Originally posted by Gideon
Sorry, but no. He overcame Count Dooku in a legitimate duel with laughable ease. He is at the very, very least on par with Yoda in lightsaber skills.
I'm not going to argue whether or not the duel with Dooku was legitment. We've been arguing it since the movie came out and I doubt we'll ever settle it. That's beside the point though.
However, Anakin lost to Obi-wan. Obi-wan's near equal, Kit Fisto, was pwned by Sidious; who is inferior to Yoda in a saber duel, in seconds. The final point is that Yoda was the "most fearsome for the darkness had ever known." That includes Anakin "in teh zone" and the ROTS novel also puts Yoda as the apex of lightside power and Sidious as the apex of darkside power. Yoda simply outclasses him.
I'm not going to argue whether or not the duel with Dooku was legitment. We've been arguing it since the movie came out and I doubt we'll ever settle it. That's beside the point though.
No, we haven't been arguing it. Advent and I have been proving it, you have been denying it; there's a difference. She and I have quotes from the commentaries, the novelization, and the screenplay. What do you have? Ah, yes... the fact that Anakin couldn't beat Obi-Wan. That certainly tips the scales.
However, Anakin lost to Obi-wan.
Must we delve back into this argument? Obi-Wan was being knocked around the entire time. He won because he wasn't cocky [like Dooku], he used his head, he knows Anakin like the back of his damn hand, oh and - I almost forgot - he's the master of Soresu. Y'know, the defensive form? The same form that Dooku was forced to overcome with the Force instead of a lightsaber? The same form that would naturally be effective against Anakin?
Obi-wan's near equal, Kit Fisto, was pwned by Sidious;
Once again, you're comparing apples and oranges. Fisto wasn't the master of the ultimate defensive form.
who is inferior to Yoda in a saber duel, in seconds.
Prove that Yoda > Sidious in lightsabers.
The final point is that Yoda was the "most fearsome for the darkness had ever known."
Get the quote right, Glentract: 'the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known' - meaning that Yoda > Jedi Anakin in power [no one's disputing Yoda's superior Force mastery].
That includes Anakin "in teh zone"
We're discussing lightsaber skills, not Force powers [which Yoda is by far superior] or an all out fight [which Yoda would win].
and the ROTS novel also puts Yoda as the apex of lightside power and Sidious as the apex of darkside power.
No. The novelization effectively labels Yoda 'the most powerful Jedi' and Sidious 'the most powerful Sith'. No one is disputing Force powers, and no one said that the most powerful Jedi and most powerful Sith must be equals.
Yoda simply outclasses him.
In a Force fight? You're damn right. In a lightsaber fight? Nope.
Glentract, GL himself has stated that "Dooku thinks he's just going to fight him". It contradicts LOE, the novel, the script, wherever the other proof that Dooku knew it was a set up was in. GL's words override any other source, including but not excluding the ROTS script, novel, LOE and anywhere else where it was stated that Dooku knew that it was a set up. What is so hard to understand about this?
Anyways:
1. Anakin wins if he's in teh zone. If not, Yoda likely wins. Either one is close, though.
2. Yoda, not to hard.
3. Yoda, pretty close, though.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Glentract, GL himself has stated that "Dooku thinks he's just going to fight him". It contradicts LOE, the novel, the script, wherever the other proof that Dooku knew it was a set up was in. GL's words override any other source, including but not excluding the ROTS script, novel, LOE and anywhere else where it was stated that Dooku knew that it was a set up. What is so hard to understand about this?
When did GL state that?
No, we haven't been arguing it. Advent and I have been proving it, you have been denying it; there's a difference. She and I have quotes from the commentaries, the novelization, and the screenplay. What do you have? Ah, yes... the fact that Anakin couldn't beat Obi-Wan. That certainly tips the scales.
You also have arrogance. If you'd pay attention you'd know that I also have quotes from multiple sources and that I've displayed them before. You've simply chosen to ignore them.
