Imperial Remnant vs. Infinite Empire

After reading the original post again, I am more certain now than ever that the Remnant wins.

Revan does NOT have an infinite amount of ships without the Star Forge, therefore he can't win this. That was the only thing making his victory even a possibility, and without it, there's no way Revan can win this.

This is true, but technology does not necessarily decide the battle (for proof of this, see what happened in the war between the Mughals and the Portuguese over Bengal, the technologically-superior Portuguese were wiped out very utterly), but it is without a doubt an important consideration.

Do we have any ideas on how large of a fleet Revan's Sith Empire had? It was obviously large, and consisted of most of the fleet sent out to chase the routing Mandalorians out of the Rim Worlds, plus Turncoat and captured ships. However, we have no concrete figure for even a ballpark number.

However, we can guess that Revan has the numerical advantage and Paelleon the technological. Both sides are veterans, having fought alongside two of the great generals of Star Wars, Revan and Thrawn.

However, whereas Thrawn is dead (unless, like Zahn hinted, there is yet another clone out there, but that is beside the point) and his successor is Paelleon, who, while good, is not another Thrawn. He also lacked the confidence to carry the battle on after Thrawn was killed by his bodyguard, which leads me to think that his ability is hampered by a somewhat lower confidence level than is healthy, which, on the plus side, might prevent him from getting everybody killed in one sitting, but on the negative side might mean he will lack the confidence to resolve a difficult strategical and/or tactical dilemma that Revan might force on him.

Revan, on the other hand, is faced with a foe he knows nothing about (though I take it Paelleon does not know his opponent and his tech as well, but since the Remnant has the tech advantage squarely in it's favor, this is not really a weakness), and will have to try to find the Achilles Heel of an Imperial Battle Cluster while keeping his losses relatively low (in other words, if he outnumbered Paelleon 5-1, he has to keep his losses 4-1, etc.)

This will ultimately be a battle of attrition, and that means that Revan has to try to pry Paelleon's fleet apart and concentrate fire on the cluster one by one to systematically cut the Remnant down to size, while Paelleon will have to try to engage the Sith Empire's forces partially, where he can bring the full might of his superior technology to bear on a small portion of Revan's fleet, destroy it while keeping his losses as low as possible, and try to engage another small fleet and take Revan done a few pegs that way while avoiding the main Sith fleet until it is weak enough.

It could go either way. I am slightly leaning towards Revan due to superior experience, but Paelleon, should he keep his cool, might take this with his superior firepower.

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
It could go either way. I am slightly leaning towards Revan due to superior experience, but Paelleon, should he keep his cool, might take this with his superior firepower.

Actually in terms of war experience, the edge goes to Pellaeon as he has participated the Glactic civil war,thrawn crisis,part of operation shadow hand,vong war and swarm war. Now in terms of tactical skill/genius the edge goes to Revan. But keep in mind it is possible for Pallaeon to know of revan due to the gap in time. And could know a few of revan's tactics(just speculation)

Revan's fleet will most likely win due to superiors numbers because if you are gonna start a war to take of the republic you are going to need a fleet of considerable size. And prior to the start of the JCW he had 1/3 of the republic fleet under his command. I believe in order for Revan to overcome the tech. difference between the 2 fleets he will have to sacrifice 2-3 ships per one ISD (sort of like he did in the mado. wars when he would gain victories but sacrifice 10 men per one mando.) Or atleast have 2 ships attack one ISD at once with the right numbers and his better tactics,Revan's fleet will emerge as the victor.

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
OK then, I stand corrected, and apologize. I was caught up in the big debate you see earlier, so thank you for the correction.

So, Revan has to be more careful with his men and use hit-and-run, but I do think he can take this, if he can minimize his losses in comparison to Paelleon.

Did you forget the fact that an ISD has over 150 times the turbolaser firepower of a Rakata ship? Are you unaware that for every ship the Empire has they have more than a thousand other smaller ships? Based on Pellaeon's quote of 200 ISD's, the Impire should have more than 200,000 FAR superior ships to what the Rakata have. They pwn them plain and simple.

BTW, whether or not Pellaeon is inferior to Revan is debateable. The Old Man of the Empire know's his shit.

Originally posted by Gideon
[B]This is the Imperial Remnant as of the Hand of Thrawn duology, where Grand Admiral Pellaeon confirms that the Empire's remaining Star Destroyer count is at two hundred, versus the Infinite Empire, led by Revan, Dark Lord of the Sith. I am not a KotoR buff, but I assume that the Infinite Empire (before Revan's defeat) possessed more than two hundred ships.

Erm. Are we talking about the Rakatan's Infinite Empire here or about the Sith Empire under Revan (meaning Revan's actual troops before his defeat at the beginning of KotoR) ?

