Kas'im and Sirak v.s. Darth Tyranus and Darth Maul

You need to learn to put things into perspective before commenting, Nebaris. Simply saying that Maul 'was getting his ass kicked' by an apprentice is all well and good, but hardly the complete truth. After all, one could say the same thing about Darth Sidious and Maul before, but - as you so eloquently put it - he did so in a 'blind rage', a state that he isn't always in. As was the case with Obi-Wan.

Did you miss the 'enraged'?

In fact, the novelization goes into detail on how that, despte this 'fury', Maul was still the stronger of the two and was "caught off guard" by Obi-Wan's sudden fury.

Caught off guard for quite a while, eh? You can't attribute pushing Maul on the defencive, putting him on his ass with a kick, slicing his saber in two, and force him to run away like a b1tch all to being caught off guard.

The fact that he [while not at full strength, I'm told] managed to hold off Qui-Gon [who was proven by the novelization to still be Obi-Wan's superior by a fair margin] and Obi-Wan simultaneously goes to show that he is much greater than either of them alone.

Not disagreeing. Really, I'm not denying that Maul was a lot better than either of the duo, I only brought it up in mock response to the way JJ brought up the fact that Maul nearly bested Sidious. In fact I've even argued that Maul would have eventually won their duel anyway once he regained his composure and Obi-Wan's rage died down.

By the way, where's it said that Maul wasn't at full power? Not denying it, I'm actually quite curious where it's said.

This is all well and good, but irrelevant once again.

How is posting how impressive a duelist Sirak was in a thread arguing who would win in a lightsaber duel irrelevant? How is anything I've said irrelevant? In fact, what you're saying is irrelevant (explained below).

It has been proven that movie speeds do not contradict the speeds solicited by EU works. Thus, Yoda - renowned for his immense speed - would thus be much faster than someone like Sirak [being able to evade three Jedi masters (among the best swordsmen in the Order's history) unarmed in single combat, for example]. Sirak, is thus, nothing special.

Who mentioned Yoda? Who cares about any of this? It seems you're trying to change the subject of this debate when there's no need to. What you're posting is irrelevant actually, given nobody's talking about Yoda, and in terms of the whole Movie/EU speed inconsistencies, Maul and Dooku aren't even affected.

Dooku, who has been proven time and again to be vastly superior to Sirak in terms of power,

Force power, I'd agree, saber combat, I'd disagree. I've already offered a valid argument, you've yet to do that.

and Maul 'one of the deadliest Sith apprentices in history'

That's great, but this means nothing at all, until you can quantify and substantiate it, and prove that Sirak doesn't fit the bill. Really, what we're essentially getting down to is Maul being one of the best of about what? 50 apprentices (likely at most)? It's really not as impressive as you'd have people believe.

who - 'pushed his lightsaber and Force-assisted abilities to the utmost' would also obviously be superior to Sirak in terms of physical and melee related works, sabers included.

How so? You think Sirak, who excelled at 'lightsaber and Force-assisted abilities', and who's training focused on such things didn't do the same? Again, what you posted is great and all, but it means nothing at all, until you can quantify and substantiate it, and prove that Sirak doesn't fit the bill.

Not true. Labyrinth of Evil confirms that the 'dark side had been gaining strength' for two hundred years prior to Sidious's reign, and it was this shift in dominance (resulting from Darth Sidious) that diminished the Jedi's 'ability to use the Force'. Really, logic concludes that if Sidious and his Sith were powerful enough to dampen the Jedi's ability to use the Force [numbering two at a time while they numbered in the thousands], how are they 'stronger'? Logic concludes that the dark side is much stronger during Maul's time.

We're talking saber combat here Gideon, so what you just posted is very much irrelevant. How great an effect their respective orders had on the will of the force doesn't say anything about which order would naturally be more impressive in saber combat.

um...team 2 takes this.

Nebaris is an idiot, we all know this. Can everyone just put him on ignore already?

