Magic and Silver Surfer has shown low level of protection against magic. Magic can basically do anything out of the realm of reality.

So no I simply disagree that magic can beat anything.

Originally posted by id369
Well I see that making a case and point of superior TP/TK user owning an inferior TP/TK would be sufficient to end the match in an instant isn’t enough.

And I suppose providing quotes and issue numbers aren’t sufficient as well.

So I guess its down to scans. (which is a pain, because I am so lazy in posting them).

It's not it's the same as a mixed martial artist going against a fighter with superior ground game. Even though he is outclassed he has some skill allowing him to hang in that regard for an extended periods of time. While Nate has nothing to simply counter Shaman's magic. Nothing.

No, because they can be taken out of context.

I have an entire respect thread laid out of Shaman taking on Elder Gods, absorbing nukes, saving all reality, controlling weather, using telepathy across the universe, etc. etc. etc.

Originally posted by id369

Despite Mr. Fantastic prep time and devices to cancel out direct TK and TP attacks.
Pre Shaman Nates handles the group, by passing the device, and TP’s The Thing.

X-Man #59
http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=59074yg.jpg

and? Shaman is magic, why does technology have to do with it? Shaman has spells that literally could turn Nate back into a normal human being with no powers. Point posting him doing it to Thing? as he has no tp defence. Reed even states his technology was failing so that's why he got through directly in the scan.

Originally posted by id369

No I have not ignored any facts.
He has shields of his own.
Raw Psy shields
TK Shields

Shamans TP shields would be bypassed as mentioned earlier. You can disregard them, but I have made a clear case and point in the diffrence between the two and the nature of a Telepathic battle.

Granted, that if the spell kicks in or connects. Nate would be hampered.

Shaman has any shields that are used for variety of purposes. Here Shaman creates shields that cover miles. Nate's shields do not hold up against Shaman's

1. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d187/A_Flight/w_179_004.jpg
2. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d187/A_Flight/w_179_005.jpg
3. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d187/A_Flight/w_179_006.jpg

No you havn't at all, Shaman is magical and far high level telepathy user and the scans you did show showed Nate not being able to instantly defeat people, while Shaman has spells that can on Nate.

Originally posted by id369

Manipulate it………..as in calling forth the dust and using it no.
Isolate and beat it………possibly.
http://img474.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xman040205cw.jpg

Huh? the dust isn't actually dust. It's pure magic and Nate has NEVER shown any defence against magic. No he couldn't do that, as even Nate admited he could not do that feat again, and the fact that Shaman can instantly like the Great Beasts teleport back.

Originally posted by id369

Individually the gauntlet was not of Shamans Caliber. Together I have no clue.
Shaman is of Jeans Caliber. Nate bested her.
X-Man 25 page 20 & 21. (Pre Shaman Nate - Its in an instant).
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6576/xman02520wh3.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/4198/xman02521fy2.jpg

The impressive part was a group of 12 telepaths working together was no ware near enough to stop Nates mind breaching.

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/6248/xman202hf3.jpg
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8615/xman205fr6.jpg

Is Shaman a telepath of Nate calibur. NO.
Can Nate break through Shamans TP barriers? Vary Likely.

Effortlessly Teleports a women to an alternate reality earth. (not between dimensions or within universe itself but across the Multiverse.)
X-Man 66 page 22 & 23
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/9973/22pq0.jpg
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/8641/23yu5.jpg

Yet Madelyne proved to be to much for Nate at times, and she is Jean's equal (being a clone and all). Yet once again he didn't defeat her instantly, so why would Nate do it to Shaman? Shaman has means not just telepathy to shut down Nate.

and? their not on Shaman's calibur of telepathy or power.

Proof he can easily break Shaman's defences? and in the time where Shaman wouldn't do anything? No not likely at all.

and? Shaman has shown in a split second sending out a myraid of dimensions not just one and insantly teleporting far more people, and far stronger people like Sersi, etc. and they could do nothing to stop it.

Originally posted by id369

I acknowledge that, if Shaman connects with his spell’s Nate would be in serious trouble.

But I can not overlook how Nate can easily overwhelm Shaman with his superior TP/TK attacks in an instant.

Which he can easily do, he can literally stop time in a second

You would be wrong, as none of the matters seeing as people vastly stronger than Nate have failed to defeat Shaman. There is nothing Nate has to simply take Shaman out in seconds, while as I mentioned several times Shaman does. Fact.

Originally posted by id369

Magic is not the end of all forms of science fiction superpowers. Psy weilders are just as adapt and dangerous. The same can be said about Reality Warpers, Power of Cosmic etc…

So no I simply disagree that magic can beat anything.

