Imperial Remnant vs. Infinite Empire

Aachen was a part of the Westwall. The city nestled within two belts of bunkers and obstacles, one to the west of the city and the other to the east. The Aachen sector was, in fact, one of the most heavily fortified portions of the Westwall. Aachen itself, however, was unfortified. It had little to commend it as a battleground from either the German or the American perspective. As a defensive position, Aachen was flawed by the fact that it lay in a depression with higher ground on all sides. From the American point of view, Aachen offered little as an objective. The existing road net made it perfectly feasible to bypass the urban area altogether. Although Aachen was home to some industry and coal mining, it was not vital to the German war effort. Moreover, heavy Allied air raids had already damaged or destroyed half of its buildings. In light of what eventually occurred, it seems ironic that on the day VII Corps entered Germany, the Americans intended to bypass Aachen, and the German commander within Aachen intended, apparently, to yield the city without a fight.

Adolf Hitler had other ideas. He had no intention of yielding a German city to the enemy.

Fortunately for the Americans, the defense of downtown Aachen was also a secondary priority for the Germans, who were more concerned with eliminating the penetrations of the Westwall north and south of town. The garrison of Aachen proper consisted primarily of the 246th Volksgrenadier Division, minus 4 of its 7 infantry battalions. Volksgrenadier divisions, which first appeared in the German order of battle in the autumn of 1944, were hastily constituted formations composed largely of survivors from other divisions wrecked in battle. These divisions lacked a full complement of artillery, but were abundantly provided with automatic weapons as compensation. The commander of the 246th Volksgrenadier was Colonel Gerhard Wilck. To support his infantry, Wilck had five Panzer IV medium tanks armed with high-velocity 75mm guns, and some artillery pieces ranging in caliber from 75mm to 150mm. Perhaps the most dangerous weapons in Wilck's arsenal were panzerfausts.

Wilck assumed command in Aachen on 12 October, one day before the American assault on the city began. He established his headquarters in the luxurious Hotel Quellenhof, located in the resort district on the north side of town. Yet, his force numbered only some 5,000 troops of uneven quality, exclusive of reinforcements that would become available during the fight.

ALTHOUGH HE DID NOT KNOW IT, WILCK'S FORCE OUTNUMBERED BY A RATIO OF THREE OR FOUR TO ONE THE AMERICANS WHO WOULD LAUNCH THE ATTACK ON AACHEN (emph Mine). Moreover, the two battalions of the 1st Infantry Division given the task of reducing Aachen had no experience in urban operations. At best, they had received word-of-mouth accounts of urban fighting conducted by other units, and that news was far from reassuring.

The closest that the relevant field manuals came to an urban operations doctrine was a few pages on fighting in towns and villages. They recommended enveloping the town, or avoiding it altogether.

One might argue that the Army's published doctrine was sound in general principle, but clearly the American troops assaulting Aachen would have to work out the details for themselves. One factor working in the Americans' favor was that the force given the mission was among the most experienced units in the U.S. Army. The 1st Infantry Division's 26th Infantry Regiment, commanded by Colonel John F.R. Seitz, had been in action since the invasion of North Africa in November 1942. Two of the regiment's three battalions were available for the reduction of Aachen--the 2nd, commanded by Lieutenant Colonel Derrill M. Daniel, and the 3rd, under Lieutenant Colonel John T. Corley. Expecting that the German defenses in Aachen would be oriented to the south, where American forces had been in position for a month, the commander of the 1st Infantry Division, Major General Clarence R. Huebner, directed the two assault battalions to swing around to the east and attack the city along an east-west axis. The 1106th Engineer Combat Group, consisting of two battalions, received the mission of holding the perimeter on the southern side of Aachen while the attack crossed its front.

Col. Seitz assigned to the 2/26 the mission of clearing the heart of downtown Aachen. On its right, the 3/26 was designated the main effort, its objectives being the hills on the north side of the city, Salvatorberg and Lousberg.

