that is obviously close, but i would go with the Count, he has shown greater force powers.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/445610_1-rots-mace-windu-vs-rots-count-dooku
Originally posted by kiddo44
that is obviously close, but i would go with the Count, he has shown greater force powers.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/445610_1-rots-mace-windu-vs-rots-count-dooku
Greater? Not so sure. More? Yes.
Dooku has used lightning on many occasions, casually choked Quinlan, brought down Asajj with one finger, used the force to rid himself of poisonous spores, used the force to stop Grievous from dying, his force pushes have been compared to stone walls, and, he has even put Yoda through some stress when Yoda initially blocked Dooku's lightning.
Also, he had 70+ years of learning from either Yoda (the most powerful Jedi), or Sidious (the Granddaddy of all Sith), and probably learned more than would be expected in those decades, due to his lust for power and him being a prodigy (along with access to all sorts of Holocrons).
Dooku, also, despite being a gentleman, knows how to fight dirty when it is called for (the infamous "Kenobi chuck", breaking a students arm in a force competition as a Padawan, and having droids interfere when he Mace confronted him [same with Kenobi]).
Mace, however, has the physical, mental (thanks to Vaapad), and style (Vaapad is great against darksiders, and kinetic enough to challenge Dooku blade to blade, plus there is the semi-divine Shatterpoint ability) advantages over Dooku. Mace would win in a saber fight (he even beat Sidious), and his raw force powers (stopping hundreds of tons of debris in an avalanche) are enough to hold off Dooku's own, so that he could win in an all out fight. However, Dooku would win in a straight force fight, thanks to his versatility.
If this post has gotten too off topic, just skip the last paragraph, and it is all relative.
Also, for today: **** parallel sentence structure.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Ox provided it. Anyways, Dooku was tired from Anakin (whether you want to accept it or not) and still stood toe-to-toe with is former master. If you downplay that feat, Ox will be outside your window tonight with a machete and a plastic Dooku lightsaber from Toys R Us...i know...my screen is still ripped.
😂 -Thats one of the funniest things i ever heard.
Being able to school a handful of Sith minions is hardly such an extraordinary display that would even rank him remotely near to Count Dooku in power.
Yes, Kol destroyed seven untalented lackeys, which would've been wonderful had his fourteen year old son not be able to completely curbstomp one of them only using his "Foot of Fury".
I would be rather shocked if a Jedi master like Kol Skywalker wasn't able to defeat that many enemies, given he has many more years of training than his son, and Shado Vao (who both had only ten years of basic training, considering they were young padawans), who - even when outnumbered - managed to overwhelm their adversaries.
As I've made crystal clear before it's impressive, but certainly not overly so to the point where he can contend, or rather beat the top dogs of the prequel era. That's just a ludicrous assumption to make based on that feat alone. I can see that darthsith has acknowledged (termed loosely) they were "weak", but the point I'm making is then it's no reason to assert Kol can defeat Tyranus in a lightsaber match, much less an all out fight (where the ball is in Tyranus' corner, with his vast power and abilities of the Force).
Really, this battle isn't 'close' in the least bit, inasmuch as Count Dooku firmly takes all three.
Originally posted by vader11
Kol seems better than Dooku.
I disagree completely. Show me where Kol has displayed powers on the level of Count Dooku. Show me where he's declared to be one of the strongest beings that Star Wars has ever known, or even one of the strongest Jedi. Indeed, show me where he has demonstrated the capabilities to withstand Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, and then fend off a Jedi master of Yoda's caliber for an amount of time.
Get back to me once you turn on the power switch in your brain, and use it.
Originally posted by darthsith19
One and three go to Kol
According to your personal hard-on for Kol Skywalker?
None go to Kol.
there were Stormtroopers there, too
Yeah, a batch of non-Force sensitives accompanied an equally weak batch of Force sensitives, huzzah for Kol Skywalker and his posse. *rollseyes*
Dooku could likely give him a decent or good fight in 1 and 3, though.
You're a little delusional here. The only "decent" fighting would be from Kol's end, as he's the one who's losing here. Of course, I'm giving him some leeway here in his powers, considering we know virtually nothing about his prowess in the Force (based on what we know, the third round wouldn't differ much from that of the duel on the Invisible Hand with Obi-Wan Kenobi).
LOE states that Dooku was often "hard-pressed to defeat the General." Grievous has killed many Jedi, but not all at once and never as many at once as Kol did
Hardly. Labyrinth of Evil doesn't remark that he "often" had difficulty handling General Grievous, it actually says that "there had been moments", which is a huge leap backwards from "often" (insomuch as it implies he was constantly pushed near/to his upper limit). Even then, having trouble doesn't necessarily equate to fully exerting himself.
By the way, this numbers game you're playing is asinine to say the least. Grievous may not have killed a number of foes on the scale of Kol, but you have to take into account who said foes were. Kol Skywalker fought numerous makeshift Sith goons (who's powers are even less than elementary schooled padawans), Grievous defeated five powerful Jedi, including two Council members, as well as Aayla Secura. The difference in strength is comparable to that of a third degree black belt to a petty street thug.
TPM novel stated that Qui-Gon rivaled Mace in saber combat, so that's not extremely impressive, as Kol could have beaten Qui-Gon as well.
Alright then. Since you know the source, providing a quote should be no problem.
Dooku may have gotten slightly stronger, what makes you say that he got stronger when he turned to the dark side, anyways?