Actually it is, magic can do things science can't and that's a fact and that's common knowledge. Even the power cosmic has shown weakness to even low level magic.

FYI. I'm going to be gone for the rest of the night and all of tommorow, so won't get back with a reply till tommorow night most likely

Originally posted by King_Mungi
haha and? Shaman has teleported 7 people to the Realm of the Beasts, 5 people to the Land of the Dead, and when Madison Jeffries was drowning in the water he summoned the spirit of air saving Jeffries giving him breathable air. Basically you say feats, Shaman has done.

Teleporting between dimensions is one thing. Teleporting anyware within a single universe is another greater feat.

Teleporting across the universe, sensing disturbance across the multiverse….that’s some long distance telepathy and some serious space/time fabric breaching.

I have not seen or heard of Shaman capable of Multiversal travel yet.

And No I stated feats Nate has done unconsciously, while Shaman was well within conscious.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

No, and the Great Beasts jobbed, plus those were avatars anyways. X-MAN would have destroyed Canada with that little feat against Tundra and would have died himself if Madeylne didn't save him. Then later writer ignored the fact they can simply just teleport back. PIS fights do not count on this board.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/AlphaFlight01-29.jpg

One attempted to absorb Nate. He overloaded himself.
That’s well within reason, Nate raw power is on par with the Phoenix Force and it happens to be unlimited.

Nate then isolated, and threw them into space.
It’s a defeat.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Province>city. Are you seriously implying a city is more than a province. Oh lord. Are you kidding me? He absorbed up a friggin atomic bomb, and with the Void threatened to absorb all of Earth and threaten the universe. Your ignoring facts once again.

If you think he physically can't take those kind of attacks, I suggest you read his fight with Carcass when he saved all reality.

No you don’t get the picture.
Shaman survives if he pull’s out his bag with the sucking in the attack.
Physically Shaman can not tank it.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Yet, those who were inferior to Nate have hung with him and gave him a serious fight and not once did Nate defeat a high level character like Shaman instantly. Unless you have proof, which you have provided none.

Madelyne Prior
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8909/xman02528ti2.jpg

Queen Jean
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8909/xman02528ti2.jpg

Originally posted by King_Mungi

What? no. Without any spells he has defences against tp/tk and his sheilds also protect against telepathy. Shaman has so many defences against Nate he basically makes Nate useless.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

You would be wrong, as Shaman has enhanced reflexes due to magic

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Yet, Nate has to think about attacking and doing it. Plus the fact Nate wouldn't even be owning Shaman in a second, while once again your ignoring Shaman can.

No …………you are underestimating Nate.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
It's not it's the same as a mixed martial artist going against a fighter with superior ground game. Even though he is outclassed he has some skill allowing him to hang in that regard for an extended periods of time. While Nate has nothing to simply counter Shaman's magic. Nothing.

😮 Case and point has bin brought forth.

Aside from Telekinesis and Telepathy, he is still holds raw Psy powers.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

No, because they can be taken out of context.

Issue numbers and direct quotes ware establish.
Maybe seeing the actual scans will serve to establish my credibility.
So no I don’t think I posted any claim outside its context.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
and? Shaman is magic, why does technology have to do with it? Shaman has spells that literally could turn Nate back into a normal human being with no powers. Point posting him doing it to Thing? as he has no tp defence. Reed even states his technology was failing so that's why he got through directly in the scan.

For the record, Mr. Fantastic does not state his technology is failing.
He does not know Nate got a hold of them.
For all he knows, they are simply being overwhelmed
http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/2952/5908hd0.jpg

like Nate stated at the start of the match.
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/8729/5902qf4.jpg

Originally posted by King_Mungi
I have an entire respect thread laid out of Shaman taking on Elder Gods, absorbing nukes, saving all reality, controlling weather, using telepathy across the universe, etc. etc. etc.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Shaman has any shields that are used for variety of purposes. Here Shaman creates shields that cover miles. Nate's shields do not hold up against Shaman's

1. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d187/A_Flight/w_179_004.jpg
2. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d187/A_Flight/w_179_005.jpg
3. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d187/A_Flight/w_179_006.jpg

Um…Nates shield’s have effectively protected him against some one who effortlessly destroys planets in a single blast.
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/5809/xman7215dc2.jpg

In a match I would think the integrity of the shield bests the quantity of a shield.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

No you havn't at all, Shaman is magical and far high level telepathy user and the scans you did show showed Nate not being able to instantly defeat people, while Shaman has spells that can on Nate.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Huh? the dust isn't actually dust. It's pure magic and Nate has NEVER shown any defence against magic. No he couldn't do that, as even Nate admited he could not do that feat again, and the fact that Shaman can instantly like the Great Beasts teleport back.