From 8 to 12 October, the two assault battalions worked their way up to jump-off positions east and southeast of Aachen, taking the opportunity to practice tactics and techniques of urban fighting as they advanced. By nightfall of 12 October, the 2/26 on the left had drawn up to the foot of the railroad embankment of the Aachen-Cologne railway. To its right, the 3/26 occupied its line of departure in the industrial area just east of Aachen proper.

The 2/26, given the mission of clearing the densest part of the old city, conducted a methodical, specialized urban operation. His preparations began with a reconfiguration of his battalion that integrated the combat arms at the small unit level. Each rifle company became a task force. In addition to the company's three organic rifle platoons and weapons platoon (light machine guns and 60mm mortars), Daniel added three tanks or tank destroyers, which the company then assigned down to the rifle platoons. Daniel further augmented each of the rifle companies with two 57mm antitank guns, drawn from the regimental antitank company, two bazooka teams, one flamethrower, and two heavy machine guns.

Each of the 2/26's companies was assigned a zone of advance, within which each platoon, with its accompanying tank or tank destroyer, was assigned a specific street to clear. Using the detailed maps at his disposal, Daniel set up a "measles system" in which all intersections and prominent buildings were numbered to speed up communication and ensure coordination among the battalion's elements. Offensive operations halted at nightfall along designated phase lines (major streets) to avoid the confusion and loss of observation inherent in night combat.

Logistics posed a special set of problems for the 2/26. Anticipating high expenditures of ammunition, Daniel improvised a mobile battalion ammunition dump that could keep pace with the advancing companies. To facilitate medical evacuation in the rubble-filled streets, Daniel obtained some M29 cargo carriers, known as "Weasels."

On 14 October, the 2/26 began its methodical advance through Aachen, though with one eye over its shoulder. Due to the intensity of German counterattacks against the forces still attempting to complete the encirclement, the 26th was warned to be ready to suspend its advance and go over to the defense. Despite this distraction, Daniel put all three of his companies on line and moved into the city.

With a front of some 2,000 yards (two to four times the frontage prescribed by doctrine) and no reserve, the 2/26 relied upon patience, thoroughness, and firepower to maintain its advance. The battalion's catchphrase for this operation was "Knock 'em all down." There was no attempt to avoid collateral damage; in fact, the troops displayed a degree of enthusiasm in wrecking a German city. More pragmatically, Daniel reasoned that German soldiers could not be expected to fight effectively with buildings falling down around their ears. Stated generally, Daniel's procedure was to use all available firepower to pin down the defenders and chase them into cellars, where the infantry closed with and eliminated them with bayonet and grenade.

"Knock 'em all down" started with artillery fire. Heavy artillery struck German lines of communication to isolate the battle area. Medium artillery and mortars fired across the front itself. Artillerymen used delayed fuses to ensure that rounds penetrated buildings before exploding. Division and corps artillery was arrayed south of the city, which allowed artillery to fire parallel to the front of troops fighting in the city. With the danger of short rounds falling on American troops thus minimized, artillerymen were able to adjust fires within yards of the infantry lines. However, since the encirclement battle still raged, the forces fighting in Aachen could not count upon artillery support all the time.

Tanks and tank destroyers assigned to the platoons were, on the other hand, an ever-present source of mobile firepower. The American troops, acutely aware of the dangers posed by German panzerfausts in close-quarters fighting, developed combined arms tactics in which infantry protected the armor from panzerfausts while the armor engaged strongpoints that impeded the infantry. Platoons generally kept their armor one street back from the street being cleared. The tank or tank destroyer would nose cautiously around the corner and pour fire into a specific building. Then, the infantry would assault the building, whereupon the armor would shift fire to the next in line. Once the block had been systematically cleared, all available weapons would fire into every possible panzerfaust firing position while the armor dashed forward into the street just cleared.

As for the infantry, the rifle platoons stayed out of the streets as much as possible. Heavy machine guns maintained steady fire up the streets along the axis of advance, thus impeding German lateral movements, while the American infantry moved from building to building by blowing holes through adjoining walls with bazookas and demolition charges. The preferred mode of clearing a building was to fight from the top down, with grenades being the weapon of choice.

