Woman Wars!!!!!

Originally posted by 2damnloud
Uhhh, the entire universe is built off the stuff Storm controls and percieves. This is how was able to control the Trion dimension, the weather on Hala in a different dimension, and also control the Galactic Core.

Since it's scientifically impossible for anyone to observe sub-atomic particles since photons would have to relect off of them so the human eye can see, we have to assume that Storm's powers don't work that way since she can clearly see matter itself broken down to energy(where even the atoms are broken down)so it is inconsequnetial that Sue can bend light around herself since photon reflection is not needed for Storm to be able to see her.

Storm's a smart woman, and she's very perceptive.

She was using her second site to try to find a way out of there.
'
Notice it says: "Until she has the key that'll unlock not only her cell, but Khan's entire Citadel"

She was viewing her surroundings with that second site.

It's like x-ray vision on steroids.

She'd see Sue.😬

You ignored the fact that it doesn't matter if Storm can see Sue.
Now your second paragraph doesn't make any sense. So I will try to interpret what you mean. You're falsely assuming that photons are the size of electrons or larger. If that is the case then we humans wouldn't be able to see lightning or electricity since those are nothing but electrons.
'Scientifically impossible for someone' only implies human's vision and not even technology (Storm and our technology is not human). Some humans can see smaller objects than others and so can certain comic characters than other comic characters. But yet they still see with their eyes. Now I didn't argue that Storm can see certain energy patterns with a second sight. I'm arguing that its impossible from the scans you showed that she can see Sue when Sue not only bends electromagnetic waves perfectly but it is not known whether Storm can perceive hyperspace energy without having photons bounce back to her (assuming that photons even bounce off hyperspace energy).

🙄

Sue bends light, nothing more.

Photons are incosequential to Storm actually SEEING her.

Storm can see Sue while Sue's invisible.

Storm had no trouble controling another dimension with different laws of physics and beating fod beings of said dimension.

Sue is no different.

Originally posted by 2damnloud
🙄

Sue bends light, nothing more.

Photons are incosequential to Storm actually SEEING her.

Storm can see Sue while Sue's invisible.

Storm had no trouble controling another dimension with different laws of physics and beating fod beings of said dimension.

Sue is no different.

Until i see her do it im gonna go with she cant see sue.

Originally posted by 2damnloud
🙄

Sue bends light, nothing more.

Photons are incosequential to Storm actually SEEING her.

Storm can see Sue while Sue's invisible.

Storm had no trouble controling another dimension with different laws of physics and beating fod beings of said dimension.

Sue is no different.

1. She does more than bend electromagnetic waves!

2. False, you or your scans haven't proved that one yet. I even proved that electrons are even visible to the human eye.

3. You haven't proved this either and are still ignoring that it doesn't matter.

4. Controlling something and perceiving it visually are two different things. You are getting irritating now. Please address the arguments I gave you and stop ignoring them. And Sue is different. Her powers have nothing to do with that other dimension you are talking about.

This is one of your arguments in standard form:

If one is able control some energy of another dimension then they can perceive visually any energy in the universe.

Storm has proven to control some energy in another dimension.

Thus Storm can perceive any energy anywhere in the universe.

Do you see the error in reasoning?
The first premise is faulty. Do you see how? If not then I will gladly give you a counterexample.

Storm can alter her vision to perceive electrical energy patterns as well as those factors responsible for existing meteorological phenomena in her surrounding environment.

Sues "invisible" powers work by shunting light away from herself and she can also bend that light so they do not make contact with Storms retina...therefore Sue would in fact be invisible to Storm. Even more so...Sue can render Storm totally blind by making Ororo's retina invisible.

But Storm doesn't really need to see to know where Sue is. Storm can feel atmospheric shifts due to her attunement to the enviroment. If Sue moves around, Storm should have a vague idea of where she is.

On a side note... Sues shields do not block out Telepathy, they block Telekinesis. And both Ms. Marvel Rogue and Current Rogue would go down hard by telepathy.

That said...both Team 1 and Team 2 go down hard.

It comes down to Team 4 and Team 6...mainly because of Wonder Women and Binary. And I'd go with White Hole Binary.

Team 6 ftw.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. She does more than bend electromagnetic waves!

