Sasquatch Vs Rhino

Originally posted by Premutos
It falls within the 10-20 percent range but since they were still building up BB's character it's understandable.

What about when Rhino beat Spider-Man? What about when Fist stalemated Spider-Man? What about when Black Racer one shotted Superman? Etc.

This is pointless. And you've haven't read a lot of comics if you believe this to be true.

Originally posted by Premutos
Getting his ass kicked? He should have been MURDERIZED by Whirlwind's super-speed before he ever had the chance to use any weapons.
Any idea why a planet-buster like Psimon sees the Joker coming to him with a stone in his hand and doesn't obliterate him on the spot?

Because he didn't know what Joker was doing until it was too late.

Originally posted by Premutos
So true, we're talking Rhino here so the power level aspect is completely irrelevant. So yeah, Rhino loses cause somehow an 6in Deadpool beats him up [B]off panel HA HA 🙄 [/B]

Originally posted by DigiMark007

Comic books are the most realiable and true way to gauge a character. Their actual appearances and feats.

Man, in comic books:

- Black Panther puts an arm-lock on the Silver Surfer
- Spiderman punks Firelord
- Batman beats up Solomon Grundy in H2H combat
- Hulk kicks the crap outta Sentry and Dr. Strange
- Luke Cage pwz the Wrecker
- Catwoman shows Cheetah who's boss
- Jason Todd utterly destroys Superwoman

Etc, etc, etc. Comic book consistency when it comes to power levels is ZERO.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

Anyway, Parker has hurt Rhino plenty of times. It's far from impossible. "Impenetrable" is just a word unless it is actually shown to be as such...he's had it ripped off before and has been knocked out in various manners as well.

See? Just another example of what I'm saying. BTW, Rhino's hide has been upgraded ever since.

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist

So, unless I name every fight in comics, you're just going to write it off as 10-20%?

What about when Rhino beat Spider-Man?

Sorry, but I'm gonna do it AGAIN:

Spidey ---> Class 25
Rhino ---> Class 85

The weird thing is that Rhino doesn't beat Spidey ALL THE TIME, don't you think?

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist

What about when Luke Cage smashed Goblin?

WOW, really? Are you telling me that a HERO (and not only a hero but Bendis' favorite character too) defeated a VILLAIN? In a comic book? Just WOW! 😆

Originally posted by Premutos
Man, in comic books:

- Black Panther puts an arm-lock on the Silver Surfer
- Spiderman punks Firelord
- Batman beats up Solomon Grundy in H2H combat
- Hulk kicks the crap outta Sentry and Dr. Strange
- Luke Cage pwz the Wrecker
- Catwoman shows Cheetah who's boss
- Jason Todd utterly destroys Superwoman

Etc, etc, etc. Comic book consistency when it comes to power levels is ZERO

Heh. Well first, most of those are explainable. FL was holding back, and stated as much. Batman is more skilled than Grundy, and there's multiple incarnations of Grundy...most of which have been shown to be vulnerable to various attacks. Strange might be a Skrull, and he didn't "kick the crap" out of Sentry...it was a long fight. Wrecker has been slowly depowered for years. He hasn't been too far beyond Luke for decades. Armbar...admittedly crap. Unfamiliar with the other two.

Anyway, more importantly, you're kinda making my point. Just because you can name a few instances of PIS, we should throw out all feats and just defer to handbooks?! I could name hundreds of feats from any well-established character that all show a relatively consistent power level. It is possible to establish rough gauges of power levels, despite occasional really bad or really good showings. And that's where the fun of debates come in...because people can interpret characters and feats in multiple different ways, and debate over the varying merits of different showings.

So let's say Rhino is a class 85 and Sas is 80 in the handbook. Does Rhino win? Now let's say in the next iteration of the handbook, Sas becomes a 90 (changes like this happen all the time). Does he win now? But the point is that Sasquatch has consistently had better in-comic showings than Rhino, and therefore should be considered the favorite regardless of what a handbook says.

But it comes down to this: If you want absolute consistency, you're in the wrong hobby.

Originally posted by Premutos
Spidey ---> Class 25
Rhino ---> Class 85

The weird thing is that Rhino doesn't beat Spidey ALL THE TIME, don't you think?

Strength isn't the only aspect of power. If I'm fighting a world class weight-lifter but he can never touch me, I'll win.

Originally posted by Premutos
Sorry, but I'm gonna do it AGAIN:

Spidey ---> Class 25
Rhino ---> Class 85

The weird thing is that Rhino doesn't beat Spidey ALL THE TIME, don't you think?

But he won once, and that goes against everything that you said.

Originally posted by Premutos
WOW, really? Are you telling me that a HERO (and not only a hero but Bendis' favorite character too) defeated a VILLAIN? In a comic book? Just WOW! 😆

Originally posted by Premutos
In a comic book?

