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Sirak was so fast that he could move in blurs, and even possessed the concentration, reflexes and focus to control himself and fight at those speeds for long durations of time (not even Yoda was able to move at those speeds in his movie duels). He's a master swordsman, noted to have mastered multiple forms, and he was quite the prodigy, given that he could master some sequences in hours that it would take the other students weeks to even become proficient with. He's the weaker of the team 1 duo, but I'd still say he could take both Maul and Dooku alone. His only weakness is long drawn out duels, yet I doubt either would be able to last too long against him. Sirak ftw. Adding Kas'im is complete overkill imho.
*waits for people to start quoting the Ultimate Visual Guide aka The Maul/Dooku Fanboy Bible*
Sirak was so fast that he could move in blurs, and even possessed the concentration, reflexes and focus to control himself and fight at those speeds for long durations of time (not even Yoda was able to move at those speeds in his movie duels).
He's a master swordsman, noted to have mastered multiple forms, and he was quite the prodigy, given that he could master some sequences in hours that it would take the other students weeks to even become proficient with. He's the weaker of the team 1 duo, but I'd still say he could take both Maul and Dooku alone. His only weakness is long drawn out duels, yet I doubt either would be able to last too long against him. Sirak ftw. Adding Kas'im is complete overkill imho.
The order here goes Kas'im > Dooku > Maul > Sirak. I say Kas'im beats Dooku at the same time that Mau; takes out Sirak (both are fairly long duels). Then Kas'im kills Maul.
So I do agree that Kas'im and Sirak win, but your logic is terrible - no one will be pwning anybody here.
In all seriousness, Nebaris, you really don't have any room to speak of fanboyism. I'm not going to attack you [and don't perceive this as a verbal attack], but you're about as bad as they come as far as fanboyism is concerned. Second, the 'quotes from the Ultimate Visual Guide' as well as the quotes involving Count Dooku in the RotS novelization (G-canon source, which puts it on a higher level of canon than PoD) are equally valid and irrefutable. If you'd like to argue the quotes, you can do so to either Ushgarak or REX.
Sirak was so fast that he could move in blurs, and even possessed the concentration, reflexes and focus to control himself and fight at those speeds for long durations of time (not even Yoda was able to move at those speeds in his movie duels).
No, Sidious was described as 'a blur of energy' in his duel with Mace [and The Holocron confirmed that movie speeds do not contradict the speeds detailed in the EU, thus it is valid] and Yoda is - at the very least - his equal in speed, to the point that he was able to evade three of the Order's 'finest swordsmen' in unarmed combat [one of them a swordswoman who rivals Mace in skill]. That makes him as fast (or as logic would conclude, much faster) than Sirak.
I wanted to debunk that before we continued.
He's the weaker of the team 1 duo, but I'd still say he could take both Maul and Dooku alone.
Wrong. Count Dooku is 'one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand year history' and is 'an even greater Sith Lord'. Sirak has done nothing [other than own Bane once and then get owned by him in return - which, suffice it to say, does not make one uber in any sense] to put him anywhere on par. Dooku is ahead of him in both categories by an uncanny degree [he put Ventress on her knees by lifting a finger]. Maul, himself, is 'one of the deadliest Sith apprentices in history', has 'pushed his physical and Force-assisted abilities to the utmost', and so on and so forth, so he - too - is greater than Sirak. Dooku would own Sirak, as would Maul. Kas'im? Now, that's another story.
No. Maul owns Sirak while Dooku holds off Kas'im, and together, they own Kas'im.
Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
If I'm so stupid and such a fanboy, how comes you can't prove me wrong? Go on, offer up the best counter argument you can, I dare you.
Because everytime somebody destroys your argument(virtually everytime you're in an argument), you take your precious antidepressants and convince yourself that you've somehow pwned someone in a debate. I don't need to prove you wrong, Escape already wtfpwned your argument. Keep trying.
Sirak was good, but nothing special. He was one of the best apprentices of a weak order of Sith. Maul would thrash him. Dooku could deal with Grievous, so, I'd be willing to bet Kas'im's two sabers wouldn't have Dooku beat, and I'd be willing to bet that Dooku could beat Kas'im alone, add in Maul, and it's overkill. Maul alone could likely best Kas'im too. Anoon Bondara was basically his lightside counterpart (of a stronger era, mind you), and he fell to Maul in seconds. While Kas'im may be above Anoon, his superiority is marginal, at best. Maul would be given a tough time, but he too could take Kas'im.