2. False, you or your scans haven't proved that one yet. I even proved that electrons are even visible to the human eye.

3. You haven't proved this either and are still ignoring that it doesn't matter.

4. Controlling something and perceiving it visually are two different things. You are getting irritating now. Please address the arguments I gave you and stop ignoring them. And Sue is different. Her powers have nothing to do with that other dimension you are talking about.

This is one of your arguments in standard form:

If one is able control some energy of another dimension then they can perceive visually any energy in the universe.

Storm has proven to control some energy in another dimension.

Thus Storm can perceive any energy anywhere in the universe.

Do you see the error in reasoning?
The first premise is faulty. Do you see how? If not then I will gladly give you a counterexample.

Prove Sue bends more than light.

Light is not needed for Storm to see her.

You do not SEE electrons in lightning. What you are infact seeing is the resultant superheated air GLOWING a bluish-white color(sometimes red) which is infact plasma.

"Hyperspace" is in THIS universe . It is simply when you reach speeds faster that the speed of light in THIS UNIVERSE that you reach "hyperspace", nothing more.

Light is not a factor in Storm seeing Sue.

And you also need to prove that it is just "some" energy in which Storm controls.

I refuse to indulge someone who is ignorant in soooooooo many things.

On a side note... Sues shields do not block out Telepathy, they block Telekinesis. And both Ms. Marvel Rogue and Current Rogue would go down hard by telepathy.

That said...both Team 1 and Team 2 go down hard.

It comes down to Team 4 and Team 6...mainly because of Wonder Women and Binary. And I'd go with White Hole Binary.

Team 6 ftw.

Are you sure that Sue can't block telepathy? I distinctly remember reading about it somewhere...hmm...

Either way, it doesn't matter. Sue isn't the only one on Team 1 and she certainly isn't the deciding factor that wins it for the team either. Psylocke's there too, and while her telekinesis probably can't produce as strong shields as Sue, she still is a big asset to this fight. Oh, and Betsy IS immune to telepathy. So no, saying that Team 1 goes down due to telepathy is wrong. And yes, Rogue has been consistently shown to be RESISTANT to telepathy. She's not completely immune, but in a fight it could provide precious few seconds that can mean winning or losing.

Oh, and aren't we forgetting about the prep? Sue is still a genius and I can see her inventing, perhaps, telepathic shields. Or maybe not. Then there's Rogue, like I said before, how many people can she permanently absorb in that amount of time? Imagine how powerful she could become by the time the 1 week is over...

Yeah, I see no hope for the rest of the teams. This fight turns into a rape.

Originally posted by JuliaChangRulz
Are you sure that Sue can't block telepathy? I distinctly remember reading about it somewhere...hmm...

Either way, it doesn't matter. Sue isn't the only one on Team 1 and she certainly isn't the deciding factor that wins it for the team either. Psylocke's there too, and while her telekinesis probably can't produce as strong shields as Sue, she still is a big asset to this fight. Oh, and Betsy IS immune to telepathy. So no, saying that Team 1 goes down due to telepathy is wrong. And yes, Rogue has been consistently shown to be RESISTANT to telepathy. She's not completely immune, but in a fight it could provide precious few seconds that can mean winning or losing.

Oh, and aren't we forgetting about the prep? Sue is still a genius and I can see her inventing, perhaps, telepathic shields. Or maybe not. Then there's Rogue, like I said before, how many people can she permanently absorb in that amount of time? Imagine how powerful she could become by the time the 1 week is over...

Yeah, I see no hope for the rest of the teams. This fight turns into a rape.

Nope Emma's gotten through her Shields with her telepathy. Sue blocked Jeans telekinesis in that issue you were refering to. That Jean didn't have Telepathy when she emerged from the cacoon.

Rogue/Ms Marvel and Current Rogue have been taken out fairly easy by High order telepaths. Probing Ms. Marvel Rogue is difficult due to the dual persona...knocking her out isn't and has been done before. Same with current Rogue. Emma managed to sedate her fairly easily...besides Current Rogue is barely in coherent control of her own mind.

Sue is not a genius...she's married to one though.

Psylocke is the only one completely immune to telepathy but she can still be killed via conventional means.