I don’t see why Nate could not simply teleport Shaman and the Great Beasts down the Multiverse to broken earth.

Like I stated before, Nate has greater teleporting range then Shaman.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Yet Madelyne proved to be to much for Nate at times, and she is Jean's equal (being a clone and all). Yet once again he didn't defeat her instantly, so why would Nate do it to Shaman? Shaman has means not just telepathy to shut down Nate.

Correction. Madelyne proved to be a firce oppoenet for Pre-Shaman Nate at times.
Despite that, Pre Shaman Nate handled Jean and followed up with Madelyne right after.

Shaman Nate wtfpawned Queen Jean.

And Shaman is not Pryor or Jean’s equal in the TP/TK match.

Which backs up my reason why, Nate forcibly overcomes Shaman TP/TK shields.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

and? their not on Shaman's calibur of telepathy or power.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Proof he can easily break Shaman's defences? and in the time where Shaman wouldn't do anything? No not likely at all.

Well scans ware posted how Nate overcomes TP blocks.
And scans of how he is vastly superior in TP.

Know I guess I should follow up how, TK would take down Shaman for the same reasons.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

and? Shaman has shown in a split second sending out a myraid of dimensions not just one and insantly teleporting far more people, and far stronger people like Sersi, etc. and they could do nothing to stop it.

A win via BFR for Shaman is not option.
Due to the fact that Nate can travel through out the Mutliverse.

A win via BFR is an option for Nate.
Due to the fact that Shaman can NOT travel between the mulitverse.

Oh and I posted the scans because you wanted to see them. (the whole not backing up with scans thing.)

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Which he can easily do, he can literally stop time in a second

You would be wrong, as none of the matters seeing as people vastly stronger than Nate have failed to defeat Shaman. There is nothing Nate has to simply take Shaman out in seconds, while as I mentioned several times Shaman does. Fact.

Simply because stronger foes have failed to stop Shaman does not mean Nate is unable to do so.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Actually it is, magic can do things science can't and that's a fact and that's common knowledge. Even the power cosmic has shown weakness to even low level magic.

I am sorry but no. Magic is not the end of all powers. Total control of Reality Warping vs. Total Control over Magic….I think Reality Warping would take it.

As for Nate.
His level of Telepathy + the range + finite control, I would be bold enough to say.
Tier 1 group (non cosmics).

His level of Telekinesis + the range + finite control,
Tier 1 group (non cosmics)

Psy powers - he was stated to be capable of doing what was previously thought impossible.
It’s his psy abilities that Nate has shown that places him above Jesus Cable.

I'll get to one post the other tommorow

Originally posted by id369
Teleporting between dimensions is one thing. Teleporting anyware within a single universe is another greater feat.

Teleporting across the universe, sensing disturbance across the multiverse….that’s some long distance telepathy and some serious space/time fabric breaching.

I have not seen or heard of Shaman capable of Multiversal travel yet.

And No I stated feats Nate has done unconsciously, while Shaman was well within conscious.

Which Shaman can do, good lord how many times have I stated this?

Once again Shaman can do, as I mentioned 20x he saved all reality as he sensed there was a problem and he fixed it.

Neither has Nate, AoA is still part of the 616 universe.

While councious Shaman has a superior feat and he was weakened and he did it with ease. Shaman > Nate in that regard. Fact.

Originally posted by id369

One attempted to absorb Nate. He overloaded himself.
That’s well within reason, Nate raw power is on par with the Phoenix Force and it happens to be unlimited.

Nate then isolated, and threw them into space.
It’s a defeat.

My god didn't I explain this already? wait yes I did. PIS, as what Nate did against Tundra wouldn't have worked as it would have destroyed all of Canada. I even provided the scan stating that, and if you compare Tundra from Alpha Flight #1 you clearly see Tundra was not at what he can do and your simply ignoring the fact Nate would have died from that PIS feat if Madelyne didn't intervene.

Not really as Somon and Kolomaq could have instantly killed him with psychic death, which he used to kill people above Nate. Plus the fact writer ignored they simpley can teleport back. If your actually justifying that I will shut you down with facts from their other apperances.

Originally posted by id369

No you don’t get the picture.
Shaman survives if he pull’s out his bag with the sucking in the attack.
Physically Shaman can not tank it.

