TPM Qui-Gon Jinn Vs. AotC Count Dooku

Yeah, not so hard, a push can be aimed at several persons at once.

1. It's not a part of their strategy. Unlike Dooku, who does use the force when outnumbered.

2. Even if they did, I doubt it would have great effect. A padawan and a somewhat good force user against one of the best ever known. Says itself...

No, that speaks for force knowledge and understanding of it. It clearly doesn't require THAT much potential, seeing how Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon themselfs could do it, neither with an amazing potential.

And Obi keeping up with Qui-Gon more likely downgrades Qui-Gon, seeing how we don't know shit about TPM Obi anyway, and he doesn't impress that much. Seriously, speed, jump and push are the most basic of powers, and none are really that powerful related in combat for padawan Obi-Wan.

And he might be good for a padawan, but "damn good"? What states that?

He got tooled by Maul except for when he used rage and surprised him, but Maul got to the point where he, from being beaten down to the highest degree from Sidious, really slaughtered, to almost besting him.

My point is, if Maul can defeat these two, not at full strength, and not by straining himself THAT much, Dooku could certainley do it easily.

Not only is Dooku ahead of him in saber combat, he is miles and miles ahead of him in force powers. I didn't see Qui-Gon nor Obi-Wan getting close to Maul in that either. They could do nothing to change the face of the battle through force powers.

And Dooku did use the force on Anakin and Obi-Wan in AOTC, he took Anakin out with ease, then duelled Obi and had a little fun. He was toying around in that battle.

and once again you are completly kidding yourself to think that it matters what form he uses. Padawan Kenobi could attack Dooku all he wants he is not strong enough in any way to even threaten him, he would be thrown immediatly. Kenobi in the TPM is a level 6 and not that strong in the force, using the darkside yes he could push Maul, but Dooku it wouldn't matter what he did, he would be gone quick.

Still awaiting proof of AOTC Anakin being a good margin above TPM Kenobi with the Force, as well.

So Kenobi after what 20 seconds is tired no expression ? Thats about how long he last in the movie, but later on is able to fight Anakin for about 10 minutes, yeah DS that makes alot of sense, im sure he got tired from that long fight with Dooku.

DS forgot to mention the line where Dooku completely regains his stamina using the force.

Jinn uses the Force on Dooku,

Kenobi, on the other hand, was one of the strongest Jedi of his era, bested Grievous and Vader and survived Order 66.

enraged, he was nearly even with Maul, and you can clearly tell that is is damn good for a padawan, at least by the time he's 25 years old.

So Kenobi is swinging at Dooku as fast as he can, which would be quite fast, since he uses Ataru

Dooku and Kenobi are tired.

And DS how many Magnaguards did Kenobi take out in ROTS?

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yes, however, if half his push is on Kenobi then Jinn may be able to block the half pushed at him. Or they could stand far enough away from each other to not let this happen.

Yes, he does do this, however, with the exception of the AOTC duel, he didn't use the Force right away, he engaged in saber combat first and used the Force later.

A good Padawan and one of the strongest masters in the order vs. one of the strongest Sith Lord's ever known? Could be close, but it doesn't need to be. Jinn uses the Force on Dooku, while Dooku is busy blocking his Force attacks Kenobi comes up on him with a saber. He distracts him, Jinn then rushes forward with his saber. Now they are engaged in saber combat and there will be no pwnage.

Neither with amazing potential? Qui-Gon was the best saber weilder his saber instructor had seen in 400 years. he rivaled Mace Windu. Not amazing potential? Kenobi, on the other hand, was one of the strongest Jedi of his era, bested Grievous and Vader and survived Order 66. Not amazing potential? Who are you kidding? Their not like Yoda's or Anakin's, but compared to tthe otehr 10 thousand Jedi in their order's, their potential is amazing. If one invent the Force Ghost technique then they have to be strong with the Force. Force Knowledge is the same thing.

How does is downgrade Qui-Gon? Because we don't know shit about Obi-Wan, but we do know shit about Qui-Gon so it would tell us some shit about Obi-Wan, wouldn't it. Speed, push, jump aren't powerful? Then what has Dooku done to be considered so good with the Force?

Nothing states it. Compare him to other padawans, ESB Luke, Zule Xiss, Scout, Etain-Tur Mukan, ect. and he is damn good. Also the fact that he was like a day away from becoming a Knight and the afct that, when enraged, he was nearly even with Maul, and you can clearly tell that is is damn good for a padawan, at least by the time he's 25 years old.

Kenobi did get tooled, however, not much more so than Qui-Gon did, though some. Kenobi got kicked twice, Jinn got kicked once. In the rest of the film when the fight battle droids and such Qui-Gon doesn't appear to be a great deal above Kenobi, which speaks for his power as well.

Maybe he could do it easily, though only because of the ataru thing. Without that and it wouldn't be easy, though not hard, either. Maul had the advantage of the double-bladed lightsaber, remember.