Niether of the teams go far though. I'd say the Rogue death touch/prep thing is an interesting strategy although I'm not sure if that goes against forum rules as it involves other characters who aren't involved in this fight. That's like Sue going to Reed for help during prep. Or She-Hulk shacking up with Tony Stark in order to get an invention from him for this match up.

Team 4 or 6 ftw...and I'd give it to Binary.

Nice points. Though I still have to disagree with you about Sue not being a genius. I mean, she does get overshadowed by Reed and so her smarts are rarely shown. But she is a genius. And honestly, I don't think getting her hands on telepathic blockers would be that hard. If Emma can create one, which to my knowledge she has, than I don't see Sue having a problem making one. Though it isn't necessary to win the fight, just a thought.

As for Rogue...I agree that probing her mind and attacking it are two different things and they do differ in level of difficultly. But the fact is she has been shown to be resistant against attacks as a byproduct of having two minds inside her. Currently, she has millions inside her head. So who knows how that could've have affected her resistance...

Anyway, to prove my point, I specifically remember Betsy (when a telepath, during the outback era) having a hard time trying to attack her mind. Not sure of the exact issue, but there ya go. And though Betsy isn't a high-order telepath, or was actually, she certainly wasn't THAT below Jean and Emma in terms of raw power. She has managed to fend off Shadow King before, after all. Oh, as for currently...I do remember Emma saying she sedated her...but I thought she meant with a drug and not her telepathy...maybe I was wrong?

As for Rogue gaining powers...heck, she doesn't have to absorb characters outside of the fight. She does have the option of absorbing her own teammates, adding Betsy's telekinesis and immunity to telepathy and/or Sue's force fields. From there on she can go and absorb other big players in the battle and collect a vast array of powers, leading ultimately to her winning. That's just a scenario, however. Not sure how it would actually turn out. But with Psylocke and Sue's powers, she definitely would have a good chance of winning.

Originally posted by JuliaChangRulz
Nice points. Though I still have to disagree with you about Sue not being a genius. I mean, she does get overshadowed by Reed and so her smarts are rarely shown. But she is a genius. And honestly, I don't think getting her hands on telepathic blockers would be that hard. If Emma can create one, which to my knowledge she has, than I don't see Sue having a problem making one. Though it isn't necessary to win the fight, just a thought.

As for Rogue...I agree that probing her mind and attacking it are two different things and they do differ in level of difficultly. But the fact is she has been shown to be resistant against attacks as a byproduct of having two minds inside her. Currently, she has millions inside her head. So who knows how that could've have affected her resistance...

Anyway, to prove my point, I specifically remember Betsy (when a telepath, during the outback era) having a hard time trying to attack her mind. Not sure of the exact issue, but there ya go. And though Betsy isn't a high-order telepath, or was actually, she certainly wasn't THAT below Jean and Emma in terms of raw power. She has managed to fend off Shadow King before, after all. Oh, as for currently...I do remember Emma saying she sedated her...but I thought she mean with a drug and not her telepathy...maybe I was wrong.

As for Rogue gaining powers...heck, she doesn't have to absorb characters outside of the fight. She does have the option of absorbing her own teammates, adding Betsy's telekinesis and immunity to telepathy and/or Sue's force fields. From there on she can go and absorb other big players in the battle and collect a vast array of powers, leading ultimately to her winning. That's just a scenario, however. Not sure how it would actually turn out. But with Psylocke and Sue's powers, she definitely would have a good change of winning.

Do you have anything or remember anything that suggests Sue being a genius? 😬 Has she ever built anything? It could be true...If so then I must not be aware of it.

Emma is pretty intelligent herself...especially when it comes to machinery and psionics though. It one of those talents that she rarely ever uses now that she's a good guy.

Exodus in Bloodties and Legion IRRC have downed Ms Marvel Rogue pretty quickly with a mind blast. I think Sinister has as well IRRC. Crimson Dawn Psylocke pretty much got pwned by the Shadow King on the Astral Plane for the majority of both issue #77 and #78. He destroyed her with ease and the Crimson Dawn saved her fragmented form. Afterwards he got arrogant, and telepathically merged with every mind on the planet making a novice mistake and leaving his nexus unguarded. Psylocke destroyed his nexus and he was trapped again on the Astral Plane.
Emma sedated Rogue telepathically at the start of the telepathic session IRRC in X-Men #200.