I agree with jollyjim, just because Kasim mastered 7 forms, doesn't make him the best, Dooku mastered his form to a higher degree then Kasim(as did Maul), Kasim spent allot of time training, but he trained all 7 forms, while Dooku and Maul, spent allot of time training as well, but they only trained mostly in their favorite form. Both Maul and especially Dooku knew other forms, that Kasim mastered, Dooku as a Jedi probably practiced with all practitioners of 7 forms. And even If Kasim would be better then Maul And Dooku one on one, he has got to weak of a teammate to help him, Sirak goes down first, no mater what the line up.

Did you miss the 'enraged'?[quote]

No, I didn't. But you have a notorious habit for taking things out of context in situations to your benefit, so I wanted to make sure that that didn't happen here.

[QUOTE]Caught off guard for quite a while, eh? You can't attribute pushing Maul on the defencive, putting him on his ass with a kick, slicing his saber in two, and force him to run away like a b1tch all to being caught off guard.

That's stupid. If someone catches you off guard in the midst of a fight, it is highly likely that they will dominate the fight until something happens that allows you to regain the advantage. Maul was no different. He couldn't exactly 'regain his guard' until he could stop Obi-Wan for a second or two; but it's irrelevant: the novelization dictates that Obi-Wan gaining the offensive was because a.) he caught Maul off guard and b.) he unleashed his rage.

Not disagreeing. Really, I'm not denying that Maul was a lot better than either of the duo, I only brought it up in mock response to the way JJ brought up the fact that Maul nearly bested Sidious. In fact I've even argued that Maul would have eventually won their duel anyway once he regained his composure and Obi-Wan's rage died down.

Then we have no dispute.

By the way, where's it said that Maul wasn't at full power? Not denying it, I'm actually quite curious where it's said.

Darthsith made an argument about it, quoting some source [it might be the New Essential Guide To Characters] but don't quote me on that.

How is posting how impressive a duelist Sirak was in a thread arguing who would win in a lightsaber duel irrelevant? How is anything I've said irrelevant? In fact, what you're saying is irrelevant (explained below).

Because you're basing that on his supposed superiority over Dooku, when he hasn't done anything that puts him that far up on the totem pole.

Who mentioned Yoda?

You did. You mentioned how 'Yoda was not able to move at those speeds during the movie duels' and I am telling you that, according to Chee, that isn't the case.

Who cares about any of this? It seems you're trying to change the subject of this debate when there's no need to. What you're posting is irrelevant actually, given nobody's talking about Yoda, and in terms of the whole Movie/EU speed inconsistencies, Maul and Dooku aren't even affected.

You were talking about Yoda, and Maul and Dooku's speed isn't affected - you're right - because they are as fast as the EU works say they are. Which happens to be very much so.

Force power, I'd agree, saber combat, I'd disagree. I've already offered a valid argument, you've yet to do that.

Wrong, I have. It's a no-brainer that Dooku's obviously much stronger in the Force than Sirak; saber-wise, he's also ahead. Mastering Makashi [the ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber] for eight decades, able to duel Mace and Yoda effectively, makes me think that Dooku is far ahead of Sirak in dueling ability in all aspects. And so he is.

That's great, but this means nothing at all, until you can quantify and substantiate it, and prove that Sirak doesn't fit the bill.

I don't need to 'prove or substantiate it'. It was dictated by a canon source. Sirak's abilities were never glorified to that amount.

Really, what we're essentially getting down to is Maul being one of the best of about what? 50 apprentices (likely at most)? It's really not as impressive as you'd have people believe.

Actually, it's quite impressive. Certainly moreso than Sirak.

How so? You think Sirak, who excelled at 'lightsaber and Force-assisted abilities', and who's training focused on such things didn't do the same?

I need something concrete, Apollo. Several sources glorify Maul's combat related skills. Excelling in 'lightsaber and Force-assisted abilities' isn't the same as 'putting them to the utmost', like Maul has. Really, Sirak isn't as skilled as Maul. Physically, he's by far his inferior.