Dooku is in no way miles ahead of Maul in saber combat. Maul nearly killed Sidious in a duel and beat Anoon Bondara, who is referred to as the order's finest swordsman. Dooku > Maul in saber combat, but it is definitely close.

He didn't use it in the actual duels, just at the beginning. So why would/could he use the Force against Jinn and Kenobi once they engage him in saber combat. Kenobi also had to be very tired when he fought Dooku in AOTC. Look at all he had been through, and likely without food or water for how many days? And little sleep as well. He had to have been exhausted.

Yeah? And how long will they keep up with that? Seriously, Kenobi who failed all the time to parry a push from Darth Maul, will not in a thousand years, parry a halfly powered push from Dooku. Dooku toyed people all the time, he lifted a FINGER to ragdoll Assaj. Assaj > TPM Obi, by alot.

I only argued what Dooku COULD do if he wanted to. Not what he did once, and might do again.

A good padawan who has shown us nothing but basics, and a master who has done the same, vs someone who stood toe to toe with Yoda (and even made him strain a bit on parrying his lightning).
If Jinn will use the force on him, of course Dooku is going to counter it. If they are going to use the force, it'll be at the same time, not "Dooku's turn, Qui-Gon's turn". Dooku WILL win that duel, and Qui-Gon will be taken down. He could lightning his ass, or win a push duel easily, or just choke him ala ROTS, and handle the incoming padawan Obi the same way he did ROTS Anakin.

I fail to see how being a good swordsman equals potential? It only requires dedication, Anoon Bondara didn't show extreme potential or force mastery, did he? Did Maul? Is there no reason to why Obi-Wan almost didn't get a trainer? Was it because his amazing potential? Not really....
And what Obi-Wan did in ROTS, after 13 more years, dedication and war, does not equal to his potential. I have not once seen Obi-Wan do anything impressive with the force, not once something that should tell me, "Damn, he is easily above most jedi". Above them, yes, but not amazingly so.

And I don't agree. To have force knowledge does not equal having an amazing potential. The reason to why Qui-Gon discovered this is because he had different ways of seeing the force that no other jedi in the order shared. THAT is why he figured it out.

First of all, yes, if Qui-Gon does not show anything above a padawan in force powers, I would consider that a downgrade to his abilities. Second, I would especially consider that, seeing how NOTHING they did was impressive. Dooku has done other things than basics, but the most impressive thing is that he actually does such impressive forms of basic that he is considered one of the best. Do tell what is impressive with pushing 3 battle droids.

I don't know about half the comparisons to padawans you gave, but you cannot certainley compare him to ESB Luke, he had a week of training, tops.
And Obi got knighted since he defeated a sith, did he not? And that was not by skill, but by luck.

Qui-Gon is certainley above TPM Obi by a good margin in swordsmanship. Doesn't matter how many times they got kicked, he still had alot more trouble with Qui-Gon, and Qui-Gon was easily the better fighter, unless you wanna say that TPM could nearly equal Mace Windu by TPM? (Btw, before the age of 25, wasn't Mace a master?)

Yet Dooku has shown to be able to hold up both ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan in saber battle for a while, even doing as much as tripping Anakin during their fight. (Not with the force. It's only in the novel)
These two would obliderate Qui-Gon and Obi, in mere seconds. And this is Dooku with his force powers, who would it not have been for Anakin's sickly strong powers saber skills, would've won that battle. He wouldn't need a double bladed saber, he has taken on multiple opponents more times than Maul has, and done better.

I didn't say he was "miles and miles" above Maul in SABER COMBAT, I said he was in force powers. I said he was above Maul in saber combat, only above, nothing else.
And I've already explained that the anger that is infused in people can make them grow sickly strong. Maul got obliderated by Sidious until this rage, and TPM Obi got murdered until his rage. It has no bearing on their normal fighting skills, since they won't be fighting in that rage.

Dooku can use force powers in a duel (ROTS, against Sora and Tholme), and he will likely have one of them taken out before they even come close, the other one gets toyed as hell.
And then I can say that Dooku would've done a hell of alot better against Yoda, because he had been fighting two great jedi in the order before this meeting.

Bottom line, if Dooku sends out a push, one hand against Qui-Gon, one against Obi, they WILL get knocked down. Maybe not instantly, seeing how they might counter it by a little, but they will lose whatever ground they may hold, and they WILL die eventually. They don't stand a chance in a force fight, not a chance, even together, and the moment they would try to get close in it, he will get them.
I don't see how Obi-Wan would parry it at all. Dooku is easily many times stronger than Maul is, who Obi could not parry a push from at all. One hand from Dooku is more than what he can handle, he will be smashed by "the brick wall" and sent flying into the another wall, and possibly knocked out instantly. Qui-Gon then proceeds to get tooled.

In a saber fights, he wins, not super easily, but he wins.

that would have no effect

Nobody doubts how good Kenobi was as a master, but this is a padawan.

correct, and this is why Maul and Dooku are not close, b/c it would not matter what TPM Kenobi would do to Dooku, he would never be close to even.