That Rogue idea could actually work. Although isn't Betsy's Reality Warping Immunity and Telepathic Immunity down to Jamie fiddiling with her Quantum Strings rather then Genetic Mutation. I wonder if Rogue's power would work on that? Either way I don't think anyone on her team has the super speed or reflexes in their powerset to compete with Binary or Wonder Women. Sure Sue + Psylockes Shields would make an amazing defence especially since Sues shield held for a very short while against WW Hulk but the magnitude of the Speed Diana and Carol use combined with Class 100 punches is just too much for an amalgam Rogue with inferior reflexes to keep up.

Still say team 4 or 6.

Who says Binary and Wonder Woman will go after Rogue first? There are plenty of other bricks in their class that will end up taking most of their time. With them occupied that'd leave Rogue plenty of time to collect powers from other combatants. And besides with Sue's powers Rogue gains invisibility and it'd be pretty hard to hit what you can't see.

As for Rogue not gaining Psylocke's attributes because their not really mutations. Hmm...Rogue isn't limited to only absorbing powers...she basically absorbs everything from her victim. From memories, to skills, to physical traits even...so I'm pretty sure that she'd acquire Betsy's little augmentation from her brother.

Moving to Rogue's resistance...yeah, comic's are inconsistent. But you do have a point, Rogue's seems to have been taken down by a psi-blast way to many times for her psi-resistance argument to hold much water. But if she absorbs Betsy it won't matter...

About Sue's genius, I don't have a scanner, so I can't provide any real feats of genius. Maybe the Sue respect thread would provide better information?

Originally posted by JuliaChangRulz
Who says Binary and Wonder Woman will go after Rogue first?There are plenty of other bricks in their class that will end up taking most of their time. With occupied that leave Rogue plenty of time to collect powers from other combatants. And besides with Sue's powers Rogue gains invisibility and it'd be pretty hard to hit what you can't see.

As for Rogue not gaining Psylocke's attributes because their not really mutations. Hmm...Rogue isn't limited to only absorbing powers...she basically absorbs everything from her victim. From memories, to skills, to physical traits even...so I'm pretty sure that she'd acquire Betsy's little augmentation from her brother.

Moving to Rogue's resistance...yeah, comic's are inconsistent. But you do have a point, Rogue's seems to have been taken down by a psi-blast way to many times for her psi-resistance argument to hold much water. But if she absorbs Betsy it won't matter...

About Sue's genius, I don't have a scanner, so I can't provide any real feats of genius. Maybe the Sue respect thread would provide better information?

WW and Binary should be able to take out most of the Field as soon as the fight starts.

Since Rogue has absorbed and thus killed the rest of her teamates during prep...she's pretty much the only person on her team. So lets say she starts the fight with her Shields up, She's invisible and She's immune to detection.

Move on to team two. Emma comes into field with a Cerebra. Storm puts up a pressure field around themselves during prep. Possibly produces fog. Team two get taken out fairly quickly via Speedblitz. Electra and She-Hulk can't act as much interference to WW and Binary.

Team 3. Same as above Spider Woman and Deathstrike are pretty much useless. Jean comes into the fight with her shields up. Crystals quite powerful as well. Although they don't have the reflexes to keep up with flying bricks like Diana or Flying Energy bricks like Binary. Classic Jeans shield will get brought down eventually.

Team 4 Wonder Woman does all the work. Polaris puts up a shield...but should get taken out. Batgirl and Mystique not much use here.

Team 5 Holy crap I didn't see Nova and SuperGirl there. Nova as in the Herald Nova? Eh...I actually think it might be between 4, 5 and 6 now.

Team 6 Diana probably does all the work here.

Thing is all Rogue can do is hide and pray there's an opening so she can sneak up on one of the Big 4 SuperGirl, Nova, Diana or Binary. and steal their powers.

Now that I think open it, there is a possibility. If she hides and sneaks up on the rest of the contestant absorbing their powers Team 1 does have a chance. It's just very slim. Especially if one of the Big 4 decides to level the entire area at the beginning of the fight. eg Binary.

That's not much in the Sue Respect Thread. Any issue numbers though?

I can't provide any issue numbers. You could check with wiki, but with it having such bad rep I doubt you'd want to check there....