We're talking saber combat here Gideon, so what you just posted is very much irrelevant. How great an effect their respective orders had on the will of the force doesn't say anything about which order would naturally be more impressive in saber combat.

It speaks for them that - when numbering two - their presence had a far greater effect on both the Force and the Jedi than the New Sith Order [numbering in, what? the hundreds? thousands?] or Bane ever did.

No, I didn't. But you have a notorious habit for taking things out of context in situations to your benefit, so I wanted to make sure that that didn't happen here.

LOL, you seem to have adopted Darth Sexy's insane quoting skills. 😛 (JK)

Anyways, clearly you did, and you're just trying to save your ass now (I honestly don't know why though, it's not that big a deal where mistakes are concerned) because given that I went out of my way to include the fact that Kenobi was also in a rage, thinking that I'm in any way trying to be misleading is 100% bad reading comprehension on your part.

That's stupid. If someone catches you off guard in the midst of a fight, it is highly likely that they will dominate the fight until something happens that allows you to regain the advantage. Maul was no different. He couldn't exactly 'regain his guard' until he could stop Obi-Wan for a second or two; but it's irrelevant: the novelization dictates that Obi-Wan gaining the offensive was because a.) he caught Maul off guard and b.) he unleashed his rage.

Dude, you're acting as if Maul wasn't presented with any chance to 'regain his guard', which is completely untrue. Watch this video, at 3:10 Maul gains the perfect chance to somewhat regain his composure, when Kenobi pauses the offense for a second or two and briefly goes on the defencive. The point I was making is that you can't attribute everything that Obi-Wan does to catching Maul off guard, however it doesn't matter, as it seems we're now in agreement (in the sense that there was more to it than simply being caught off guard), going by the final clause in your last statement.

Then we have no dispute.

I love it when we agree... 😄

Darthsith made an argument about it, quoting some source [it might be the New Essential Guide To Characters] but don't quote me on that.

Eh, until I see proof I'm not believing such a claim, though I can see that you don't really care too much for whether he was or was not at full power (as don't I), so it doesn't really matter.

Because you're basing that on his supposed superiority over Dooku, when he hasn't done anything that puts him that far up on the totem pole.

That's your opinion (which you know I disagree with), however I'm guessing nevertheless that 'irrelevant' wasn't the word you were looking for, as it was 100% relevant. Perhaps 'insignificant' was the word you were looking for, I don't know.

You did. You mentioned how 'Yoda was not able to move at those speeds during the movie duels' and I am telling you that, according to Chee, that isn't the case.

Dude, I never mentioned the Y word once in this entire thread. If you're referring to other arguments I've made, leave your rebuttals to those specific arguments, and not the ones where I'm not even bringing him up, as it's not really relevant, and just needlessly draws out the debate.

You were talking about Yoda, and Maul and Dooku's speed isn't affected - you're right - because they are as fast as the EU works say they are. Which happens to be very much so.

Which so it happens is nothing to brag about, and nowhere near Sirak's level.

Wrong, I have. It's a no-brainer that Dooku's obviously much stronger in the Force than Sirak; saber-wise, he's also ahead.

Dude, keep the arguments saber related, this thread is a saber battle, you realise? Unless you're including strength in the force as something that would factor in on how well he can duel with a saber (which wasn't in any way indicated by your post btw), in which case I still don't think you have a valid point. In a pure force battle, I'd too place my bet on Dooku overwhelming him, due to his more impressive offensive capabilities, however like Maul, Sirak focused more on augmenting his physical attributes with the force (which is actually something that would factor in on a duel, whereas offensive capabilities and whatnot wouldn't), and he could do so to a much higher degree than either Maul or Dooku.