I understand that the Empire's technology is superior to Revan's, but I believe that Revan's sheer numbers and Force powers might even off the playing field. But, just to make sure, we'll toss in Grand Admiral Thrawn's clone [Major Grodin Pierce] as the tactical genius for the Empire.

Well. You have to start at the beginning.
The standart set-up for Imperial fleets were 6 ISDs accompanied by 400 smaller (but still capital) ships ranging from Lancer Frigates over Dreadnaughts to Carriers. Thus if Palleon had 200 ISDs the number of his capital ships would still be somewhere around 13,000. And those would be ships compareable to the best that Revan had under his command. In addition they had at least one Super Star Destroyer.

Now notice that a single Mandator Class SSD (which is again inferior to the Executor-class or the Eclipse-class) was said to be able to deal with 1,000 CIS Recusant-class light destroyers (which are compareable to Revan's ships in terms of size).

Revan would be simply owned by the Imperial Remnant's superior technology. Once could even argue that - counting the support ships in - the Remnant also has superior numbers. 😉

Bobard brings up an excellent point we don't know if the infinite fleet had any supporting ships while we know the imperial remnant did aswell as had a super star destroyer which decimate the infinite fleet's star destroyers.

Yes, Glentract, I actually DID take into account the supporting ships on the Imperial side. Naturally, each ISD will have supporting ships; fighters, support ships, gunships, frigates, fighter-bombers, bombers, etc. However, you fail to take into account that Revan will likely have the same sorts of supporting ships. These will, naturally, be of inferior tech than those of the Remnant, but more numerous.

And as for the quote of Paelleon's experience, I would have to cut that estimate by more than a bit: Paelleon did indeed serve in Shadow Hand, Swarm War, Vong War, etc all, but this takes place with the Remnant of 9 ABY, after they gave the campaign up at the Shipyards of Bilbringi. Thus, you have to add his combat in the Clone Wars, but subtract his experiences at everything past 9 ABY.

And, secondly, we have no idea what the Rakata Ships were like. Currently, it looks like much of the board is operating under the assumption that by "Infinite Empire," Gideon meant "Revan's Sith Empire," with the associated text. Until I get a clarification, then I will continue to operate under said assumption due to the ambiguity of the text.

If we WERE dealing with the Rakata VS Remnant, then I would agree, the Rakata and Revan would lose. Big Time.

However, your quote of 200,000 Remnant ships of all types is, to be quite frank, is a little hard to buy.

We can all agree that the core of the Imperial Remnant's fleet for this battle/campaign will be the 200 or so Imperial-class Star Destroyers that the Remnant had after the final retreat from Bilbringi. Those ships, if they are Imperial Is, can only carry 72 fighters, and if they are Imperial IIs, they can only carry six.

And plus, I am also more than a little bit stumped as to how you assume that the Remnant has a pristine support fleet after the knock-down drag-out at Bilbringi. These ships have suffered attrition in numbers and personnel. Thus, Paelleon is going to have to make due on understrength units.

I am also skeptical of how you can claim there will be 200,000 ships, as what would give you reason to think that? Any sources on the size of an Imperial battle group? please post.

And, again, Paelleon may know "his shit," but I do not think that he was the supreme commander of a military-at-arms before 9 ABy, which is what we are dealing with.

Oops, it looks like I forgot the hit "refresh" while writing the old post up.

Given Borbarad's post, if the Imperial navy has a numerical AND technological advantage, it is over. Revan may be able to struggle doggedly on for some time, but ultimately it will go to Paelleon.

Firstoff, however, I want to remind people that we are NOT dealing with a fresh Imperial Battle Cluster here, it did suffer several prior battles, and is probably in the process of being repaired.

However, Borbarad does have a valid point. This might not be a fresh Imperial Battle Cluster, it is certainly not shattered either, as Paelleon managed to withdraw his fleet after Thrawn's death without being completely routed and hunted down.

So, if the Remnant DOES have a numerical advantage, the only way I can see Revan winning is if he can have his fighters kamikazi into the bridge of the Star Destroyers (hey, it HAS worked before...)

Don't forget though that they did have 1 super star destroyer which would play a big difference.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Erm. Are we talking about the Rakatan's Infinite Empire here or about the Sith Empire under Revan (meaning Revan's actual troops before his defeat at the beginning of KotoR) ?

Well. You have to start at the beginning.
The standart set-up for Imperial fleets were 6 ISDs accompanied by 400 smaller (but still capital) ships ranging from Lancer Frigates over Dreadnaughts to Carriers. Thus if Palleon had 200 ISDs the number of his capital ships would still be somewhere around 13,000. And those would be ships compareable to the best that Revan had under his command. In addition they had at least one Super Star Destroyer.