Once again as I mentioned IN THIS THREAD, Shaman does not need his pouch to cast spells as shown in the Dr.Strange tie-in during Infinity Crusade, Alpha Flight #115-#120 and Infinity War.

Originally posted by id369

Jean
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6576/xman02520wh3.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/4198/xman02521fy2.jpg

Madelyne Prior
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8909/xman02528ti2.jpg

Queen Jean
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8909/xman02528ti2.jpg

Once again he did not defeat them instantly, while Shaman has means to destroy him in a split second. Like I mentioned several times what's to stop him from stopping time? Nothing.

Originally posted by id369

Um? Yes. With out any spells, his TP/TK shields would prove useless..

Are you kidding me? If Carcass a disciple of Choas and manipulated the Realm of the Dead couldn't why would Nate? that's right he wouldn't.

Originally posted by id369

As to Nate having his phyicial traits augmented thanks Psy abilities.
No he doesn't I have read most of his series and has never shown that or was it ever stated.

[QUOTE=8823459]Originally posted by id369
[B]
No …………you are underestimating Nate.

Actually I;m not, Shaman has shown multiple times to have abilities that can defeat even people above Nate in a split second. Your the one ignoring facts.

Originally posted by id369
😮 Case and point has bin brought forth.

Aside from Telekinesis and Telepathy, he is still holds raw Psy powers.

Which as noted mean nothing to Shaman as he has many things not just one that can easily counter it as mentioned before.

Originally posted by id369

Issue numbers and direct quotes ware establish.
Maybe seeing the actual scans will serve to establish my credibility.
So no I don’t think I posted any claim outside its context.

Well you mentioned Nate could do what he did against Somon and Kolomaq, but ignored to mention he even admited he can't do it again, and you didn't mention even in the impossible feat with Tundra he would have died.

Originally posted by id369

I am not making a case and point over technology and magic.
I was making a case and point of TP/TK and technology from a respectable and popular scientist.
And how ge by-passed them or overcome them.

For the record, Mr. Fantastic does not state his technology is failing.
He does not know Nate got a hold of them.
For all he knows, they are simply being overwhelmed
http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/2952/5908hd0.jpg

like Nate stated at the start of the match.
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/8729/5902qf4.jpg

Yet they have no relevance to Shaman, as a) the scans you showed were against people vastly inferior to Shaman b) He didn't own any of them instantly, which he would have to do against Shaman to surive.

No they wouldn't you have not made an arguement on how they would be bypassed. Especially magical sheilds that can block telepathy.

What he says it right here in the scan you already posted it was failing:
http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=59074yg.jpg

Originally posted by id369

I help put together Nate’s respect thread. (maybe I am not so lazy).

Yes I have read it and a few things were taken out of context or not fully explained.

Originally posted by id369

Um…Nates shield’s have effectively protected him against some one who effortlessly destroys planets in a single blast.
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/5809/xman7215dc2.jpg

In a match I would think the integrity of the shield bests the quantity of a shield.

.....like I mentioned earlier, Shaman has artifacts that make the universe itself seem to pop out of existance and defeated an Elder God. Universe popping feat > Planteary blast, and even his blasts didn't destroy whole planets.

Shaman has shileds that protect from Elder Gods attacks...case for Shaman.

Originally posted by id369

Um yes I did show Pre Shaman Nate deciding to end the match when he became serious........rather quickly.

No you didn't AT ALL, while I have provided in a split second SHaman can destroy Nate in seconds, which of course you simply ignore. My god, this is getting ridiculous.

Originally posted by id369

No Pis or Jobbing.
He did a variation of what was done before in a prior match.
So I would not take his quote in direct context.

I don’t see why Nate could not simply teleport Shaman and the Great Beasts down the Multiverse to broken earth.

Like I stated before, Nate has greater teleporting range then Shaman.

No PIS, then that fight is completly ignored as went against contunity from dozens of comics with the Great Beasts. AS I MENTIONED EARLIER. UUUUUUUUUUHHHH!!!! He also passed out from performing the feat and was supercharged thanks to Madelyne giving him power after the PIS Tundra fight.

Elder Gods had to create a spell that banished the Great Beasts, if you actually implying you think Nate Grey is on par with the Gods of the Artic you have another thing coming. Also the fact Tundra could create a magical vortex as he did against the Gods of the Artic and sent it right back to them.

Actually he doesn't, Shaman can teleport anywhere, even in the past or where-ever he wants.

Originally posted by id369

Correction. Madelyne proved to be a firce oppoenet for Pre-Shaman Nate at times.
Despite that, Pre Shaman Nate handled Jean and followed up with Madelyne right after.