Sirak was good, but nothing special.
No, he really was something special. Moving in blurs and having the reflexes and control to keep up with his speed and concentrate in demanding situations such as lightsaber duels is extremely impressive. Being able to master some of the more difficult lightsaber sequences in hours when it took other students weeks to become proficient in is extremely impressive. Having mastered multiple forms on top of the insane speed and great natural grasp of the saber, and Sirak really is something special when it comes to saber combat.
He was one of the best apprentices
Nice how you ignored the fact that these 'appentices' were stronger than the majority of the Masters in the BoD. Putting emphasis on the fact that he was an apprentice is completely misleading given these particular apprentices, in terms of skill and ability, were actually on Master level. Please try and not be so misleading JJ.
of a weak order of Sith.
Proof for that? They were pretty much the most martial order of force users ever, given how they had been fighting against the Jedi in near constant warfare for hundreds of years. War generally brings the best out in warriors, and separates the weak from the strong, so that fact alone would make it logical that the NSO were pretty impressive when it came to saber combat. In fact, saber combat was pretty much the biggest aspect of training that the BoD offered, implying that they held it in the highest value, implying that it was the area they excelled at. So given the fact that the training of this order of sith focused on saber combat, and that the battle experience they received against the lightsaber wielding Jedi for hundreds of years in near constant warfare was second to no other order, I'd say it's safe to say that the NSO were the most impressive order of force users ever when it came to saber combat. And these 'apprentices' were the cream of the crop when it came to that order.
Maul would thrash him.
Despite his inferior speed and technical abilities with a saber?
Dooku could deal with Grievous, so, I'd be willing to bet Kas'im's two sabers wouldn't have Dooku beat,
Wow, wonderful logic. Let's not forget the fact that Grievous lacks some abilities that only force user receive, such as force sense and precognition. Let's also not forget the fact that Kas'im was able to wield those two sabers as if he had six of them. Let's also not forget the fact that forming comparisons between the number of sabers they wield, and ignoring all other factors, and then forming a conclusion upon that is fallacious beyond belief.
and I'd be willing to bet that Dooku could beat Kas'im alone
I'm sure you would, but you haven't in any way made a convincing case for such a thing.
add in Maul, and it's overkill.
That's if we forget about Sirak, and overrate the PT characters.
Maul alone could likely best Kas'im too.
😆
Anoon Bondara was basically his lightside counterpart
No he wasn't. There's no proof that Anoon Bondara even mastered multiple forms, let alone anywhere near the amount Kas'im did. When Anoon masters all 7 forms, for all primary arts of the saber, perfects all of them, and constantly keeps his skills in practise with each form, get back to me. Not to mention the fact that there's no proof whatsoever that his general skill was anywhere near Kas'im's.
(of a stronger era, mind you),
No.
and he fell to Maul in seconds.
Hardly seconds, more like minutes, and Bondara ended the fight prematurely anyways, so it could have gone on for an unknown amount of time longer.
While Kas'im may be above Anoon, his superiority is marginal, at best.
No. Kas'im's saber mastery >>>>> Anoon's.
Kasim's force strength >>>>> Anoon's (given how he could block Bane's energy blast that was able to bring a 20 story temple down in seconds).
Kas'im's overall skill >>>>> Anoon's (can move in blurs, wield two sabers as if he had 6, insane reflexes).
Maul would be given a tough time, but he too could take Kas'im.
You are aware that Maul almost beat Sidious in a duel, correct?
Sure, I'm aware that he nearly bested Sidious in a blind fury which he can't go in and out of at will.
You are aware that Maul was getting his ass kicked by an enraged apprentice (here's where emphasis isn't misleading) in a duel, correct?
Seeing as howyouKas'im got banned in that thread and I had some valid points, I don't see how I got owned in the least.
Yeah, because getting banned was at all in relation to how Kas'im debated in that thread? No it's not, so what you're bringing up is irrelevant.
None of your conflicting points were valid anyways, which is all that counts, and you were over hyping some of the 'valid points' beyond belief. You also failed to respond to the majority of the opposition's points, and replied with one sentence posts which really didn't change sh1t. And 'Maul would not get tired, where Kas'Im was stated to be a victim of fatigue.' much? Questioning the integrity of the entire novel using just one random contradiction, much? Face it dude, you got owned, by both Zephiel and Kas'im.
Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
I'm loving the feat wars guys, real awesome.
Why do you downplay 'feat wars' in some threads and then swear by them in others? Aren't feat wars what you clung to in the Bane/Vader thread, saying that Vader (Anakin) has done nothing that compares to what Bane has done? Nice...
You need to learn to put things into perspective before commenting, Nebaris. Simply saying that Maul 'was getting his ass kicked' by an apprentice is all well and good, but hardly the complete truth. After all, one could say the same thing about Darth Sidious and Maul before, but - as you so eloquently put it - he did so in a 'blind rage', a state that he isn't always in. As was the case with Obi-Wan. In fact, the novelization goes into detail on how that, despte this 'fury', Maul was still the stronger of the two and was "caught off guard" by Obi-Wan's sudden fury. The fact that he [while not at full strength, I'm told] managed to hold off Qui-Gon [who was proven by the novelization to still be Obi-Wan's superior by a fair margin] and Obi-Wan simultaneously goes to show that he is much greater than either of them alone.
No, he really was something special. Moving in blurs and having the reflexes and control to keep up with his speed and concentrate in demanding situations such as lightsaber duels is extremely impressive. Being able to master some of the more difficult lightsaber sequences in hours when it took other students weeks to become proficient in is extremely impressive. Having mastered multiple forms on top of the insane speed and great natural grasp of the saber, and Sirak really is something special when it comes to saber combat.
This is all well and good, but irrelevant once again. It has been proven that movie speeds do not contradict the speeds solicited by EU works. Thus, Yoda - renowned for his immense speed - would thus be much faster than someone like Sirak [being able to evade three Jedi masters (among the best swordsmen in the Order's history) unarmed in single combat, for example]. Sirak, is thus, nothing special. Dooku, who has been proven time and again to be vastly superior to Sirak in terms of power, and Maul 'one of the deadliest Sith apprentices in history' who - 'pushed his lightsaber and Force-assisted abilities to the utmost' would also obviously be superior to Sirak in terms of physical and melee related works, sabers included.
Proof for that? They were pretty much the most martial order of force users ever, given how they had been fighting against the Jedi in near constant warfare for hundreds of years. War generally brings the best out in warriors, and separates the weak from the strong, so that fact alone would make it logical that the NSO were pretty impressive when it came to saber combat. In fact, saber combat was pretty much the biggest aspect of training that the BoD offered, implying that they held it in the highest value, implying that it was the area they excelled at. So given the fact that the training of this order of sith focused on saber combat, and that the battle experience they received against the lightsaber wielding Jedi for hundreds of years in near constant warfare was second to no other order, I'd say it's safe to say that the NSO were the most impressive order of force users ever when it came to saber combat. And these 'apprentices' were the cream of the crop when it came to that order.
Not true. Labyrinth of Evil confirms that the 'dark side had been gaining strength' for two hundred years prior to Sidious's reign, and it was this shift in dominance (resulting from Darth Sidious) that diminished the Jedi's 'ability to use the Force'. Really, logic concludes that if Sidious and his Sith were powerful enough to dampen the Jedi's ability to use the Force [numbering two at a time while they numbered in the thousands], how are they 'stronger'? Logic concludes that the dark side is much stronger during Maul's time.
I don't see Kas'im beating Maul when Maul:
* Nearly bested Sidious.
* Was confident he could beat any member of the Jedi order
* Could spin his lightsaber so fast (in combat) that it looked and was as effective as a shield.
* "Mastered the lightsaber."
* Was put through the most rigorous training (such as having to survive by himself against a legion of assassin droids, who I doubt let him sleep).
* Was one of the most deadly Sith apprentices ever.
* Had "far superior darkside knowledge" than Mighella.
* Knew and used Teras Kasi.
* Was fast enough to dodge explosions even when he only had "a microsecond" to dodge it
* Was trained by Darth Sidious.
* Defeated Anoon Bondara, whose "skills were second to none" quite easily.
* Defeated an energized Qui Gon, who was the best duelist Obi Wan had ever seen and was on par with TPM Mace in 30 seconds flat, and after having to fight both him and Obi Wan (who was Knighted the next day), while injured.
* Was from a group of Sith who were the most powerful ever seen.