Mace Windu (ROTS) vs Darth Vader (ANH)

Started by jollyjim3113 pages
jollyjim311 Scruffy Nerf Herder

Originally posted by Gideon
Jollyjim, for clarification: RotS Anakin/Vader doesn't tire.

True.

Nothing was ever expressed to be the same for cyborg-Vader.

He states so in his battle against the Dark Woman, and seeing as how it used to be the case, plus the fact that he has Sith alchemical substances pumping through him, I'd say it points that he doesn't tire and even becomes stronger as fights go on.

Furthermore, Mace overcame a more powerful Sith Lord [Sidious] based on properties that apply to any dark sider, including Vader.

Vader had roughly 80% of the power of Sidious after he had over two decades to study whatever knowledge the Empire's vast reaches could grasp, including the holocrons in the Jedi Temple. Plus Sidious fully amerced himself in the teachings of the Darkside for that whole time (paraphrased from the Complete Visual Guide), and didn't sleep, adding extra years worth of study over that time.
Also, it should be noted that Sidious was only defeated in a lightsaber battle and when the force powers came out, Sidious, even while confined to a small space and with Mace right next to him, was going to kill Mace.
It should be dually noted that you didn't account for whatever specific advantages that Vader has over Mace that Sidious did not, such as the physical strength to withstand Vaapad's power blow for blow.

Mace definately wins the saber fight

Agreed, but it won't be any free bacon. He will have to work for it.

and likely wins the all out fight as well.

He very well might, but Vader's intelligence and knowledge of Mace will keep him away from Mace if at all possible, and Vader could do enough damage to Mace with force powers to debilitate him or possibly kill him.

Manslayer Restricted

Mace definately wins in a saber fight but in an all out fight meaning you give everything you got to your opponent its likely vader wins. IF vader backs away and resorts to the force before getting hit by mace's vaapad

IOU Restricted
Vader had roughly 80% of the power of Sidious after he had over two decades to study whatever knowledge the Empire's vast reaches could grasp, including the holocrons in the Jedi Temple. Plus Sidious fully amerced himself in the teachings of the Darkside for that whole time (paraphrased from the Complete Visual Guide), and didn't sleep, adding extra years worth of study over that time.

as ive said before jollyjim, when such a statement is made, it talks purely about force power, and nothing else, so until you can prove that sidious became any more powerful during that time, id suggest ditching this point

Manslayer Restricted

Originally posted by IOU
as ive said before jollyjim, when such a statement is made, it talks purely about force power, and nothing else, so until you can prove that sidious became any more powerful during that time, id suggest ditching this point
Advent proved it

IOU Restricted

well maybe advent can provide the proof in this thread, because as far as i see it, there is none

realistically, sidious with his genius intellect (thus would learn things much quicker), huge and great knowledge base and about 6 decades worth of study and training would have reached his full potential by revenge of the sith

Manslayer Restricted

Originally posted by IOU
well maybe advent can provide the proof in this thread, because as far as i see it, there is none
PT sidious lightning couldnt instantly kill any body while he did during the OT. Knowledge = power as to what made revan and bane so powerful and RODV stated that sidious has all the time to study what he wants to

realistically, sidious with his genius intellect (thus would learn things much quicker), huge and great knowledge base and about 6 decades worth of study and training would have reached his full potential by revenge of the sith [/B][/QUOTE] Not really because there are alot of things he still hasnt learned yet till ROTJ. The visual guide already stated he became more powerful after doing studies in the dark side of the force by learning what has been encrypted in the holocrons

IOU Restricted
PT sidious lightning couldnt instantly kill any body while he did during the OT.

could you please elaborate. wheres it said that sidious' lightning couldn't instakill anybody during the PT, and who specifically did it during the OT?

Knowledge = power as to what made revan and bane so powerful and RODV stated that sidious has all the time to study what he wants to

no, knowledge is separate from power, knowledge simply improves execution of power and accelerates ones road to full potential, which is exactly what it did with bane. this however becomes irrelevant once uve reached your full potential, its something which u cant go beyond

Not really because there are alot of things he still hasnt learned yet till ROTJ.

so what? once youve reached your full potential, thats it. you cant actually become technically more powerful. u can improve execution of power, and u can become more powerful in different contexts, but not in the context that it is in when it says that vader is 80% of sidious in power, ie pure force power

The visual guide already stated he became more powerful after doing studies in the dark side of the force by learning what has been encrypted in the holocrons

context, my friend, context...