B/C he uses Ataru
roll eyes (sarcastic) , that would mean nothing, it would not matter if Padawan Kenobi was using Vaapad, stop acting like Dooku would have trouble with a Padawan b/c of his saber form.

How do you get tired from 30 seconds of fighting?? In the movie thats about how long it last, go watch it. In the novel its a long fight, but Dooku gets power back.

And DS how many Magnaguards did Kenobi take out in ROTS?

Yeah? And how long will they keep up with that?

Seriously, Kenobi who failed all the time to parry a push from Darth Maul, will not in a thousand years, parry a halfly powered push from Dooku.

And, while Kenobi was exhausted, he left an opening over for Maul to use the Force. Kenobi was tired and wasn't expecting a Force attack. Not being able to parry the push in this instance hardly downgrades him.

Dooku toyed people all the time, he lifted a FINGER to ragdoll Assaj. Assaj > TPM Obi, by alot.

A good padawan who has shown us nothing but basics, and a master who has done the same, vs someone who stood toe to toe with Yoda (and even made him strain a bit on parrying his lightning).

If Jinn will use the force on him, of course Dooku is going to counter it. If they are going to use the force, it'll be at the same time, not "Dooku's turn, Qui-Gon's turn". Dooku WILL win that duel, and Qui-Gon will be taken down. He could lightning his ass, or win a push duel easily, or just choke him ala ROTS, and handle the incoming padawan Obi the same way he did ROTS Anakin.

I fail to see how being a good swordsman equals potential? It only requires dedication, Anoon Bondara didn't show extreme potential or force mastery, did he? Did Maul? Is there no reason to why Obi-Wan almost didn't get a trainer? Was it because his amazing potential? Not really....

And what Obi-Wan did in ROTS, after 13 more years, dedication and war, does not equal to his potential. I have not once seen Obi-Wan do anything impressive with the force, not once something that should tell me, "Damn, he is easily above most jedi". Above them, yes, but not amazingly so.

And I don't agree. To have force knowledge does not equal having an amazing potential. The reason to why Qui-Gon discovered this is because he had different ways of seeing the force that no other jedi in the order shared. THAT is why he figured it out.

First of all, yes, if Qui-Gon does not show anything above a padawan in force powers, I would consider that a downgrade to his abilities. Second, I would especially consider that, seeing how NOTHING they did was impressive. Dooku has done other things than basics, but the most impressive thing is that he actually does such impressive forms of basic that he is considered one of the best. Do tell what is impressive with pushing 3 battle droids.

I don't know about half the comparisons to padawans you gave, but you cannot certainley compare him to ESB Luke, he had a week of training, tops.

And Obi got knighted since he defeated a sith, did he not? And that was not by skill, but by luck.

Qui-Gon is certainley above TPM Obi by a good margin in swordsmanship. Doesn't matter how many times they got kicked, he still had alot more trouble with Qui-Gon, and Qui-Gon was easily the better fighter, unless you wanna say that TPM could nearly equal Mace Windu by TPM? (Btw, before the age of 25, wasn't Mace a master?)

Yet Dooku has shown to be able to hold up both ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan in saber battle for a while, even doing as much as tripping Anakin during their fight. (Not with the force. It's only in the novel)

These two would obliderate Qui-Gon and Obi, in mere seconds.

And this is Dooku with his force powers, who would it not have been for Anakin's sickly strong powers saber skills, would've won that battle.

And I've already explained that the anger that is infused in people can make them grow sickly strong. Maul got obliderated by Sidious until this rage, and TPM Obi got murdered until his rage. It has no bearing on their normal fighting skills, since they won't be fighting in that rage.

Dooku can use force powers in a duel (ROTS, against Sora and Tholme), and he will likely have one of them taken out before they even come close, the other one gets toyed as hell.

And then I can say that Dooku would've done a hell of alot better against Yoda, because he had been fighting two great jedi in the order before this meeting.

Bottom line, if Dooku sends out a push, one hand against Qui-Gon, one against Obi, they WILL get knocked down. Maybe not instantly, seeing how they might counter it by a little, but they will lose whatever ground they may hold, and they WILL die eventually. They don't stand a chance in a force fight, not a chance, even together, and the moment they would try to get close in it, he will get them.

I don't see how Obi-Wan would parry it at all. Dooku is easily many times stronger than Maul is, who Obi could not parry a push from at all. One hand from Dooku is more than what he can handle, he will be smashed by "the brick wall" and sent flying into the another wall, and possibly knocked out instantly. Qui-Gon then proceeds to get tooled.

Even if Padawan Kenobi does engage Dooku in a saber duel, that hardly stops the Count from using his force arsenal. In RotS he managed to throw Obi-Wan across the room with the force while fighting Anakin (Anakin being many times stronger than TPM Kenobi btw). It doesnt hurt that he duels with one hand, leaving the other open for the force, either.