Shaman Nate wtfpawned Queen Jean.

And Shaman is not Pryor or Jean’s equal in the TP/TK match.

Which backs up my reason why, Nate forcibly overcomes Shaman TP/TK shields. .

Which once again as I mentioned [of course ignored yet again] not instantly, while Shaman has attacks that can defeat Nate...INSTANTLY!

He actually is up there, I would not put him far off.

You would be incorrect, as first off magic as Nate has never overcome magic and people stronger than him have not simply overcome magic in that regard.

Originally posted by id369
Well scans ware posted how Nate overcomes TP blocks.
And scans of how he is vastly superior in TP.

Know I guess I should follow up how, TK would take down Shaman for the same reasons.

Against inferior oppoents, plus as I MENTIONED ALSO Shaman has tp blocks and shields AS WELL. How is he vastly superior? as contacting his daughter on Earth when he was in a different galaxy right threw shows he is not to be disregarded in TP.

Originally posted by id369

A win via BFR for Shaman is not option.
Due to the fact that Nate can travel through out the Mutliverse.

A win via BFR is an option for Nate.
Due to the fact that Shaman can NOT travel between the mulitverse.

Oh and I posted the scans because you wanted to see them. (the whole not backing up with scans thing.)

If you implying he could escape the Void you would be wrong, nothing can escape the mouth of the pouch without Shaman's aid, plus anyone who actually looks inside the Void instantly goes insane. Only Talisman is immune, Nate would not be protected.

No it isn't, Shaman can do the exact same thing. Uuuuuh. Plus the fact your implying he can do it with ease, yet he has never done it like that.

Originally posted by id369

As to Nate can stop Neurological functions via TK.

Simply because stronger foes have failed to stop Shaman does not mean Nate is unable to do so.

My god, all this has already been discussed which won't work against Shaman.

Actually it does, when Carcass was reality manipulating him and the rest of Alpha Flight in a thought he reformed them back to their normal selves and revived himself after he was aged into an older man.

Originally posted by id369

I am sorry but no. Magic is not the end of all powers. Total control of Reality Warping vs. Total Control over Magic….I think Reality Warping would take it.

As for Nate.
His level of Telepathy + the range + finite control, I would be bold enough to say.
Tier 1 group (non cosmics).

His level of Telekinesis + the range + finite control,
Tier 1 group (non cosmics)

Psy powers - he was stated to be capable of doing what was previously thought impossible.
It’s his psy abilities that Nate has shown that places him above Jesus Cable.

Nate does not have reality warping, and magic has the ability to do something in that regard as shown with Nabu, Shazam, Spectre of course and various others. Even Scarlet Witch had her choas magic.

All that is meaningless who with a word can instantly freeze time, Nate has not shown EVER to instantly own someone of Shaman's calibur like that. That's a fact.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
I'll get to one post the other tommorow

Which Shaman can do, good lord how many times have I stated this?

Once again Shaman can do, as I mentioned 20x he saved all reality as he sensed there was a problem and he fixed it.

I was establishing the teleporting range among Micheal and Nate.
Micheal from the scans posted, at best Micheal can teleport within the 616 universe.

While Nate has breached the 616 reality, and teleported from 616 to 611, 612, broken Earth, etc…

Simply put. Nate has teleported people effortlessly to farther range, in critical conditions.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Neither has Nate, AoA is still part of the 616 universe.

I have never made a case and point over AoA time line.
And Yes Nate teleports from Universe to Universe among different reality.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

While councious Shaman has a superior feat and he was weakened and he did it with ease. Shaman > Nate in that regard. Fact.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

My god didn't I explain this already? wait yes I did. PIS, as what Nate did against Tundra wouldn't have worked as it would have destroyed all of Canada. I even provided the scan stating that, and if you compare Tundra from Alpha Flight #1 you clearly see Tundra was not at what he can do and your simply ignoring the fact Nate would have died from that PIS feat if Madelyne didn't intervene.

Tundra never attempted to absorb Vindicator. With Nate he did, negative consequential to its soundings ware not establish in any of the scans you provided.
All evidence points out that Tundra would have benefited from absorbing Nates power. Yet he could not handle it and destroyed himself.

The PIS I do find in this comic issue is Nate and his unlimited power supply. He should not have bin exhausted from its power. I could understand physically strained and physically exhausted. But not its raw power.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Not really as Somon and Kolomaq could have instantly killed him with psychic death, which he used to kill people above Nate. Plus the fact writer ignored they simpley can teleport back. If your actually justifying that I will shut you down with facts from their other apperances.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Once again as I mentioned IN THIS THREAD, Shaman does not need his pouch to cast spells as shown in the Dr.Strange tie-in during Infinity Crusade, Alpha Flight #115-#120 and Infinity War.