Manslayer Restricted

Originally posted by IOU
could you please elaborate. wheres it said that sidious' lightning couldn't instakill anybody during the PT, and who specifically did it during the OT?
Sidious couldnt kill mace windu instantly when he lashed out with his full power while in the OT era during ressurection, He instantly reduced 3 sith acolytes powerful enough to bring maul back from the dead to ashes the moment of impact which clearly indicated sidious DID grow stronger in the force

Originally posted by IOU

no, knowledge is separate from power, knowledge simply improves execution of power and accelerates ones road to full potential, which is exactly what it did with bane.
Which equates to sidious not reaching his full potential until DE. He did how ever become more powerful in the OT after studying deeper into the dark side of the force as well as the light learning to make his force powers far more lethel, Learning new techniques and mastering them yet despite doing that he still has not reached his full potential as the visual guide and himself stated that he still had grown stronger in the force after gaining more knowledge. Your point is refuted
Originally posted by IOU

this however becomes irrelevant once uve reached your full potential, its something which u cant go beyond
And sidious never e reached his full potential in the movies let alone the OT where he became stronger

Originally posted by IOU

so what? once youve reached your full potential, thats it. you cant actually become technically more powerful. u can improve execution of power, and u can become more powerful in different contexts, but not in the context that it is in when it says that vader is 80% of sidious in power, ie pure force power
GL was referring vader to ROTJ sidious whom already is clearly stronger than ROTS sidious. How about a metaphor? If you have common sense this would point that vader is close to ROTS sidious in sheer strength in the force because clearly ROTJ sidious is already much stronger seeing as how lethel his attacks are with the force

IOU Restricted
Sidious couldnt kill mace windu instantly when he lashed out with his full power while in the OT era during ressurection, He instantly reduced 3 sith acolytes powerful enough to bring maul back from the dead to ashes the moment of impact which clearly indicated sidious DID grow stronger in the force

flaws in your argument:

1. your belief that sidious used his full power against mace windu is unsupported

2. your comparing fricking mace windu to three random darksiders skilled at some form of sith alchemy

3. i can use your own logic against you and claim that his OT incarnation was using his full power against luke in rotj (without backing that up) and then bring up the fact hat he was electrocuting him for longer, yet still failed to kill him, and use that as a comparison without establishing how rotj luke stacks up to mace windu

Which equates to sidious not reaching his full potential until DE.

...no it doesnt, all it means is that sidious' road to full potential wasnt as quick or easy as i should have been, however it doesnt mean that he couldnt have reached his full potential without it, u dont need all the knowledge in the world to be able to fulfill your true potential, this is ridiculous coming from you manslayer, i expected better

He did how ever become more powerful in the OT after studying deeper into the dark side of the force as well as the light learning to make his force powers far more lethel, Learning new techniques and mastering them yet despite doing that he still has not reached his full potential as the visual guide and himself stated that he still had grown stronger in the force after gaining more knowledge.

again, context my friend, context. the UVG to my knowledge only states that he becomes more powerful, not stronger in the force actually, and i can only repeat what ive been saying to you for these last two posts, knowledge can improve execution of power, but it doesnt make you more powerful on a technical level, as in your pure force power, hence why jollyjim's original assertion was flawed

Your point is refuted

no its not

And sidious never e reached his full potential in the movies let alone the OT where he became stronger

u have not established any of this, so dont speak it as if it is a fact

GL was referring vader to ROTJ sidious whom already is clearly stronger than ROTS sidious.

u have not established any of this, so dont speak it as if it is a fact

How about a metaphor? If you have common sense this would point that vader is close to ROTS sidious in sheer strength in the force because clearly ROTJ sidious is already much stronger seeing as how lethel his attacks are with the force

u have not established any of this, so dont speak it as if it is a fact

in fact, i brought this up last time, so ill bring it up again, as its all relevant: darth maul, with less time to train and study than sidious, a smaller knowledge base to work from, and a lesser learning ability had already reached his full potential. so how in the hell wouldnt have sidious?