Just thought it needed to be said, seeing that seems to be a major point you are basing your argument on.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Even if Padawan Kenobi does engage Dooku in a saber duel, that hardly stops the Count from using his force arsenal. In RotS he managed to throw Obi-Wan across the room with the force while fighting Anakin (Anakin being many times stronger than TPM Kenobi btw). It doesnt hurt that he duels with one hand, leaving the other open for the force, either.

Originally posted by darthsith19
In ROTS he managed to kick Anakin aside and then took Kenobi out with the Force. Even if he manages to kick Qui-Gon aside in this case, Kenobi in TPM uses Ataru, which relies on speed. Kenobi's fast strikes won't leave Dooku an opportunity to use the Force, at least until Kenobi starts to get tired.

Dooku can easily fend off TPM Kenobi with one hand, giving him plenty of opportunity to use the force with the other. I think you are grossly underestimating Dooku here.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Dooku can easily fend off TPM Kenobi with one hand, giving him plenty of opportunity to use the force with the other. I think you are grossly underestimating Dooku here.

Yes 😐

Yes 😛

You get tired from 30 seconds of fighting maybe because you have been fighting countless battle droids before than duel. But mainly because Lucas says so so it goes.

Are you being blantely arrogant on purpose or does it just come naturally to you? Name one instance when I stated that Dooku would have trouble with a padawan, much less because of the padawan's saber form. You, however, have stated that he ahd trouble with a padawan (AOTC Anakin). So quit being ignorant and show me where I said that.

Kenobi in TPM uses Ataru, which relies on speed. Kenobi's fast strikes won't leave Dooku an opportunity to use the Force, at least until Kenobi starts to get tired.

Originally posted by darthsith19

"DARTH MAUL seems to have the upper hand as OBI-WAN grows weary." - TPM script

And, while Kenobi was exhausted, he left an opening over for Maul to use the Force. Kenobi was tired and wasn't expecting a Force attack. Not being able to parry the push in this instance hardly downgrades him.

You know, that's almost good proof, but I was read Dark Rendezvous. Asajj wasn't trying to block Dooku's attack so your point is moot.

Kenobi has shown us skills not terribly far from Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon was the best lightsaber wielder his lightsaber instructor has seen in 400 years. he invented the Force Ghost move and rivaled Mace Windu. How are either of these guys only shown us basics? Dooku in no way made Yoda strain and yes, he went toe-to-toe with him and was forced to flee after a minute.

Then they will go at it in a Force duel and meanwhile Kenobi can get to Dooku in mere seconds, that's quicker than Jinn will be taken out in. You are seriously underestimating Qui-Gon here, and Kenobi (to a lesser extent). Jinn can block lightning with his saber. Kenobi can get to Dooku far quicker than Qui-Gon can be killed with Force Choke. He won't be able to handle an incoming Kenobi and a Qui-Gon at the same time. If he switches his attention to an incoming Kenobi, he could take him out [b]temporarily with lightning if Kenobi doesn't know to block it with his saber, but while he's doing that (or trying to do it) Jinn can Force Push him and then leap at him with a blade. Dooku would likely get up in time but then it'd be a saber duel, not a Force duel. If Kenobi blocked the lightning then it's 2 on 1 and is close with Dooku winning. If Kenobi has been taken out and Dooku goes all out on Jinn then he'll *might* be able to take him out before Kenobi gets back up, but I doubt it, and once Kenobi gets back up it will be, once again, 2 on 1, saber duel.

Bondara and Maul weren't shown as not having Force Mastery, either. It's likely impossible to be the order's finest swordsman and not have at least decent Force Skills. Kenobi not being trained is bullshit, the movies should contradict this because they show he is very pwoerful, but maybe it was because he was very rash and had nothing to do with his potential anyways.

He parried Anakin's Force Push, and Anakin collapsed a football stadium sized room just by yelling. He Force Pushed Grievous a huge distance, and in Light and Dark he uses the Force to break water pipes even through a torture mask.

You have no proof of that. How does Force Knowledge and Force Potential differ from one another?

Except we know nothing of Kenobi's Force powers, as you stated yourself, so for all we know they could be close to Jinn's, however, we do know for a fact that Jinn's are exceptionally high. Why should we lower Jinn's just because a character of unknown strength seems close to him? Then we should put the unknown character to Jinn;s level, that makes a lot more sense and you know it. Jinn has learned how to become one with the Force, this is impressive, and he'd be on the Council if he wasn't so much of a maverick. Tell me what Dooku did that was so impressive.

ESB Luke is still a padawan and though he only had about a week of formal training he used his saber soom between ANH and ESB and also progressed very quickly. Name other padawans, then, who were above TPM Kenobi. I only know of Anakin, Bane, Kun, Ulic and perhaps Nomi? And those Jedi/Sith were legends.