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist

What about when Black Racer one shotted Superman? Etc.

Wasn't that Dr. Light?

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist

This is pointless. And you've never read comics if you believe this to be truth.

I've been reading comics only for 20 years, how 'bout you?

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist

Whirlwind? Heh?
Norman is still a Spider-Man level being, and in such close quarters...

So? A non-jobbing Whirlwind would murderize Spider-Man too.

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist

Because he didn't know what Joker was doing until it was too late.

Yep, that must be why he was begging the Joker to stop. That, or that he was blind. Say, have you actually read the comic or not?

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Just as a general tip: handbooks are generally very out of date, not even written by comic writers, usually have misleading or even false limits for characters, and are sometimes fan voted (depends on which one you use).

Comic books are the most realiable and true way to gauge a character. Their actual appearances and feats.

Anyway, Parker has hurt Rhino plenty of times. It's far from impossible. "Impenetrable" is just a word unless it is actually shown to be as such...he's had it ripped off before and has been knocked out in various manners as well.

I think handbooks are a good implication of what the characters were intended by their creators

then you have comics to flesh out those characters...however, comics are very vulnerable to inept writers who are not knowledgeable or just don't care about a character's powersets (I would say about 20% of any comic character history suffers from poor writers). so you have writers doing something with a character just for the storyline...ie if the hero needs to survive, he manages to punk someone who is classes above him, or if he should fail, then the hero literally forgets all his basic powersets and fights like an idiot. Thing is writers main goal is to advance plots, not to write a consistent character necessarily. that's why I think panel and handbooks should both be used, with handbooks serving as kind of a guidance in respect to which feats we should accept and which we shouldn't.

Originally posted by Premutos

I've been reading comics only for 20 years, how 'bout you?

Originally posted by Starscream M
in regards to handbooks vs panel

I think handbooks are a good implication of what the characters were intended by their creators

then you have comics to flesh out those characters...however, comics are very vulnerable to inept writers who are not knowledgeable or just don't care about a character's powersets (I would say about 20% of any comic character history suffers from poor writers). so you have writers doing something with a character just for the storyline...ie if the hero needs to survive, he manages to punk someone who is classes above him, or if he should fail, then the hero literally forgets all his basic powersets and fights like an idiot. Thing is writers main goal is to advance plots, not to write a consistent character necessarily. that's why I think panel and handbooks should both be used, with handbooks serving as kind of a guidance in respect to which feats we should accept and which we shouldn't.

hysterical

ur dum

Originally posted by Premutos
Wasn't that Dr. Light?

Black Racer knocked his ass straight out.

Originally posted by Premutos
I've been reading comics only for 20 years, how 'bout you?

Originally posted by Premutos
So? A non-jobbing Whirlwind would murderize Spider-Man too.

Originally posted by Premutos
Yep, that must be why he was begging the Joker to stop. That, or that he was blind. Say, have you actually read the comic or not?

That was a pointless question, but let's say no. Now what happens?

Originally posted by Starscream M
in regards to handbooks vs panel

I think handbooks are a good implication of what the characters were intended by their creators

then you have comics to flesh out those characters...however, comics are very vulnerable to inept writers who are not knowledgeable or just don't care about a character's powersets (I would say about 20% of any comic character history suffers from poor writers). so you have writers doing something with a character just for the storyline...ie if the hero needs to survive, he manages to punk someone who is classes above him, or if he should fail, then the hero literally forgets all his basic powersets and fights like an idiot. Thing is writers main goal is to advance plots, not to write a consistent character necessarily. that's why I think panel and handbooks should both be used, with handbooks serving as kind of a guidance in respect to which feats we should accept and which we shouldn't.

I agree that a writer's main purpose is story, not power sets. But at the same time, we can't ignore the evolution of a character simply for the sake of nostalgia or the creator. Any character doesn't belong to one writer, however important.

And I'll also reiterate my point that the vast majority of characters do have loads of consistent showings. It's entirely possible to determine power levels from showings over an extended period of time. And the difference between a place like KMC and actual comics is usually that we don't include the PIS/CIS that writers occasionally need to advance their story. So yeah, you get some "wrong" outcomes in comics, but it's much more silly to invalidate anything but a handbook simply because you think a fight or two should've been written differently for a character.

...

And as it pertains to this fight, if Rhino is > Sas in the handbook, that's the only place he is. Sasquatch has, by far, better showings over a long period of time, even accounting for PIS. It's not a conspiracy against handbooks, which can be useful for rough estimates of power. It's just simple fact. If we have to invalidate any Sasquatch feats over maybe 90 tons, due to your odd rule, then we'd be eliminating a ton of feats. That kind of consistency supercedes handbooks, and I'd only agree with you if there were only 1-2 rogue feats above that.