AFTERMATH:

The 2/26 eliminated every German position as it was encountered, intentionally bypassing none.

As fighting progressed on 14 October, the 2/26 received augmentation from VII Corps in the form of a self-propelled 155mm gun. (The 3/26 was likewise reinforced on this date.) This weapon fired a 95-pound armor-piercing projectile at a muzzle velocity of 2,800 feet per second — sufficient kinetic energy to penetrate an entire block of buildings.

The 2/26 continued its methodical advance on 15 October. It achieved a linkup with the 3/26, thus securing its right flank.

On the battalion's left flank, the 1106th Engineer pivoted its right wing forward from its position south of the city to conform with the 2/26.

The 2/26 continued its methodical advance on 17 and 18 October. The 1106th Engineer Group continued to displace forward to cover the battalion's flank. Durring this period, the 2/26 found itself taking fire from the rear, despite all its precautions to assure that no Germans were bypassed. After a careful search, the Americans discovered that the fire was coming from a church steeple that had been reinforced with concrete, making it a fortified observation post. This position proved to be impervious to both small arms and 75mm tank destroyer fire, whereupon Daniel again called upon his 155mm artillery piece. One shot from the 155 brought the entire structure crashing to the ground.This use of a 155mm gun as an anti-sniper weapon is perhaps the epitome of "Knock 'em all down."

On 20 October, the battalion's right wing became embroiled in a difficult battle for the Technical School. Conversely, resistance faded on the left as the battalion neared the western edge of the city. The Technical School fell on 21 October, yielding several hundred prisoners. This was the last organized resistance encountered by the 2/26. The battalion crossed a railway embankment at the western edge of the city. It was securing the ground beyond when word arrived that the German commander, Col. Wilck, had surrendered to the 3/26.

Whereas the actions of the 2/26 in Aachen were largely in the nature of a clearing operation against poorly-organized defenders, the 3/26 experienced something more like a pitched battle. Its battlefield environment was also different. Unlike the dense urban terrain that confronted the 2/26, the 3/26 first encountered an industrial area, and then advanced through the parks and resorts that covered the hills on the north side of town. Control of those hills, which overlooked the city center, was key to the possession of Aachen, a fact which both sides recognized. Col. Wilck placed the best of his defenders in the path of the 3/26.

The 3/26 launched its attack on 13 October through factories and apartment houses on the northeast side of Aachen. Although its front was considerably narrower than that of the 2/26, the 3/26 advanced with both flanks open. After progressing steadily along Juelicher Strasse for several hours, the battalion was halted by cannon fire that drove the infantry out of the street, exposing two tanks to panzerfaust fire.

By the end of the day, elements of the battalion advanced to the edge of Farwick Park, only a few blocks from Wilck's headquarters in the Hotel Quellenhof. In response, Wilck moved his headquarters to an air raid bunker 1,200 yards west of the Hotel. That evening, Wilck received the only reinforcements that would come his way during the battle. SS Battalion Rink, a task force of infantry and assault guns, reached Wilck's position after fighting its way past the U.S. 30th Infantry Division. Although this force was rather badly depleted, as an SS unit it was manned with the best, most fanatical personnel that Germany had to offer. Wilck assigned this battalion the task of stopping the 3/26.

The next day started out well for the 3/26. The battalion achieved a linkup with the 2/26 on its left, securing one flank. The attack against Farwick Park made steady progress. Advancing across once-luxurious lawns and gardens, the 3/26 reached the vicinity of the Hotel Quellenhof, Wilck's old headquarters, when SS Battalion Rink counterattacked in force. The counterattack drove the Americans back out of Farwick Park in disarray. Not until 1700 did the 3/26 stop the German attack and stabilize its lines.