Must we delve back into this argument? Obi-Wan was being knocked around the entire time. He won because he wasn't cocky [like Dooku], he used his head, he knows Anakin like the back of his damn hand, oh and - I almost forgot - he's the master of Soresu. Y'know, the defensive form? The same form that Dooku was forced to overcome with the Force instead of a lightsaber? The same form that would naturally be effective against Anakin?
Obi-wan was not being knocked around the entire time. He was giving ground, AS IS THE COMMON THING TO DO WHEN USING SORESU. He was giving Anakin ground on purpose to draw him into a location that would allow him an advantage. Falling back was using his head and being the smarter fighter. Anakin being a dumbass isn't something that you can write off, it happened once it'll happen again. Especially when fighting an opponent many times smarter than Obi-wan.
You also forget that Anakin knows Obi-wan like the back of his hand. Every source states that the knew EACHOTHER! They DO NOT state that Obi-wan knew Anakin. Therefor there is ZERO NET ADVANTAGE for either Obi-wan or Anakin.
Why would Soresu being any better against Djem So than Djem So Would be against Soresu?
Once again, you're comparing apples and oranges. Fisto wasn't the master of the ultimate defensive form.
I'm not comparing apples to oranges. Obi-wan's form has never been proven to have a specific advantage over Djem So.
Furthermore, you apparently haven't realized that I'm not stating that Kit would have done the same against Anakin. I'm saying that Obi-wan would have been butchered by Sidious just as Kit was; just as Anakin would be if they ever truly fought, even in a lightsaber fight.
Prove that Yoda > Sidious in lightsabers.
Yoda has knowledge of every single lightsaber form as well as more than 10x Sidious' experince and has presumably faced far more opponents.
Sidious has until Yoda never fought an opponent of extreme caliber. The strongest person Sidious ever sparred as of ROTS was Maul, cause he was likely the only person.
Yoda on the other hand has sparred with Mace and Dooku, each of which are beyond the strongest person Sidious has ever sparred. Any fighter knows that when training you don't get better by fighter people half as good as you, you get better by fighting people who can really challenge you and push you to your limits. Sidious had no one who could do that because of his isolation, not because he was simply more powerful than everyone else. That's a massive advantage for Yoda.
Also note the simply fact that Sidious fled to the Senate Pods where the battle would swith from a lightsaber fight to a more Force-oriented one. The probable reason for this is Yoda was too strong with the saber, so Sidious fought him where he's best.
Get the quote right, Glentract: 'the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known' - meaning that Yoda > Jedi Anakin in power [no one's disputing Yoda's superior Force mastery].
That was directed at everyone in general, not just you. I know you areadly knew that, it was more for anyone who might claim Anakin could take him overall.
We're discussing lightsaber skills, not Force powers [which Yoda is by far superior] or an all out fight [which Yoda would win].
Again, directed at everyone in general, not you.
No. The novelization effectively labels Yoda 'the most powerful Jedi' and Sidious 'the most powerful Sith'. No one is disputing Force powers, and no one said that the most powerful Jedi and most powerful Sith must be equals.
Why would they have to be equals for my argument to work?
In a Force fight? You're damn right. In a lightsaber fight? Nope.
You really think Anakin would beat Yoda? Do you plan to raise any points for Anakin being better of your own or just continue arguing the points that I've already raised, cause I frankly don't see a thing shown here that puts Anakin as better. You can't just attack my case, you have to build one of your own.
You also have arrogance.
How witty. This is a perfect example of why you were 'the black sheep' among the Antedivulians - if they even considered you one of their own. They, if anything, had a penchant for witty remarks and sharp-tongued humor. You're seemingly incapable of both, so do us all a favor and not waste valuable text trying to insult me to ellicit laughter.
If you'd pay attention you'd know that I also have quotes from multiple sources and that I've displayed them before. You've simply chosen to ignore them.
You have quotes that specifically indicate that Count Dooku was still the better duelist and could have defeated Anakin? Even if you did, they would be retconned and rendered non-canon by Lucas's commentaries - but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt of providing me with these quotes. Who knows, then, maybe you and I can have Quote Wars?