You are still disregarding my comment.
Shaman not accessing his spells can not take any direct hit from Nate.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Once again he did not defeat them instantly, while Shaman has means to destroy him in a split second. Like I mentioned several times what's to stop him from stopping time? Nothing.

*Even as the boy speaks (Nate), the rescued pilot takes advantage (Jean) of the opportunity to slip behind Madelyne Pryor-----Psi Screened her attackers senses….until she lashes back with all shit Got (Jean).

*And in the Case of this particular Telepath, Theis Particular….. Psionic Ambush-----That would well prove more then enough…..If Nate Grey were not fast, and furious enough to intercept her (Jean) Telekinetic assault with his own.

*Returning It with all he’s Got.*

That was Pre-Shaman Nate, an Alpha level Mutant taking on an Omega Level Mutant who also happens to be one with the Phoenix Force.

She was overwhelmed and taken out in an instant, despite her pre-emptive attack.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Are you kidding me? If Carcass a disciple of Choas and manipulated the Realm of the Dead couldn't why would Nate? that's right he wouldn't.

Because Nate has done so against TK/TP character of his caliber. Micheal in not of their caliber.

What have you posted so far……long distance communicating, something Xavier (who is also Nates inferior) has done so. Other then that, you have shown nothing from finite control (example: locating 12 telepaths among 10 million people - ) or its enforcing ways (Example: Mind controlling despite tech being applied, linking you to your alternate reality self’s across the entire Multiverse).

Hell I am curios to know, what Micheal can do with spell augmented Telepathy and Telekinesis. Because I simply doubt it will augmented high enough to match up Shaman Nate.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Actually I;m not, Shaman has shown multiple times to have abilities that can defeat even people above Nate in a split second. Your the one ignoring facts.

edit - never mind 😠

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I'm enjoying the show. It's pretty rare to see someone challenge Mungi on AF.
tv_happy Even if they are a 2nd-rate team. 😆 jk Mungi.

I am happy to know that at least one person finds this debate amusing.

I find it amusing…battle of the Shamans is the theme.
But Shamans in different perspective, talents, and abilities.

Originally posted by id369
I was establishing the teleporting range among Micheal and Nate.
Micheal from the scans posted, at best Micheal can teleport within the 616 universe.

While Nate has breached the 616 reality, and teleported from 616 to 611, 612, broken Earth, etc…

Simply put. Nate has teleported people effortlessly to farther range, in critical conditions.

Actually Shaman has no limits established, as Bryne stated in an interivew.

Marvel Age #2: "If you want to sum it up . . . he's Dr. Strange--but he does it with potions and herbs and little dolls and stuff, instead of just doing it with the power of his mind, the way Strange does. This possibly gives Shaman a slight advantage, I don't know. If he had the tools at hand, he can make just about anything. I don't know if Strange has that kind of power over the physical world."

Your simply implying Shaman has a limit, but has never showed ANY.

What? Shaman has never struggled ever to teleport ANYWHERE. Shaman has been to dimensions Nate has no means of entering.

Originally posted by id369
I have never made a case and point over AoA time line.
And Yes Nate teleports from Universe to Universe among different reality.

Uuuummm...so has Shaman, he's been to over 5 different universes.

Originally posted by id369

Not really. In a BFR match, Nate takes this.
Micheal can attempt to BFR Nate any ware within the 616 reality. And Nate would come back.
On the contrary, Nate could BFR Micheal to what ever 6XX reality…and Micheal would stay put.

haha what? How is Nate going to BFR remove a person that had no limit to travel anywhere? Uh huh, come on now your being foolish.

Why would he stay put, you make many claims but back nothing.

Originally posted by id369

Actully no. You are bending the scans to fit your comment
Granted that Tundra had a match with both Vindicator and Nate.

Tundra never attempted to absorb Vindicator. With Nate he did, negative consequential to its soundings ware not establish in any of the scans you provided.
All evidence points out that Tundra would have benefited from absorbing Nates power. Yet he could not handle it and destroyed himself.

The PIS I do find in this comic issue is Nate and his unlimited power supply. He should not have bin exhausted from its power. I could understand physically strained and physically exhausted. But not its raw power.

Tundra doesn't absorb energy that's not what he does and who he is, Nate used several energy attacks not including his overcharge, and nothing happened at all to the land. His body was destroyed and he reformed a feat that previous contunity would have destroyed Canada. With a single step Tundra can grow hundreds of feet, yet did you see that at all? My god, if Tundra can send back Elder God energies with ease, you honestly think Nate can without PIS? My god. Your actually trying to put Nate on Elder God status, haha.