Following this setback, the 3/26 went on the defensive for two days. The American forces outside the city completed their encirclement on 16 October, in the face of heavy German counterattacks. The 3/26 used the pause to lick its wounds and await reinforcements from VII Corps. On the German side, Wilck knew that the 4,392 effectives at his disposal on 16 October were not likely to be reinforced.

The 3/26 resumed offensive operations on 18 October.

The end came on 21 October, when elements of the 3/26 closed in on an air raid bunker south of Lousberg, unaware that it was Wilck's headquarters. Lt. Col. Corley, the battalion commander, dispatched his attached 155mm self-propelled gun to reduce the position. Before the gun could open fire, Wilck sent out a white flag in the hands of some American prisoners who were being held in the bunker. The surrender of the Aachen garrison took effect at 1205.

Nuff said about that.

And, countrary to your mentions, there were indeed battles I mentioned were the Western Allies fought against Numerically superior Axis forces and won.

East Africa, Operation Compass, Operation Torch, the battle of Southern France. All these and anything else I can remember will be added if you wish to continue this rather enjoyable debate.

And to claim that Germany was "head over shoulders above most of the world," Darth Sexy, this is true maybe for 1939-1940, but then look at the rest of the world's doctrine. The Western Allies were preparing for Trench Warfare, the Poles and Eastern-Central European Republics were likewise (see the Sudeten Fixed defenses), and for the Soviets? Two Words: Grigory Krulik, google it, you will laugh.

In such an atmosphere it is easy to see how the Blitzkreig doctrine would be indeed " head over shoulders above" the rest of the world. But then again, it is easy to be the tallest thing in the open desert.

In addition, Hitler becoming very demanding about the military did indeed aid in it's demise (the utter stupidity of trying to hold Stalingrad or the Kerch Peninsula is utter madness), but Hitler has frequently been blamed for many mishaps in the military that were indeed the fault of the German Command themselves. This is evident in cases such as the decision to concentrate disproportionate amounts of forces against Bastogne during the Bulge, as well as other mishaps that I will try to remember.

The fact remains that, to this day, people look through rose-colored glasses about the supposed quality of Nazi Germany's military power, but they fail to notice that German forces in WWII were not "Uber troops who outfought but were overrun by superior numbers." The superior numbers, though they doubtless had an effect, would have been useless without good planning, equipment, and organization.

To this day, disturbingly high numbers of people, including many staunch Anti-Fascists, believe that Germany outfought all her opponents only to succumb to overwhelming manpower. This is false. Germany did outfight many of her foes, but the Western Allies proved even in the disasterous year of 1940 that they could best the Germans in Battle but also in training, equipment, planning, and doctrine.

The Soviets adopted the same a few years later. The fact remains that the Germans were overall both outfought and outhought fair and square both in the West and the East, but the romantic view of things like Rommel leading his tanks on forlorn hopes in the desert blots out the genius of people like Montgomery, Auchenleck, Wavell, and O'Connor, who managed to tear up more than a few of Rommel's tanks, husband their resources, and eventually best Rommel in a duel of the tacticians and strategists.

The fact remains that Germany only fell to overwhelming numbers because it could not, when all is said and done, outhink and outfight it's opponents when they did NOT have overwhelming numbers. And for that they can only blame themselves for not being as smart as the Allies were in husbanding their resources carefully until it was too late.

This thread is not about who had greater tactics, technology, or forces between Germany, Russia, and the Allies.

Stay on topic.

Yes, Se7in, just making a final point. Like I said, in Remnant VS Revan's Sith, it would be a war of attrition, and I do believe that, since Revan is a far better General then Paelleon, he could come on top, not the least because the Remnant probably does not have the slightest clue where they are and because Revan can wear their force down piecemeal with the military produced by the Star Forge.

No, I understand why you all were having that debate given it's relevance, and it's good to see people actually stating facts and debating instead of just throwing around insults and claiming "Where's your source?"

However, let's at least stay on topic as to why either side would win, not whose advantage is greater.

While I agree Revan is a far better General, you can't ignore the fact that the Remnant possesses weapons that Revan could not possibly account for.