Now notice that a single Mandator Class SSD (which is again inferior to the Executor-class or the Eclipse-class) was said to be able to deal with 1,000 CIS Recusant-class light destroyers (which are compareable to Revan's ships in terms of size).

Revan would be simply owned by the Imperial Remnant's superior technology. Once could even argue that - counting the support ships in - the Remnant also has superior numbers. 😉

Damn. All right, Nai. Well, I didn't want this to be ownage either way. Perhaps you could tell me how I could even the odds?

Originally posted by Gideon
Damn. All right, Nai. Well, I didn't want this to be ownage either way. Perhaps you could tell me how I could even the odds?

You could reduce the Imperial Navy to 10 ISD's and no support ships.

The Infinite Empire crumples and dies from the awesomeness of Pellaeon

They really do. They'd just be like "how the **** has he lived so long?" and die.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You could reduce the Imperial Navy to 10 ISD's and no support ships.

😮

Ten Imperial-class Star Destroyers could contend with Revan's entire fleet?

Originally posted by Gideon
😮

Ten Imperial-class Star Destroyers could contend with Revan's entire fleet?

They might well be able to do so. You have to keep in mind that a SINGLE ISD has 150 times the turbolaser firepower of Revan's ships. 10 ISD's could match 1,500 of Revan's ships. You might need to throw in 10 or 20 more to make sure, but it certainly would take nowhere near the entire Remnant fleet.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
They might well be able to do so. You have to keep in mind that a SINGLE ISD has 150 times the turbolaser firepower of Revan's ships. 10 ISD's could match 1,500 of Revan's ships. You might need to throw in 10 or 20 more to make sure, but it certainly would take nowhere near the entire Remnant fleet.

Holy -censor-.

Okay. Damn. So, how bad would the Galactic Empire -- at its height -- win? How long would it take for Revan's entire fleet to be hunted down, I mean, if it were a campaign.

Glentract and Nai, be cool if you could add something to this topic.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=462957&pagenumber=1#post9459587

I need to know about SW tech and you two seem the best to ask around here.

Originally posted by Gideon
Holy -censor-.

Okay. Damn. So, how bad would the Galactic Empire -- at its height -- win? How long would it take for Revan's entire fleet to be hunted down, I mean, if it were a campaign.

Well, the GE has far superior galactic maps aswell as better hyperdrives. It would really depend on how well they could hide in place like the unknown regions. It might take a few months if Revan's fleets just fled at every turn.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Well, the GE has far superior galactic maps aswell as better hyperdrives. It would really depend on how well they could hide in place like the unknown regions. It might take a few months if Revan's fleets just fled at every turn.

All right. And, if you were a gambling person, how long would his fleets last in engagements against, say... Vader's Death Squadron or Thrawn's forces?

first off where did you get this info on the turbo lasers for the ISD 150 times more powerful?

and over 25 thousand years minimum passed between the Rakatan Infinite Empire and the events in Kotor and they were still just as powerful if not more than the Republic's ships of the day.

also reven could easily board on of the ISD's while it is being distracted, since he was one of the most powerful sith/Jedi in star wars history and his empire also had thousands of sith he could capture an ISD then implement the technology in his own ships by upgrading his weapons and shields.

and also just for speculations sake, Bastila had joined Revan and used her Battle meditation to rally the rakatan ships.

Land battles would not have been as one sided as the space battles.
The ISD carries approx. 9700 troops, that would be a total of 1,940,000 troops, it would probably be safe to say that Revan and his 1000+ sith are with him, as well as malak, and probably 2 mil. troops

the remnant have about2 mil. troops as well as several thousand AT-At's and At-St's.

I do not know much about revan's attack vehicles, but I do know that a Storm trooper is no match for a jedi, and a sith has more aggresive force powers than a jedi, so it is safe to say thatthe sith would tear the troops apart

And since revan is about as powerful as luke if not the same, he could take on alot of At-Ats as well as At-Sts.

Revan would probably have his troops use a mandalorian battle rifle, considering he knew he knew how powerful it was.

Since revan was a master tactician we know he would probably use HK-47 to take out the remnant fleet commanders.
Since the HK series was discontinued the remnant probably know very little about HK-47 let alone about HK series and how they masqueraded as protocol droids then wreaked havoc after a short time, what is to stop HK-47 from doin that again?

also just comparing the ISD to the Rakatan warships and Revans strategic skills to pallean deosn't cut it. Revan has a huge advantage, the sith and they were not push-overs.

Revan had precognitive abilities as well as the force.

sheer numbers and fire power deos not cut it, the rebels are living proof of that.
at the battle of endor the rebels were out matched but they ended up on top through sabotage on han solos part with the shield generators part, along with the rebels blowing up the Death star, if numbers and strategy were the only things that mattered the empire would have crushed te rebels.