Originally posted by Starscream M
in regards to handbooks vs panel

I think handbooks are a good implication of what the characters were intended by their creators

then you have comics to flesh out those characters...however, comics are very vulnerable to inept writers who are not knowledgeable or just don't care about a character's powersets (I would say about 20% of any comic character history suffers from poor writers). so you have writers doing something with a character just for the storyline...ie if the hero needs to survive, he manages to punk someone who is classes above him, or if he should fail, then the hero literally forgets all his basic powersets and fights like an idiot. Thing is writers main goal is to advance plots, not to write a consistent character necessarily. that's why I think panel and handbooks should both be used, with handbooks serving as kind of a guidance in respect to which feats we should accept and which we shouldn't.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
If we have to invalidate any Sasquatch feats over maybe 90 tons, due to your odd rule, then we'd be eliminating a ton of feats. That kind of consistency supercedes handbooks, and I'd only agree with you if there were only 1-2 rogue feats above that.

no, my rule is not to invalidate feats that don't neatly fit into handbook definitions of a character.

but I like consistency of feats from a character.

If a character has the power to destroy a planet (a feat that 1000 nukes couldn't accomplish) I don't ever want to see that same character later struggle to fight subherald level beings.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

Anyway, more importantly, you're kinda making my point. Just because you can name a few instances of PIS, we should throw out all feats and just defer to handbooks?!

No, but if we judge characters going only by (more or less) consistant showings then A-listers >>> B-listers >>> C-listers and so on, simply cause the more comic books appareances a character has the more feats s/he'll have as well.

Feats are important, but they aren't everything, at least IMO. Power levels and potential are relevant too.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

I could name hundreds of feats from any well-established character that all show a relatively consistent power level. It is possible to establish rough gauges of power levels, despite occasional really bad or really good showings. And that's where the fun of debates come in...because people can interpret characters and feats in multiple different ways, and debate over the varying merits of different showings.

So let's say Rhino is a class 85 and Sas is 80 in the handbook. Does Rhino win? Now let's say in the next iteration of the handbook, Sas becomes a 90 (changes like this happen all the time). Does he win now? But the point is that Sasquatch has consistently had better in-comic showings than Rhino, and therefore should be considered the favorite regardless of what a handbook says.

True, I pretty much agree with you on that. Anyway being so similar brawlers both of them and judging by power levels and beforehand I'd give the victory to Rhino as he is now, it's all I'm saying.

Originally posted by Starscream M
no, my rule is not to invalidate feats that don't neatly fit into handbook definitions of a character.

but I like consistency of feats from a character.

If a character has the power to destroy a planet (a feat that 1000 nukes couldn't accomplish) I don't ever want to see that same character later struggle to fight subherald level beings.

The higher the power level, the harder it is to always remain consistent. Sentry, Thor before him on the Avengers, Doctor and Jenny Quantum, Majestic, any good GL, etc. all suffer from this occasionally. It's part of the evil of being the heavy hitter on a team.

That said, most writers avoid this. And any of those I mentioned have enough high level feats that we can safely assume that they are capable of the herald-level stuff they display. So the occasional crap writing is a necessary evil, but doesn't invalidate their power set. Like I said earlier, not the right hobby if you want absolute consistency.

Also, Sasquatch wins.

Originally posted by Premutos
Feats are important, but they aren't everything, at least IMO. Power levels and potential are relevant too.

Fair enough. I agree to an extent. I just think that feats give us most of our info, while handbooks are the rough guidelines from which characters evolve in their comics. Because most handbook articles are refuted by numerous feats.

Originally posted by Starscream M
I think you're completely on point. I'm surprised you've only got 30 posts since you became a member.

Er, I've had a coupla bad experiences with comic-related boards 😮 Meaning that I tend to get banned from them for having strong opinions and/or for pissing off the wrong people. So I don't post regularly.

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
Another lesser known character. And Light only knocked him down temporarily.

Black Racer knocked his ass straight out.

And DL should have as w...See, these are the kinda comments that get me banned all the time 😆

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
He told him to stop after Joker threw a rock. He wasn't expected Joker to kill him.
"What are you--?
Ow! Stop that!"
That sounds like he was asking kids to get off his lawn.

That was a pointless question, but let's say no. Now what happens?

Nothing happens, what were you expecting? Me going to you house and stoning you to death?

Originally posted by Premutos
And DL should have as w...See, these are the kinda comments that get me banned all the time 😆

Nothing happens, what were you expecting? Me going to you house and stoning you to death?

No. It's just that that question had no reason then. I mean, it's irrelevant whether I have read it or not, if we're only referring to context in which I do know of.
And I have read it, it's sexy.