Manslayer Restricted

Originally posted by IOU
flaws in your argument:

1. your belief that sidious used his full power against mace windu is unsupported

Wheres the proof he didnt use his full power against mace? Seeing that mace is a major threat to sidious, why wouldnt he?
Originally posted by IOU

2. your comparing fricking mace windu to three random darksiders skilled at some form of sith alchemy
No, they were powerful enough to raise some on from the dead. And powerful enough to kill vader i believe. Doesnt matter weather they are on the level on mace or not because it cleary indicates his strength grew much more powerful.

Originally posted by IOU

3. i can use your own logic against you and claim that his OT incarnation was using his full power against luke in rotj (without backing that up) and then bring up the fact hat he was electrocuting him for longer, yet still failed to kill him, and use that as a comparison without establishing how rotj luke stacks up to mace windu
Nebaris, im sorry to tell you that sidious was actually torturing luke and not wanting to kill him until the last minute. Essential guides to characters said so, The movie also clearly indicates this

And the vital quote in the book As the emperor was about to deliver the killing bolts, Vader turned on him

Originally posted by IOU

...no it doesnt, all it means is that sidious' road to full potential wasnt as quick or easy as i should have been, however it doesnt mean that he couldnt have reached his full potential without it, u dont need all the knowledge in the world to be able to fulfill your true potential, this is ridiculous coming from you manslayer, i expected better
And wheres your backup to prove that sidious already reached his full potential by the PT? Because had he done that, He would have annihilated yoda and mace windu with one stroke of lightning because as to what we saw in DE. He puts his former self into shame which again clearly indicates he has not reached his full potential

Originally posted by IOU

again, context my friend, context. the UVG to my knowledge only states that he becomes more powerful, not stronger in the force actually, and i can only repeat what ive been saying to you for these last two posts, knowledge can improve execution of power, but it doesnt make you more powerful on a technical level, as in your pure force power, hence why jollyjim's original assertion was flawed
While sidious said this you have grown stronger in the force but then so have i! From DE. you fail once again.

That indicates he did grow stronger in the force.

And care to elaborate? What is the difference between stronger in the force compared to being more powerful? Because being stronger in the force is being more powerful and during the PT sidious hasnt learned everything

Originally posted by IOU

no its not
It is sadly

Originally posted by IOU

in fact, i brought this up last time, so ill bring it up again, as its all relevant: darth maul, with less time to train and study than sidious, a smaller knowledge base to work from, and a lesser learning ability had already reached his full potential. so how in the hell wouldnt have sidious?
Could be midicholorian count, could be connection to the force. I might as well say, Kit fisto with less time in the force to train and study already reached his full potential while luke in DE still hasnt. Get my point? Your point is moot

Gideon Restricted

Darth Maul is a singular case, and I believe that Ushgarak and Advent had that argument before. After all, the TPM novelization also goes on to say that Obi-Wan was "not yet" Qui-Gon's equal with a lightsaber, so one must assume that if Darth Maul is truly in his prime, it is credited to his uniquely rigorous training regimen.

Manslayer Restricted

Originally posted by IOU
f

u have not established any of this, so dont speak it as if it is a fact

u have not established any of this, so dont speak it as if it is a fact

u have not established any of this, so dont speak it as if it is a fact

Lol it is a fact moron nebaris what gl says = fact what you say = trash

IOU Restricted
Wheres the proof he didnt use his full power against mace? Seeing that mace is a major threat to sidious, why wouldnt he?

well considering hed just had a pretty fast paced and furious duel, and just been severely ****ed by his own lightning, and considering how mace had just had his arm sliced off and was no longer a real threat, there would be no need to go full out on mace. one could even argue that hed want to not instantly kill mace so he could let the pain sink in a bit. bottom line, you have no argument

No, they were powerful enough to raise some on from the dead.

as i already said, they were skilled at some form of sith alchemy, so what? that kind of skill isnt directly proportional with force defence, ergo again, you have no point

And powerful enough to kill vader i believe.

no proof for such a thing, in fact the only indication of their power compared to vaders given was that vader would have been able to kill all of them on the spot

Doesnt matter weather they are on the level on mace or not because it cleary indicates his strength grew much more powerful.