True, but he was close to becoming a knight either way, so he should be pretty much on the level of knight as far as his abilities go anyways. [/B]

So, Maul should be the one tired as well, he fought two people, killed one, and even lost his saber. Note that this is Obi in his rage, he is alot better than normal TPM Obi-Wan.

Yet being able to ragdoll someone by lifting a finger is incredibly strong. Obi hasn't shown anything like it with all his strength.

Yeah, Qui-Gon was good with a saber, yet he got owned by Darth Maul, Dooku's inferior, plus the fact that Dooku can basically own someone who uses Ataru unless that person is Yoda. (Because he has extreme physical skills and force powers, as well as an unusual version of Ataru)
And Force Ghost does not work in combat, and you're gonna have to prove how you need to be extremley potential to use it, seeing how the only reason he did it was because he had other ways to see the force that no jedi before him used, thus no jedi before him could ever find out that way.
And you fail to prove how Obi-Wan by TPM could do anything like that, only because he SEEMS to be pretty equal to Qui-Gon in swordsmanship skills. Remember, you can't judge the actors, or Maul would own Sidious and Mace at once.

Yes, Dooku DID make Yoda strain a little in the first lightning attempt. Read the novel.

You seem to think that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon will have this perfectly planned, like they know exactly who their up against and gonna time this perfectly. For them to have such tactics would require them to have prep time, seeing how not once have they shown such tactics. However, using the force as Dooku is, doesn't.
All Dooku would really need is keep them both at bay. Listen, what is Obi gonna do against Dooku's push? He uses one hand on him, one on Qui-Gon. One hand with a freakin choke was more than enough to take out ROTS OBI-WAN, TPM Obi will not stand a chance.

First of all, that's exactly what I said, "decent force skills".
Second, neither Qui-Gon nor Obi-Wan was ever the most powerful saber wielders, they were just some of the top dogs.
Third, it does NOT contradict it. Obi-Wan is hard working, smart and has been taught well, he should be making it fine. I see nothing to put his force abilities very high above all average jedi, above, but not super above.

Pushing Grievous? Wow, anyone could do that. Maybe not to the extent that Kenobi did it, but watch the scene, we haven't seen a single jedi trying to use THAT much power in a push. He was really pushing himself to the edge. And don't try to use "Grievous can usually dodge push", there is nothing magical or homing to his push abilities, Grievous was just arrogant, slow, and got hit.

A water pipe? Holy shit, not. Jedi don't need to see to do anything, so the mask is irrelevant. And a water pipe, nothing incredible about that, hardly even good.

Stalemating a furious Anakin who does not have control over his emotions at all, and is extremely unstabel. Yeah.
Note the fact that Anakin during those moments where also in a rage, and was not activating any force powers, it was just his potential screaming, sort of. Anakin has never shown to break corridor halls ever again.

No, prove how Jinn is so good with the force. He has shown us NOTHING combat related except pushing droids, he has only showed us that he knows alot about it, and thanks to seeing only the living force and his unusual ways of it, he could discover the force ghost technique, it wasn't some freaking super potential traits.
I think we saw from Maul vs Obi and Qui-Gon, that they were pretty much useless when trying to take down other force users with force powers, or they would've tag teamed Maul and taken him down. We know that Dooku is far, far, far from useless.

The speed of how quickly you progress isn't all that matters. Obi, since he was damn dedicated when almost not getting to be a jedi (should tell enough), worked hard to achieve what he did. Anakin, who has the highest potential ever, still didn't achieve his skills as fast as Kun, Bane, Luke or any of those guys, yet he could be alot better.
Obi only proves that he is dedicated, not that he has super potential.

What Dooku have done that is impressive?
Choked ROTS Kenobi with one hand, kicking ROTS Anakin away, then knocking out Kenobi and crashing a balcony on him.
Tossing alot of things, including generators that are built in the wall and the roof, against Yoda.
Tripping a generator that Obi-Wan and Anakin couldn't even begin to stop with the force, and Yoda had to do it.
Taking out Anakin with lighting.
Taking out Sora with lightning.
Taking out Assaj with lightning.
Ragdolling Quinlan Vos.
Being commented by Yoda to be "the most taught in the force, and the greatest student".
Noted in Dark Rendevouz to have only "possible Mace Windu as his equal". (Remember, this is not TPM Windu that Qui-Gon "rivaled" (we do not know, since it is stated by Obi-Wan by the way, he is biased).

How can padawan Obi-Wan, who has shown us nothing in the force, being stated as the lesser of Qui-Gon Jinn who has not either shown us anything combat related in the force, hope to defend himself in the force from the 3rd best force user in the movies, when ROTS Kenobi failed to do so, and ROTS Anakin (Qui-Gon's superior BY FAR) failed to attack him during that time, and that was in the middle of their duel.

People thought that Mace Windu would be able to take out 10 jedi at once, yet Dooku fails to take out one above average master and one above average padawan? Lol?