Actually no, if you actually read the Great Beasts other apperances you would know that is not what they are and what they do. I guess it takes more than just reading X-Man right?

haha wow, Nate defeating Elder Gods the way he did isn't PIS, but him nearly dying from it is? haha, and your credibility keeps plummeting.

Originally posted by id369

If you want to point out how, isolating the gravity around Somon and Kolomaq would not be possible.
The only way of doing so is to provide, the exact same feat ware it failed.

or the fact Nate himself stated he can't do it again, and was given energy by Madelyne to battle them. Oh my oh my.

Originally posted by id369
You are still disregarding my comment.
Shaman not accessing his spells can not take any direct hit from Nate.

Uuuuh...Shaman doesn't have to access his spells he has a natural defence, he even thought and healed himself from reality manipulation and his team members with a thought not a spell. Plus the fact without any spells Shaman still has all I have mentioned earlier.

Originally posted by id369

*Even as the boy speaks (Nate), the rescued pilot takes advantage (Jean) of the opportunity to slip behind Madelyne Pryor-----Psi Screened her attackers senses….until she lashes back with all shit Got (Jean).

*And in the Case of this particular Telepath, Theis Particular….. Psionic Ambush-----That would well prove more then enough…..If Nate Grey were not fast, and furious enough to intercept her (Jean) Telekinetic assault with his own.

*Returning It with all he’s Got.*

That was Pre-Shaman Nate, an Alpha level Mutant taking on an Omega Level Mutant who also happens to be one with the Phoenix Force.

She was overwhelmed and taken out in an instant, despite her pre-emptive attack.

Once again you ignore the fact he did not do it instantly, while Shaman has spells without using his pouch that can destroy Nate in seconds. It's falling on deaf ears, you provide even scans that go with my point as Nate has never defeated ANYONE like their level instantly, while Shaman in a split second says "shush" it's over.

Originally posted by id369

Because Nate has done so against TK/TP character of his caliber. Micheal in not of their caliber.

What have you posted so far……long distance communicating, something Xavier (who is also Nates inferior) has done so. Other then that, you have shown nothing from finite control (example: locating 12 telepaths among 10 million people - ) or its enforcing ways (Example: Mind controlling despite tech being applied, linking you to your alternate reality self’s across the entire Multiverse).

Hell I am curios to know, what Micheal can do with spell augmented Telepathy and Telekinesis. Because I simply doubt it will augmented high enough to match up Shaman Nate.

Incorrect as I mentioned I have most of X-Man's run and he has never done it instantly. NEVER!

Actually Xavier can't do that on Earth due to Magneto's manipulation, and also I have already posted examples and stated other instances where Shaman has high level tp. Once again as I seem to not getting though, Shaman is still skilled enough in tp to fend X-Men off in that regard not like he would have to as Nate cannot defeat Shaman in the same amount of time Shaman can defeat Nate and that's a fact. Or you going to simply ignore that again?

What? what are you talking about? Shaman doesn't need spells to augment his tp or tk. He has those abilities without casting spells. Well considering Shaman as noted earlier can practically do anything you would be wrong in that assumption.

Originally posted by id369

I have acknowledged there are spells and abilities Micheal can cast that Nate would not be able to defend himself against.

Such as time freeze, which ends the match instantly.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Actually Shaman has no limits established, as Bryne stated in an interivew.

Marvel Age #2: "If you want to sum it up . . . he's Dr. Strange--but he does it with potions and herbs and little dolls and stuff, instead of just doing it with the power of his mind, the way Strange does. This possibly gives Shaman a slight advantage, I don't know. If he had the tools at hand, he can make just about anything. I don't know if Strange has that kind of power over the physical world."

Your simply implying Shaman has a limit, but has never showed ANY.

What? Shaman has never struggled ever to teleport ANYWHERE. Shaman has been to dimensions Nate has no means of entering.

No I am stating my claim from the posts and scans you have provided.

Simply put, so far I have provided scans with feats leading to Multiversal travel. You have provided what so far?….inter dimensional travel and a narration.

Ok I can do the same.

*In X-Man #64, the narration describes Nate Grey as the following: "Mutant. Telepath. Shaman. Intermediary between powers. The Guardian of reality's door."*

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Uuuummm...so has Shaman, he's been to over 5 different universes.