Mastering Makashi [the ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber] for eight decades,

Firstly, we don't know exactly how long he spent mastering Makashi specifically, however you somewhat have a point; Dooku's experience is much greater than Sirak's. However, since when has experience been the big be all end all in lightsaber combat? It certainly didn't prove too effective against Anakin Skywalker, someone who has nowhere near as much experience as Dooku, and it seems that natural talent in almost every case >>>>> pure experience. Sirak was quite the prodigy, able to master some of the most difficult sequences in hours when it took other students weeks to even become proficient in. It's very likely, in terms of technical prowess, that Sirak's superior natural grasp would make up for the less experience. Really, Sirak's certainly in no way lacking in the technical department of saber combat. As already mentioned, his natural grasp was extremely impressive, as was his mastery of the saber (multiple forms).

able to duel Mace and Yoda effectively, makes me think that Dooku is far ahead of Sirak in dueling ability in all aspects.

That's great and all (though I'd hardly call getting firmly beaten by Yoda with countless advantages on his side being able to effectively duel him, but that's just me), but any proof that Sirak couldn't?

And so he is.

What you think = fact?

I don't need to 'prove or substantiate it'. It was dictated by a canon source. [quote]

Yes you do, because without proving just how impressive that quote makes him, and proving that Sirak dosn't fit the bill, you have no case.

[quote]Sirak's abilities were never glorified to that amount.

Gideon, come one now man, I expect better from you. Firstly, Sirak is a minor character in just one book, whereas Maul is a movie character, one of the most popular EU characters, with about 4 of his own novels, a film partially dedicated to him, his own comic book series, and tons of reference material commenting on his skill giving his skills a bigger chance of being over felated. The fact is, just because Sirak wasn't spoken by a random sourcebook in such a light, it doesn't mean he simply wasn't as impressive, that's fallacious beyond belief, and closely mimics your vaunted 'absence of proof = proof of absence' belief.

Actually, it's quite impressive. Certainly moreso than Sirak.

Prove it. Quantify and substantiate the quote, and prove that Sirak doesn't fit the bill.

I need something concrete, Apollo. Several sources glorify Maul's combat related skills. Excelling in 'lightsaber and Force-assisted abilities' isn't the same as 'putting them to the utmost', like Maul has.

Point is, both are mainly dedicated to their swordsmanship, not just Maul, which was exactly my point, and all that your original point proved for Maul.

Really, Sirak isn't as skilled as Maul. Physically, he's by far his inferior.

Nonsense. When Maul can move in blurs and still maintain the focus and control to keep up with the insane level of speed in demanding situations such as lightsaber duels, get back to me.

It speaks for them that - when numbering two - their presence had a far greater effect on both the Force and the Jedi than the New Sith Order [numbering in, what? the hundreds? thousands?] or Bane ever did.

Again, not relevant, this thread and I are dealing with saber combat. It seems you keep on trying to change the subject, draw out the debate, and spring up a completely different debate, when there's no need to. Keep your feeling on how impressive the TPM Sith Order were in terms of the force to either yourself, or a relevant thread.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
LOL, you seem to have adopted Darth Sexy's insane quoting skills. 😛 (JK)

Anyways, clearly you did, and you're just trying to save your ass now (I honestly don't know why though, it's not that big a deal where mistakes are concerned) because given that I went out of my way to include the fact that Kenobi was also in a rage, thinking that I'm in any way trying to be misleading is 100% bad reading comprehension on your part.

Gideon, come one now man, I expect better from you. Firstly, Sirak is a minor character in just one book, whereas Maul is a movie character, one of the most popular EU characters, with about 4 of his own novels, a film partially dedicated to him, his own comic book series, and [b]tons of reference material commenting on his skill giving his skills a bigger chance of being over felated. The fact is, just because Sirak wasn't spoken by a random sourcebook in such a light, it doesn't mean he simply wasn't as impressive, that's fallacious beyond belief, and closely mimics your vaunted 'absence of proof = proof of absence' belief.

Prove it. Quantify and substantiate the quote, and prove that Sirak doesn't fit the bill.