actually it 100% matters, as different people will have a different force defence, ergo your point holds no value

Nebaris, im sorry to tell you that sidious was actually torturing luke and not wanting to kill him until the last minute. Essential guides to characters said so, The movie also clearly indicates this

And the vital quote in the book As the emperor was about to deliver the killing bolts, Vader turned on him

manslayer, i know that, i was simply using your twisted logic against you, which was pretty obvious from my post

And wheres your backup to prove that sidious already reached his full potential by the PT?

already provided later on down the post

Because had he done that, He would have annihilated yoda and mace windu with one stroke of lightning because as to what we saw in DE. He puts his former self into shame which again clearly indicates he has not reached his full potential

the thing is, you havent established any of this

While sidious said this you have grown stronger in the force but then so have i! From DE. you fail once again.

That indicates he did grow stronger in the force.

1. the terms 'strength in the force' is used so much in so many different ways under different contexts that to assume that it has a fixed context when and only when it agrees with your views is fanboyish beyond belief. fact is, it could relate to anything to do with the force

2. please prove that sidious was being 100% truthful, as we know that he was trying to make the situation seem as dire as possible to luke, and such an idea would work for him in that respect

And care to elaborate? What is the difference between stronger in the force compared to being more powerful? Because being stronger in the force is being more powerful and during the PT sidious hasnt learned everything

no, thats not correct, its all dependant on the context its being used in. for example, in these versus forums, the term is most oftenly used to refer to how powerful someone is in respect to a one on one matchup. it could mean many things, and theres no proof that its directly speaking about power in the force on a pure level, and not to the vast greater knowledge he has which would help in the execution of power

It is sadly

no its not

Could be midicholorian count, could be connection to the force. I might as well say, Kit fisto with less time in the force to train and study already reached his full potential while luke in DE still hasnt. Get my point? Your point is moot

except what im saying is backed up by the omniscient narrator, whereas what youre saying is backed up by...nothing.

IOU Restricted
Originally posted by Gideon
Darth Maul is a singular case, and I believe that Ushgarak and Advent had that argument before.

not really, all darksiders are known to increase in power at rapid rates, just look at exar kun or bane

[quote]After all, the TPM novelization also goes on to say that Obi-Wan was "not yet" Qui-Gon's equal with a lightsaber,

not seeing your point

so one must assume that if Darth Maul is truly in his prime, it is credited to his uniquely rigorous training regimen.

i fail to see how, as his rigorous training regime mainly focused on physical aspects of being a warrior, not the force based aspects

IOU Restricted
Originally posted by Manslayer
Lol it is a fact moron nebaris what gl says = fact what you say = trash

🙄

Advent Just Leaving
Originally posted by Manslayer
Lol it is a fact moron nebaris what gl says = fact what you say = trash

Nebaris? Who's Nebaris?

Actually, as surprising as it may be, IOU can raise some very good points when he wants to.

Darth Sexy Restricted

Originally posted by IOU
well considering hed just had a pretty fast paced and furious duel, and just been severely ****ed by his own lightning, and considering how mace had just had his arm sliced off and was no longer a real threat, there would be no need to go full out on mace. one could even argue that hed want to not instantly kill mace so he could let the pain sink in a bit. bottom line, you have no argument

Arguing against canon facts again Noobaris? Sidious underestimated Mace, was defeated in saber combat, and was over powered. I didn't read your other posts because I find what you write very irrelevant and a waste of my time, but if you're trying to bring up the idea that Sidious was faking, that argument has too, been debunked.

2. please prove that sidious was being 100% truthful, as we know that he was trying to make the situation seem as dire as possible to luke, and such an idea would work for him in that respect

Dear lord what are you babbling about?

no, thats not correct, its all dependant on the context its being used in. for example, in these versus forums, the term is most oftenly used to refer to how powerful someone is in respect to a one on one matchup. it could mean many things, and theres no proof that its directly speaking about power in the force on a pure level, and not to the vast greater knowledge he has which would help in the execution of power

I'm going to go on a limb and say you're talking about DE when Sidious claimed he got stronger in the force, as did Luke. What reason is there for Sidious to lie? If Sidious takes pride in ANYTHING, it's his personal power and force abilities, and his superiority over the Jedi, ergo there is no reason to lie. Furthermore, Sidious was taken back to Korriban after he was killed the first time, and he had plenty of time to develop new skills, such as his force storm. The fact that you're saying he didn't increase in power in DE is preposterous, knowing full well Sidious lives for the dark side and for the study of the force, which is all he basically does.

except what im saying is backed up by the omniscient narrator, whereas what youre saying is backed up by...nothing. [/B]

I've yet to see you argue ANYTHING backed up by the omniscient narrator.