Dooku for sure. I think qui-gon rocks and he is one of my favourites but the true is that dooku is just better.

countless droids?? we are talking about the ROTS fight where he got thrown, which you said happened b/c he was attacking him and not using his mastered saber form.

Originally posted by darthsith19
maybe because you have been fighting countless battle droids before the duel.

You keep saying that, you are overestimating saber forms, it would not matter what saber form he used, and i didn't say Anakin gave Dooku trouble, the author of the novel did.

So, Maul should be the one tired as well, he fought two people, killed one, and even lost his saber. Note that this is Obi in his rage, he is alot better than normal TPM Obi-Wan.

Yet being able to ragdoll someone by lifting a finger is incredibly strong. Obi hasn't shown anything like it with all his strength.

Yeah, Qui-Gon was good with a saber, yet he got owned by Darth Maul, Dooku's inferior, plus the fact that Dooku can basically own someone who uses Ataru unless that person is Yoda. (Because he has extreme physical skills and force powers, as well as an unusual version of Ataru)

And Force Ghost does not work in combat, and you're gonna have to prove how you need to be extremley potential to use it, seeing how the only reason he did it was because he had other ways to see the force that no jedi before him used, thus no jedi before him could ever find out that way.

And you fail to prove how Obi-Wan by TPM could do anything like that, only because he SEEMS to be pretty equal to Qui-Gon in swordsmanship skills. Remember, you can't judge the actors, or Maul would own Sidious and Mace at once.

Yes, Dooku DID make Yoda strain a little in the first lightning attempt. Read the novel.

You seem to think that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon will have this perfectly planned, like they know exactly who their up against and gonna time this perfectly.

For them to have such tactics would require them to have prep time, seeing how not once have they shown such tactics.

However, using the force as Dooku is, doesn't.
All Dooku would really need is keep them both at bay. Listen, what is Obi gonna do against Dooku's push? He uses one hand on him, one on Qui-Gon. One hand with a freakin choke was more than enough to take out ROTS OBI-WAN, TPM Obi will not stand a chance.

Second, neither Qui-Gon nor Obi-Wan was ever the most powerful saber wielders, they were just some of the top dogs.

Third, it does NOT contradict it. Obi-Wan is hard working, smart and has been taught well, he should be making it fine. I see nothing to put his force abilities very high above all average jedi, above, but not super above.

Third, it does NOT contradict it. Obi-Wan is hard working, smart and has been taught well, he should be making it fine. I see nothing to put his force abilities very high above all average jedi, above, but not super above.

Pushing Grievous? Wow, anyone could do that. Maybe not to the extent that Kenobi did it, but watch the scene, we haven't seen a single jedi trying to use THAT much power in a push. He was really pushing himself to the edge. And don't try to use "Grievous can usually dodge push", there is nothing magical or homing to his push abilities, Grievous was just arrogant, slow, and got hit.

A water pipe? Holy shit, not. Jedi don't need to see to do anything, so the mask is irrelevant. And a water pipe, nothing incredible about that, hardly even good.

Stalemating a furious Anakin who does not have control over his emotions at all, and is extremely unstabel. Yeah.

Note the fact that Anakin during those moments where also in a rage, and was not activating any force powers, it was just his potential screaming, sort of. Anakin has never shown to break corridor halls ever again.

Choked ROTS Kenobi with one hand, kicking ROTS Anakin away, then knocking out Kenobi and crashing a balcony on him.

Tossing alot of things, including generators that are built in the wall and the roof, against Yoda.

Tripping a generator that Obi-Wan and Anakin couldn't even begin to stop with the force, and Yoda had to do it.

Taking out Anakin with lighting.
Taking out Sora with lightning.
Taking out Assaj with lightning.

Ragdolling Quinlan Vos.

Being commented by Yoda to be "the most taught in the force, and the greatest student".

Noted in Dark Rendevouz to have only "possible Mace Windu as his equal". (Remember, this is not TPM Windu that Qui-Gon "rivaled" (we do not know, since it is stated by Obi-Wan by the way, he is biased).

How can padawan Obi-Wan, who has shown us nothing in the force, being stated as the lesser of Qui-Gon Jinn who has not either shown us anything combat related in the force, hope to defend himself in the force from the 3rd best force user in the movies, when ROTS Kenobi failed to do so, and ROTS Anakin (Qui-Gon's superior BY FAR) failed to attack him during that time, and that was in the middle of their duel.

People thought that Mace Windu would be able to take out 10 jedi at once

yet Dooku fails to take out one above average master and one above average padawan? Lol?

maybe because you have been fighting countless battle droids before the duel.

I still am waiting for the quote that Dooku can own someone who uses ataru.

Kenobi didn't have prep time with Dooku in AOTC but he came up with a plan, only Anakin didn't follow along with it. Qui-Gon will be a lot better at making up a plan than Kenobi was and TPM Kenobi will listen to Jinn and not be as stupid as Anakin was.