For one, as Darth Subjekt has already given, Count Dooku was directly described by narration to be exactly "one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history", and then it goes on to note that he's "an even greater Sith". And even if I disregarded the quote, it's illogical to assume otherwise. The dark side of the Force is the path to power, which is why we see Anakin perform better when giving into his emotions (as well, the same case applies for his son, and Obi-Wan Kenobi). It's indisputable what the stronger side of the Force is, which would be Dark, not Light.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Greater? Not so sure. More? Yes.
The statement was: "he has shown greater Force powers". Which is absolutely correct.
And as it stands, nothing suggests that Kol Skywalker possesses the capabilities to match Count Dooku's exceptional strength in the Force.
Oh, and for anyone who wants to play quote or feat wars (darthsith):
Originally posted by Advent
Dooku is called by narration to be exactly "one of the most respected and powerful Jedi [b]in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history", and is stated to be "an even greater Sith" (by narration, and Yoda's dialogue indicates this as well); albeit, it's true he's not "number 2" of the era, but he's what? Like the fifth best in an era where the Jedi Order is at its prime? Above the likes of Obi-Wan, Grievous, Sora, Maul, etc. A little more impressive [than Kol Skywalker, who I wouldn't even rank above Obi-Wan, Grievous, or Darth Maul], I'd say.Let's see, his displays of Force mastery suggests his power is tremendous (Dooku choked out Komari Vosa). There's the fact ROTS Obi-Wan isn't even a match for Dooku's Force power, he was owned at literally the flick of the wrist:
"He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall."
Also note that he did this while fending off Anakin. He also did tool Asajj Ventress, who we know is pretty powerful. Not the strongest, but still. And he also - with one finger - brought Ventress down to her knees:
"Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain. Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor. "
So, we have a flick of the wrist, a tap of the finger, patting motion. "Strong in the Force this one is", eh? From the AOTC novelization, when he puts Anakin out of commission for a time:
"Dooku's hand shot out toward the charging Jedi, sending forth a Force push as solid as any stone wall, and a burst of blue Force lightning. With a wave of his hand, Dooku sent Anakin flying across the room, to crash into a distant wall, where he slumped down, dazed.
He was able to completely revitalize himself using just the Force (ROTS novel), suggesting he doesn't need some dumbass Jedi captives to do it. We know he's obviously a proficient Force lightning user by his displays in AOTC, and other various things. He was able to own Sora Bulq, and knock him out with Force lightning:
As seen in the background is Tholme, who himself is no weakling was battling with Sora Bulq 2-on-1, and even so Dooku still beat Sora, and right after spared Tholme, only of course, after owning him with his saber as well:
Really though, Dooku has a vast amount of training, and experience over Malak. Roughly 80+ years of it. Since we know he was trained as a youngling, he has about 70+ years experience as a Jedi, and 13 years as a Sith Lord. Now, we know experience definitely isn't everything, however, to deny it gives an advantage is purely ridiculous. For example, throughout those years - he is stated to know "Every weakness of Ataru" (his duel against Yoda obviously didn't end in a victory, however, Yoda's pure skill is probably better than anything).
And within those years, has mastered Makashi - the lightsaber to lightsaber form - to it's highest degree. Admittedly, forms are necessity for victory, however, it's clue that Dooku's lightsaber skills are no joke.
He has also bested Mace Windu in personal combat before, now Windu wasn't at his peak, however, he still beat him (it's kind of irrelevant to even bring up, but just to add to the fact). He's also described as a "consummate planner, consummate duelist." Consummate meaning perfect or to the highest degree. Clearly Dooku's skill with a lightsaber is amazing. Even Yoda comments on his skills:
"Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!"
Calling him the strongest student, and one that has learned the most. We also know Dooku is more powerful than Grievous, who has slain numerous Jedi Masters with ease (Council member as well), Asajj Ventress, and so on. [/B]
And I have plenty more ammunition in the bag.
At the moment, I believe they are incomparable. The sources are uneven, with everything going in Dooku's favour. We don't even know anything about the Sith Kol decimates in his last stand, yet Dooku's backstory is quickly being uncovered to rack in the money from enthusiastic fans.
Maybe in a few years, we will have a name and a backstory for each of those Sith Kol kills, and he might be comparable to Dooku, regardless of if he is stronger or not.
I will say this now in Kol's favour though, as weak a point as it is; he is a Skywalker.
This idle speculation is all good, and well, but it has no room in such a thread like this. Based on what we do know, Count Dooku takes the cake in all three matches (and there's no logical deduction or reasoning possible that would place him on par, or even above him).
Originally posted by exanda kane
I will say this now in Kol's favour though, as weak a point as it is; he is a Skywalker.
If that's not a joke, you're a ****ing idiot.
Originally posted by Advent
This idle speculation is all good, and well, but it has no room in such a thread like this. Based on what we do know, Count Dooku takes the cake in all three matches (and there's no logical deduction or reasoning possible that would place him on par, or even above him).If that's not a joke, you're a ****ing idiot.
Grow up kid. Who's the one getting touchy over Star Wars nostalgia?
If you dish out the insults, you've got to be prepared to show some integrity kiddo.
Fact is, hardly anything is known about Kol Skywalker and if you really think the writers of the Legacy series are going to let an ancestor of one of pop cultures most iconic heroes, Luke, die a really underwhelming death with no show of that elusive Skywalker spirit, then you are very much mistaken.
One day, there will be a demand from fans to find out more about Kol Skywalker and the floodgates for OTT displays of manga-style NJO magic will have opened.