IOU Restricted

Originally posted by Advent
Nebaris? Who's Nebaris?

Actually, as surprising as it may be, IOU can raise some very good points when he wants to.

😂
glad to see im finally bein recognised

oh, and dave not so sexy? in ur face, b1tch

Darth Sexy Restricted

....What are you babbling about now? She said you can make some good points, she didn't say you were capable of debating, or winning debates..

Manslayer Restricted

Originally posted by IOU
well considering hed just had a pretty fast paced and furious duel, and just been severely ****ed by his own lightning, and considering how mace had just had his arm sliced off and was no longer a real threat, there would be no need to go full out on mace. one could even argue that hed want to not instantly kill mace so he could let the pain sink in a bit. bottom line, you have no argument
Well lets see the novel did say he lashed out with his full hatred and again even if mace already had his arm cut off. Why wouldn't he still want to actually kill mace windu? Even small threats no matter how not dangerous is still considered an enemy, Sidious would still kill him which is what he was trying to do

Originally posted by IOU

as i already said, they were skilled at some form of sith alchemy, so what? that kind of skill isnt directly proportional with force defence, ergo again, you have no point

It requires power as well. Not just skill alone and who cares if they had a resistence or not? The lightning clearly charred them to bones at the moment of impact and when advent says something shes right for example when i talked about sidious killing those 3 acolytes she has stated that he indeed did grow more powerful in the force

Originally posted by IOU

no proof for such a thing, in fact the only indication of their power compared to vaders given was that vader would have been able to kill all of them on the spot
I back this one down

Originally posted by IOU

actually it 100% matters, as different people will have a different force defence, ergo your point holds no value
And despite mace being "not a threat" after getting his arm hacked off would be concious enough to even put a defence up or attempt to resist which he didnt?. Thats like saying lukes emerald lightning which is insta kill wont work against jedi but on vong since they have no defence to that

Originally posted by IOU

manslayer, i know that, i was simply using your twisted logic against you, which was pretty obvious from my post

Actually it isnt twisted because what i just typed has been backed up by various sources. You attempted to use my logic against me which didnt work because i clearly stated with proof that sidious wasnt trying to kill luke until the last minute. You fail again

Originally posted by IOU

the thing is, you havent established any of this

Thats true but commen sense has

Originally posted by IOU

1. the terms 'strength in the force' is used so much in so many different ways under different contexts that to assume that it has a fixed context when and only when it agrees with your views is fanboyish beyond belief. fact is, it could relate to anything to do with the force
sexy has finished this for me

Originally posted by IOU

2. please prove that sidious was being 100% truthful, as we know that he was trying to make the situation seem as dire as possible to luke, and such an idea would work for him in that respect
No reason to lie and prove sidious wasnt truthful. To teleport some one from the other side of the galaxy to byss proves your strength in the force

Originally posted by IOU

no, thats not correct, its all dependant on the context its being used in. for example, in these versus forums, the term is most oftenly used to refer to how powerful someone is in respect to a one on one matchup. it could mean many things, and theres no proof that its directly speaking about power in the force on a pure level, and not to the vast greater knowledge he has which would help in the execution of power
Lets see. Luke did grow stronger in the force and that indication is the feats he performed and the attacks he unleashed. The same thing which indicates it for sidious. Get my point? Doubtful

Originally posted by IOU

except what im saying is backed up by the omniscient narrator, whereas what youre saying is backed up by...nothing.

Lol it has, and as sexy said you have yet to argue anything backed up my a omniscient narrator

Oh and noobaris i would have finished you in the sylar vs sidious thread the paragraph about shadow cat if it wasnt closed because about that part you are 100% wrong. You know jack about marvel and you went to make a baseless assumption