If his potential was so low that he was hardly trained, how could he ever become the 4th most powerful Jedi in the order?

This is true in ROTS he was number 4, which is why when you say in 10 years he did not progress much makes no sense at all.

Oh wow, choked someone who was tired, ROTJ Luke could use choke, it isn't really an advanced power, basically any dark Jedi can use it. Kicking Anakin away isn't a Force Power, seeing as it wasn't a Force Kick. Oh wow, telekinesis, he used telekinesis to drop a balcony, how impressive, nobody else could do that.

Obsession shows Mace to be above Dooku.

And how would Mace win with ease while Dooku would have trouble?? B/c of vaapad?? Its certainly not b/c Mace is stronger than Dooku with the force, b/c that is not true from the facts, and Dooku would win b/c he could get rid of padawan Kenobi w/ little effort b/c of his very strong force powers, no matter what saber form he is using.

Originally posted by darthsith19
That quote of mine proves that Kenobi will be able to stop Dooku from using the Force, it does [b]NOT, anywhere in it, say that Kenobi would give Dooku trouble. And I didn't state that Kenobi was tired in ROTS, George Lucas did.

Kenobi was more tired than Maul was, as shown in the script. Maul just has more endurance, it seems, plus he was feeding off the dark side for power, so was Kenobi but seeing as it was his first time using the dark side he couldn't use it anywhere near the level that Maul could.

Again, I've read the book where that happens and Asajj wasn't trying to block the attack at all.

He didn't get pwnd by Maul, for a while he was even driving Maul back. I still am waiting for the quote that Dooku can own someone who uses ataru.

Prove that the only reason he did it was because he viewed the Force differently. And he already did that which means he has to be strong in the Force, why couldn't he do something else strong then?

No, he wouldn't - just because Maul is faster doesn't mean that he'd own Sidious or Mace (plus Sidious moved his saber just as quickly or even more quickly in the Great Rotunda).

I'm not going to read the novel to see one thing. You brought it up - post a quote.

They will know exactly who their up against, as Dooku was Qui-Gon's master.

They didn't show tactics against Maul because they had no idea what they were up against and likely had never fought against a double bladed lightsaber before. Kenobi didn't have prep time with Dooku in AOTC but he came up with a plan, only Anakin didn't follow along with it. Qui-Gon will be a lot better at making up a plan than Kenobi was and TPM Kenobi will listen to Jinn and not be as stupid as Anakin was.

Prove that he can send out two separate Force Pushes at the same time.

I never said they were the most powerful, but now you're admitting that they were some of the top dogs?

If his potential was so low that he was hardly trained, how could he ever become the 4th most powerful Jedi in the order? Yes, the movie does contradict it.

Wrong. Grievous has magnetic feet - wasn't he standing on a metal platform? The blood of Syfo-Dyas in him also makes him immune to weak Force Attacks, and even with both of these things Kenobi was still able to Force Push him back many feet. That is very impressive.

The mask is NOT irrelevant. It is a torture mask. He had been wearying it for 20 days. The torture mask was actually imbued with dark side energy preventing Jedi from calling upon the Force by stopping them from concentrating. Yet Kenobi was still able to use the Force. This is impressive.

This is your rebuttal? 😆 It doesn't matter if he has no control over his emotions, he can still fight like a demon.

Oh, but he had no control over his emotions when he collapsed the hall, either! So he should be able to do more in his normal state! 🙄

Oh wow, choked someone who was tired, ROTJ Luke could use choke, it isn't really an advanced power, basically any dark Jedi can use it. Kicking Anakin away isn't a Force Power, seeing as it wasn't a Force Kick. Oh wow, telekinesis, he used telekinesis to drop a balcony, how impressive, nobody else could do that. 🙄

Your right, Jinn couldn't rip a little metal thing off of a wall, Dooku must be so uber! 🙄

Anakin was unconscious and Kenobi was injured to the point where he struggled to move a saber with the Force, so your point is moot. And Dooku merely crushed the base and let gravity do the rest.

Jinn could block lightning with his saber. Vos was able to use lightning without ever being taught how to. Lightning really isn't that impressive.

When was this, and was it with the Force or a saber?

Meaning he was the greatest as a student, this is impressive, though it doesn't mean he's uber as an adult.

Obsession shows Mace to be above Dooku. What's your point, anyways? Mace wouldn't pwn Qui-Gon and Kenobi, either, he'd win comfortably, Dooku would win with just a little trouble.

Kenobi was tired in ROTS and Anakin never tried to use the Force. TPM Kenobi couldn't block it but he could engage Dooku in saber combat while Jinn temporarily blocks it.

When was this?

You mean a strong master, one of the most powerful masters in the order. And, as I've stated numerous times, he will be able to take them out, it just won't be pwnage. [/B]

Yes, yet Maul is about 10 times weaker than Dooku when it comes to force. If Obi-Wan fails to parry one from him, I doubt he'd ever, in any state, parry one from Dooku.