Obi-wan was not being knocked around the entire time. He was giving ground, AS IS THE COMMON THING TO DO WHEN USING SORESU.
Ah, but that isn't always the case. Obi-Wan didn't 'give ground' when he was battling Grievous - who is a perpetual beast of overwhelming physical strength and reflexes, and in this case - you're right - he did. He gave all the ground. He knew he couldn't match Anakin in strength or power, and relied simply on his defense and experience.
He was giving Anakin ground on purpose to draw him into a location that would allow him an advantage.
'Allow him the advantage'? So, what you're admitting to is that Obi-Wan didn't have an advantage prior to that single incident in regards to the 'high ground'?
Falling back was using his head and being the smarter fighter.
Which, if you paid any attention, I already credited Obi-Wan with being. But he isn't the stronger or more powerful fighter.
Anakin being a dumbass isn't something that you can write off, it happened once it'll happen again.
...Right, so, I suppose I can say that - in a rematch - Dooku would be owned by Anakin yet again, since he was the cocky bastard during their duel? After all, "it'll happen once, it'll happen again".
Jeez, Glentract, sometimes I wonder why I even bother to debate with you. You end up saving me the trouble of proving my point.
Especially when fighting an opponent many times smarter than Obi-wan.
Many times smarter? How so? Certainly wiser, perhaps. But, again, if this were the case, Sidious owns everybody, Glentract. Ragnos, Kun, Luke, Yoda, Dooku, Mace... on and on...
You also forget that Anakin knows Obi-wan like the back of his hand. Every source states that the knew EACHOTHER! They DO NOT state that Obi-wan knew Anakin. Therefor there is ZERO NET ADVANTAGE for either Obi-wan or Anakin.
The difference is: Obi-Wan kept his cool and rationality about him the whole time, whereas Anakin was in "smash, kill!" mode and was obviously in no condition to actually use his knowledge of Obi-Wan to the best of his abilities. His arrogance clouded that, as best represented by the high ground incident: 'you underestimate my power!'
One could speculate that Anakin never really knew Obi-Wan at all.
Why would Soresu being any better against Djem So than Djem So Would be against Soresu?
Soresu is a defensive form. Obi-Wan mastered it to the degree that he was virtually impossible to kill in a lightsaber duel. Like I said, Count Dooku - the Makashi Master - could not overcome Obi-Wan's Soresu without using the Force.
I'm not comparing apples to oranges. Obi-wan's form has never been proven to have a specific advantage over Djem So.
Aside from the fact that it is a defensive form, whereas Djem So is offensive.
I'll get to the rest when I get back from school. Cya.
Originally posted by kamikz
No, he says he could've beaten him IF he had not been wounded on Mustafar. He couldn't at that point, or he would've been mentioned.
No, if he meant Anakin of the future he would have said it, yeah he said him getting messed up stopped that, b/c he lost his power then and could not do what he had intended.
He just said, "Anakin could have done it." And the making of ROTS book, "You have to be Yoda or Mace to hang with Sidious," "Anakin could have beat him."
No, what he meant was that if Anakin did not get wounded on Mustafar, he would reach his potential, thus becoming the most powerful force user (and person) ever in Star Wars history. Then he would be able to defeat Sidious. But at this time, nothing states he can do it.
And the book is wrong then, since GL himself (highest source of all) states that only Mace and Yoda can contend with him, and that Anakin could only do it if he had not been wounded on Mustafar.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that by "not wounded on Mustafar" means that Anakin would've grown stupidly strong, by not losing alot of his potential, not directly after the fight.
Originally posted by kamikz
[And the book is wrong then, since GL himself (highest source of all) states that only Mace and Yoda can contend with him, and that Anakin could only do it if he had not been wounded on Mustafar.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that by "not wounded on Mustafar" means that Anakin would've grown stupidly strong, by not losing alot of his potential, not directly after the fight. [/B]
Wrong, if he meant way in future he would said that, he just said he could have done it, and he said it more than once, and never said Anakin has the "potential to do it" just that he could have.