You have not showed scans of such feats.
Simply because this is being mentioned after I posted Nates ability to crossover the Multiverse.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
[B]
haha what? How is Nate going to BFR remove a person that had no limit to travel anywhere? Uh huh, come on now your being foolish.

Why would he stay put, you make many claims but back nothing.

The contrary. I have posted Nates ability to crossover/teleport through out the Multiverse.
Yet you are not backing up with any evidence of Micheals ability to do the same. Simply using narration does not cut it.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Tundra doesn't absorb energy that's not what he does and who he is, Nate used several energy attacks not including his overcharge, and nothing happened at all to the land. His body was destroyed and he reformed a feat that previous contunity would have destroyed Canada. With a single step Tundra can grow hundreds of feet, yet did you see that at all? My god, if Tundra can send back Elder God energies with ease, you honestly think Nate can without PIS? My god. Your actually trying to put Nate on Elder God status, haha.

If Tundray is capable of channeling energy, its not outside the question to absorb energy.

And No I am not putting Nate on the level of the Elder Gods. Simply the Raw energy he carries.
Its comparable to the Phoenix Force. That’s a pretty high level of power if you ask me.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

haha wow, Nate defeating Elder Gods the way he did isn't PIS, but him nearly dying from it is? haha, and your credibility keeps plummeting.

And Yes PIS was present for Nate. He should not be deing because he is low on energy. Such thing is not possible for some one with unlimited energy. But dieng from physical exhaustion is (that would have made more sense).

My credibility…only to you. But I could the say the same for prissy arguments.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Actually no, if you actually read the Great Beasts other apperances you would know that is not what they are and what they do. I guess it takes more than just reading X-Man right?

Originally posted by King_Mungi

or the fact Nate himself stated he can't do it again, and was given energy by Madelyne to battle them. Oh my oh my.

True an inexperienced, head strong Nate stated it.
While no conclusive or actual reason why he shouldn’t be able to do so.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Uuuuh...Shaman doesn't have to access his spells he has a natural defence, he even thought and healed himself from reality manipulation and his team members with a thought not a spell. Plus the fact without any spells Shaman still has all I have mentioned earlier.

Ah I see. So if Nate decides to pop his head open with a TK blow. Micheal would be able to heal himself with a thought. >_> ( thus credibility plummets farther).

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Once again you ignore the fact he did not do it instantly, while Shaman has spells without using his pouch that can destroy Nate in seconds. It's falling on deaf ears, you provide even scans that go with my point as Nate has never defeated ANYONE like their level instantly, while Shaman in a split second says "shush" it's over.

Nate overcoming Jean in the mist of an attck >>>>>>>reaching out for his pouch in seconds.

Overcoming Jean in the mist of a attack >>>>>>>>>>Saying Sussh

(Credibility……lowering >_>😉

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Incorrect as I mentioned I have most of X-Man's run and he has never done it instantly. NEVER!

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Actually Xavier can't do that on Earth due to Magneto's manipulation, and also I have already posted examples and stated other instances where Shaman has high level tp. Once again as I seem to not getting though, Shaman is still skilled enough in tp to fend X-Men off in that regard not like he would have to as Nate cannot defeat Shaman in the same amount of time Shaman can defeat Nate and that's a fact. Or you going to simply ignore that again?

No not really and I posted out why. What have you responded with 2 measly scans of telepathic communication’s and weightless claims.

(Credibility…um yea >_>😉

Originally posted by King_Mungi

What? what are you talking about? Shaman doesn't need spells to augment his tp or tk. He has those abilities without casting spells. Well considering Shaman as noted earlier can practically do anything you would be wrong in that assumption.

Ah ok. I was under the impression he could augment his TP/TK via spell casting.
Never mind.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Such as time freeze, which ends the match instantly.

You know what were basically going in circles, nothing has changed. Clearly I think a "shush" is easily sufficient to end this match you don't. I say we agree to disagree as I don't see it ending any time soon.

I havn't read your above message as I have gotten far to frustrated

Round 2.

Dark X-Men feat’s are a go!

Originally posted by "Id"
Round 2.

Dark X-Men feat’s are a go!

Nate, he can step in between time after his upgrade.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Actually Shaman has no limits established, as Bryne stated in an interivew.

Marvel Age #2: "If you want to sum it up . . . he's Dr. Strange--but he does it with potions and herbs and little dolls and stuff, instead of just doing it with the power of his mind, the way Strange does. This possibly gives Shaman a slight advantage, I don't know. If he had the tools at hand, he can make just about anything. I don't know if Strange has that kind of power over the physical world."

So he's like Strange, but has to use tools instead of just his mind, but he may be stronger than Strange because he uses tool? wtf