And we have yet to see Obi-Wan lifting another force user at all.

I have explained this over and freaking over, he used the dark side which gave him a super boost in power. That boost of power was for example able to get Maul from getting owned by Sidious (not being able to move a single muscle), to almost beating him.

Yeah, it's kinda easy to understand, since he thinks of the living force, the force of the moment. It kinda makes sense if you think about it.
And wth would you say? That his "amazing potential" gave him some freakin super ability to become a force ghost? Isn't it obvious that it was all this shit about Qui-Gon viewing it entirely different has some kind of influense on how he is the only jedi ever able to do this, unlike anyone else. If it had anything to do with power as you say, he'd be the most powerful one, yet he's not even near that.
WTF? "And he already did that which means he has to be strong in the Force, why couldn't he do something else strong then", who said that because Qui-Gon view the force differently, he was strong in the force? No one, and that is ridicilous.

Yes it does, because he did not only show superior speed, but skill as well. Mace and Sidious sucked in the movies, yet we cannot base it on that. Ray Park >>>>>>>>>>> Sam L Jackson in swordfighting.

It states Yoda had to actually try pretty decently to parry it, then the other time he did it more easily. I don't have the book, can't post a quote, but the quote is here on KMC somewhere, not gonna find it for this debate.

No, they won't know "sith Dooku", only jedi Dooku. And they don't know his tactics.

Oh, I'm sure they went, "Hey, he got a double bladed saber, let's try to fight it", not.
Yeah, "you go slowly to the left, and...", Dooku was toying them, he'd pwn their ass as they start their conversations. I'm saying what Dooku would be able to do would he want to pwn their asses. People have already agreed on this forum that Dooku could take out ROTS Kenobi in seconds, so why would TPM be any different?

I'll end this "TPM Obi-Wan can parry his push" bull once and for all. From the Ep 3 novel.
"The slightest whipcrack of Dooku's power sent Obi-Wan crashing to the floor". It's not right, but it's something of those lines. See, ROTS Obi-Wan, TPM Obi's superior by miles and miles, couldn't parry "the slightest" form of Dooku's push, now you tell me TPM can parry a one handed push from Dooku?
That says it all.

WTF? Of course he can push two people at once. Watch TPM, Qui-Gon pushes four battle droids at once. There, proven.

I don't see the relevance of that, seeing how I never said pushing Grievous was weak, but rather that basically any jedi left with the oppertunity could do it, not to the full extent of Obi's power, but could do it to a good degree. Obi also spent about 2 seconds loading for this power. And I still don't see how this is relevant, when he couldn't parry the slightest push from Dooku by ROTS, where his force mastery as well as saber mastery has grown from "a clowns" to a master, as he notes during the fight in ROTS, where they first act as they did in AOTC, then change to their ROTS state. Even by AOTC, Obi is stronger than by TPM.

The mask is irrelevant, because it still didn't bring him to the degree that he couldn't use the force at all. A ****ing water pipe... 😂

It does matter if he was in control of his emotions. Go argue that with Advent would ya. And Anakin was never anything special at that time when it came to force powers, compared to other force top dogs.

You are arguing out of your ass. He had no control what so ever over that, he didn't think "I'm gonna do force lightning", he just cried out, and the force acted on instinct. In their duel, he tried to do an unfocused force push.

Choked someone who was tired? WTF? Obi-Wan was just as tired as Count Dooku, and it's a force user, no freaking pig.
Are you insane? When did I say "Dooku had powers that no one had", I gave ****ing impressive usage of those powers, unlike your "Obi crashed water pipes and pushed droids".
And kicking Anakin, a by far better fighter than Qui-Gon, and taking out Obi with the force at once, proves that this situation won't be much harder.

When Jinn to it at all, do it as fast, to such degree, and with such power as Dooku has, I'll give him credit. Until then, STFU!

Yeah, cause crushing about 2m of straight metal while fighting Yoda, and already fought two other jedi, in about 2 seconds, isn't impressive. I guess it's no "crushing water pipes", but impressive. 🙄

All this other is irrelevant, ROTS Obi couldn't parry the slightest of Dooku's powers. It's already established that ROTS Kenobi is a little better than Maul, which means he'd give Qui-Gon hell and beat him. Qui-Gon Jinn and TPM Obi will NOT be able to handle the force powers of Dooku. The END!

This debate feels freakin irrelevant, seeing how we both know Dooku will win, it's just "how easy".
But do answere that G-canon quote from the novelisation saying that Obi couldn't block the slightest whipcrack of Dooku's powers, and how he will be able to do it as a padawan while discussing tactics with Qui-Gon Jinn.

The quote you kamikz referred to is:
"He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall."

This quite clearly shows that a flick of Dooku's wrist absolutely destroyed RotS Kenobi. I dont see how TPM Kenobi, a far weaker incarnation, stands a hope in Hell against Dooku, especially if the Count decides to pul out all the stops.