You say Paelleon and the Remnant won't know where they are, but Revan has NO idea what kind of firepower and armor he's going up against.

If we were to assume that Revan was allowed unlimited ships, even with the Empire having VASTLY SUPERIOR technology, they wouldn't be able to contend with super(unlimited) numbers, and Revan's tactics.

But who is to say that the Star Forge is impenetrable to heavy fire from ISD's?

While I once thought the Infinite Empire was nigh invincible, I can't help but shrug off the idea that Revan will be facing technology thousands of years ahead of his own, with strengths that he has NO idea how to counter.

Perhaps KotOR-era ships did not have the firepower to take down the Star Forge, which forced them to dangerously send in ships past the anti-ship field, but I strongly believe the Remnant has more than ample firepower to accomplish such.

I would have to agree with Darth Sexy. If Revan has enough manpower to replace losses, then he WILL win eventually unless Paelleon stumbles on the source to the shield and from there the Star Forge. Otherwise, he will merely succumb sooner or later.

And secondly, you mention that Revan will have no idea what firepower, armor, tactics, or tech he will be up against. This is very much valid.

However, you must understand that, unlike Paelleon bumping around uncharted space, Revan can LEARN the characteristics of the enemy.

It is highly likely that Revan's forces will indeed loose several of the starting battles. However, Revan can afford those losses, whereas the Remnant cannot. In addition, the only way Revan would learn nothing from the initial skirmishes is if there were absolutely no recordings or sources for the battle, and if no survivors managed to make their way back to base, two things I find highly unlikely.

Thus, from this and other skirmishes, he will learn a few pieces of info about his foe in most of their encounters, and he will develop either tactics or tech (this is, after all, the Star Forge, and, in spite of it being extremely old, it was successfully able to create modern equipment for the Sith), or perhaps both to counter the enemy. And if somehow a piece of Imperial equipment were to fall into Revan's hands, he would analyse the hell out of it and furhter refine his tactics and designs.

And, whereas he could replace the losses in manpower and equipment he took, Paelleon cannot.

However, whereas Revan can learn Paelleon's tactics and technology through fighting him, the only way Paelleon could find the key to Revan's power, the Star Forge and it's shield generator, is if he literally stumbled upon it.

And to do that, Paelleon and the Remnant would have to search pretty much the entire area for a hint of Revan's powerbase. And to do that he would either have to A: Split his forces, which would make them vulnerable to being picked off one by one and destroyed piecemeal through ambush, or B: Keep his entire fleet together and search together, which would take longer have a higher drain on supplies (medicinal, food, etc) and allow Revan more time to pore over his plans of action and build up his fleet.

So, overall, unless Paelleon and the Remnant fleet get lucky and stumble across Lehon and the Star Forge early, I would probably give this battle of attrition to Revan.

And secondly, Gideon, to claim that Germany had superior weapons and tactics and lost only thanks to superior numbers, to be quite frank, is inaccurate and ignorant.

My history books say differently; they unanimously state that Nazi Germany -- individually -- possessed the most powerful military machine in the world at that time, outstripping the United States, Great Britain, and Soviet Russia, hence why it was able to hold its own against them all for so long.

But I'm just a hick from Kentucky, so, what do I know? I'll leave this to the fellas smarter and more capable than myself (Janus and co.).

Oh, and secondly:

and because Revan can wear their force down piecemeal with the military produced by the Star Forge.

...To assume that Revan has the Star Forge in his possession, when the original post clearly says otherwise, is, to be frank, "inaccurate and ignorant". 🙂

Um, actually no, Gideon. Firstly, I can agree that the Nazis did have, per capita, the most powerful military on the planet at the time. However, they were not simply defeated through trading 5 men to kill one, as several people claim. In many cases, the Allies, especially the Western Allies, did indeed outfight and outthink superior German forces. I have stated this many times. To claim that the Germans weapons, doctrine, and leaders is false, as I said. They could easily defeat in isolation any one of their foes, but they could not, because the Allies were a group of nations joined together by a common threat. And within that group, the Western Allies were a group consisting of the (mostly) democratic nations of Western Europe and their colonies that all had individual Armed Forces but more or less conducted operations under one command.