Nonsense. When Maul can move in blurs and still maintain the focus and control to keep up with the insane level of speed in demanding situations such as lightsaber duels, get back to me.

Sorry, Maul>Sirak by a huge margin
B-B-B-BUT! BLURS!
too ****ing bad, you ignorant moron. You've lost. As usual

Ok, I've kind of got a new policy on not replying to argument highjackers that don't know what they're talking about, so that was a huge waste of time, and I'm not replaying to any of that.
[Nai/Lightsnake]Ups![/Nai/Lightsnake]

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
Ok, I've kind of got a new policy on not replying to argument highjackers that don't know what they're talking about, so that was a huge waste of time, and I'm not replaying to any of that.
[Nai/Lightsnake]Ups![/Nai/Lightsnake]

This forum should have a policy on limiting incompetent piss poor debater posts to 5 a day so they don't waste expensive bandwidth.

That's great, it should also limit the posts of losers who spend all day on forums, because let's face it, 16 posts a day is gonna be wasting a **** load of 'expensive bandwidth.'

By the way I'm thinking people need to familiarise themselves with how the 'Negative Proof' fallacy works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
That's great, it should also limit the posts of losers who spend all day on forums, because let's face it, 16 posts a day is gonna be wasting a **** load of 'expensive bandwidth.'

Seeing as how you're the leading poster on this forum, you're basically repeating what I've stated already, in which your posts should be limited so your stupidity is kept to a minimum.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
By the way I'm thinking people need to familiarise themselves with how the 'Negative Proof' fallacy works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof

I think you need to familiarize yourself with the rules of debate and common sense before you try and help out the others.

They all suck, Revan would come in and kill them all

Yes, Nebaris. Thanks for admitting you can't do a damn thing when all the official material is against you, reasoned arguments are made that own you, and...oh, yeah, you're a liar and a coward.

Pathetic. Really sad

Originally posted by LORD JLRTENJAC
They all suck, Revan would come in and kill them all

None of these people suck, and Revan would go down hard against all four of these guys.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes, Nebaris. Thanks for admitting you can't do a damn thing when all the official material is against you,

Yeah, clearly you have some next way of reading people's post, I'll post what I said again for the dummies of the forum who couldn't read it the first time: Ok, I've kind of got a new policy on not replying to argument highjackers that don't know what they're talking about, so that was a huge waste of time, and I'm not replaying to any of that.
[Nai/Lightsnake]Ups![/Nai/Lightsnake]

reasoned arguments are made that own you, and...oh, yeah, you're a liar and a coward.

I'm a coward? 😂 Lol, what an odd guy... That was some weird shit to call someone on an internet forum. Anyways, there's a reason why I often call you LiarSnake, and it's because you're a big fat liar. We both know that the only reason you're calling me it now is because of the number of times I actually caught you out on lies, and it seems you somewhat feel that calling me the same will convince people that I'm the liar, and not you. LiarSnake, try again, and try harder, because it's really not working. Now you can call me a liar all you want, but the difference between us is that when I originally labelled you a liar, I backed up what I said and posted links of where you clearly originally lied. You never did such a thing, all you did was constantly call me a liar without backing anything up.

Pathetic. Really sad

I'm pathetic? Ok, let's put things into perspective.

Me = Guy who can form his own opinion, and accepts that others have different ones.

You = Guy who lets official LFL employees make up his mind for him, and cries when people don't agree, and forms grudges against said people.

Really, you're the only pathetic one here. I don't think even Darth Sexy is as pathetic as you. Seriously, get a life. You're lame, and you're getting lamer and lamer every day.

Says the biggest joke on this forum. Way to go forum clown.

I think the main point is while its fine to speculate and have your own opinions, they don't mean much in a debate when going against, as you said, an official statement. If a LFL official states something, its just that...official. I'm all for people forming their own opinions and everything, but what place do they have in a debate? Really? If they go against an official statement, they're thrown out.