And also, you said that, opposing Paelleon, is the "Infinite Empire commanded by Revan" more or less.

Now, the Infinite Empire is Rakatan, and we know little about it. However, from your inclusion of Revan, we believed that you were talking about the Sith under Revan. However, whichever one it is does not make much difference in this respect in the fact that THEY BOTH HAD THE STAR FORGE!

So, my thoughts that Revan would have the Star Forge are not inaccurate and ignorant, but are a perfectly rational conclusion.

But your refutation, on the other hand, is both.

So Gideon, which is it? Did you think that Revan created the Star Forge (which he did not)? Or are you ignorant as to the connotations of your post? I await a response.

To quote myself from the original post:

This is the Imperial Remnant as of the Hand of Thrawn duology, where Grand Admiral Pellaeon confirms that the Empire's remaining Star Destroyer count is at two hundred, versus the Infinite Empire, led by Revan, Dark Lord of the Sith. I am not a KotoR buff, but I assume that the Infinite Empire (before Revan's defeat) possessed more than two hundred ships.

I understand that the Empire's technology is superior to Revan's, but I believe that Revan's sheer numbers and Force powers might even off the playing field. But, just to make sure, we'll toss in Grand Admiral Thrawn's clone [Major Grodin Pierce] as the tactical genius for the Empire.

There is no Star Forge or superweapon other than their individual fleets. Who wins?

[Edit: If the Empire is still far advantageous, we'll get rid of Thrawn]

OK then, I stand corrected, and apologize. I was caught up in the big debate you see earlier, so thank you for the correction.

So, Revan has to be more careful with his men and use hit-and-run, but I do think he can take this, if he can minimize his losses in comparison to Paelleon.

Perhaps. Given the tactical disparity between Revan and Pellaeon; but the Galactic Empire's technology and weaponry is lightyears upon lightyears ahead of anything in Revan's arsenal.

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
However, you must understand that, unlike Paelleon bumping around uncharted space, Revan can LEARN the characteristics of the enemy.

Why do agree that Revan probably is a greater tactician than Pellaeon and i also belive that he would eventually win the battle.

But I do feel you are underestimating Pellaeon here. He is also great tactician and has had more experience in space combat than Revan. (galactic civil war, thrawn crisis,vong war to name a few) And don't forget that he was second in command of the remnant to Thrawn who is arguably the greatest military tactician ever. And Pellaeon did learn alot under him.

Once again im not stating that Pellaeon>Revan in tactics (personally i say they are closer than people are suggesting but i still say revan is better) but by no means is he a poor/unintelligent commander. I thin the outcome still is a victory for Revan but i think he will lose more ships than it sounds like you are suggesting and remant does stand about a 50%ish chance of winning due to superior technology.

I remember it being said that in some battles that Revan's forces would lose/sacrifice 10 republic soldiers per 1 mandalorian in order to gain the victory. I think this space battle would be something like that . Revan might lose 2-3 per every ISD that the remnant loses. It all comes down to the numbers game because eventually quantity beats quality. I would go with infinite fleet in the end.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Escape is right, Revan is the superior tactician here and he has unlimited numbers under his belt. His infinite empire wins.

My knowledge of WWII, unlike SW, is pretty advanced (I think), and Herd is right. At certain battle and campaigns, such a Patton' campaign in North Africa, the allies were able to outmaneuver the Nazis. However, this is more of an exception than the rule. At the beginning of WWII, the Germans did possess the most advanced warfare technology on the planet, and their army was second to nobody. Given equal numbers, nobody, not even the US or Russia, could beat the Germans. However, towards the end of WWII the Americans and the British were able to keep up with the advanced German technology and construct some of their own, and the sheer numbers of the allies eventually overwhelmed the Nazis. This, and the fact that Hitler went insane from the middle towards the end of the war, and decided to take on the entire world..