Moving on to Rogue. Like I said she can go and absorb the stragglers. The ones that aren't initially taken out but are shaken from the blitz. Like Jean, Polaris, She-Hulk, etc...anyone of them would greatly increase her chances of winning. And it's unlikely that the girls would die so quickly that Rogue wouldn't be able to absorb them. Especially She-Hulk, and with her not dieing immidiatently...Rogue could sweep in like vulture and absorb her power. She could do the same to the other stragglers and slowly increase her power.

And what do you mean by one of the big four leveling the area? As in doing some kind of wide-spread blast? I doubt that would do much harm to Rogue, considering she has Psylocke and Sue's force-fields. The only thing Rogue has to worry about is one of the big four doing a speed-blitz on her. With her stolen powers she would be able take a lot of damage, but having a class 100 or higher hitting her hundreds of times a millisecond is something she wouldn't be able to endure. But that only has a chance of happening if she gets caught, what with her invisibility is unlikely. And the big four would probably be more worried about each other than someone they don't even know is there.

Originally posted by JuliaChangRulz
I can't provide any issue numbers. You could check with wiki, but with it having such bad rep I doubt you'd want to check there....

Moving on to Rogue. Like I said she can go and absorb the stragglers. The ones that aren't initially taken out but are shaken from the blitz. Like Jean, Polaris, She-Hulk, etc...anyone of them would greatly increase her chances of winning. And it's unlikely that the girls would die so quickly that Rogue wouldn't be able to absorb them. Especially She-Hulk, and with her not dieing immidiatently...Rogue could sweep in like vulture and absorb her power. She could do the same to the other stragglers and slowly increase her power.

And what do you mean by one of the big four leveling the area? As in doing some kind of wide-spread blast? I doubt that would do much harm to Rogue, considering she has Psylocke and Sue's force-fields. The only thing Rogue has to worry about is one of the big four doing a speed-blitz on her. With her stolen powers she would be able take a lot of damage, but having a class 100 or higher hitting her hundreds of times a millisecond is something she wouldn't be able to endure. But that only has a chance of happening if she gets caught, what with her invisibility is unlikely. And the big four would probably be more worried about each other than someone they don't even know is there.

Any instances then that you can recall off the top your head? Maybe?

Yeah I meant a wide spread blast. True, didn't think of it that way.

Any instances then that you can recall off the top your head? Maybe?

Yeah I meant a wide spread blast. True, didn't think of it that way.

Nope, sorry. Howevever, if you go to the Marvel website (w w w . m a r v e l . c o m) they have rankings of intelligence there. It's not straight from the comic, but it's something. If I remember correctly they have Sue ranked as either 'gifted' or 'genius'. I'm not exactly sure which...

So...have I convinced you that Rogue would have a moderate to good chance of winning? 🙂

Originally posted by JuliaChangRulz
Nope, sorry. Howevever, if you go to the Marvel website (w w w . m a r v e l . c o m) they have rankings of intelligence there. It's not straight from the comic, but it's something. If I remember correctly they have Sue ranked as either 'gifted' or 'genius'. I'm not exactly sure which...

So...have I convinced you that Rogue would have a moderate to good chance of winning? 🙂

Oh yeah the Marvel website is messed up...the rankings are all wrong see:

http://marvel.com/universe/Wolverine_(James_Howlett)

I think the actual handbook ranks her as Learned.(3 Blocks)

Yep, I guess if the Amalgam Rogue is lucky enough to steal the defeated combatants powersets then steal one of the big 4's powers she could definitely stand a chance.

Learned? At worst I'd put her as gifted...but then again, who am I to say? I'm just a Sue fan. What's Emma's intelligence ranking by the way in the actual handbook?

I still don't think there much luck involved at all, I definetely think Rogue would be given the oppertunity to absorb one weaker combatants and than one of the big four.

But...whatever I think this debate has gone on for long enough, agree to disagree?

Originally posted by JuliaChangRulz
Learned? At worst I'd put her as gifted...but then again, who am I to say? I'm just a Sue fan. What's Emma's intelligence ranking by the way in the actual handbook?

I still don't think there much luck involved at all, I definetely think Rogue would be given the oppertunity to absorb one weaker combatants and than one of the big four.

But...whatever I think this debate has gone on for long enough, agree to disagree?

Emma's ranked as 3 as well. Learned. Kitty Pryde is ranked as 4 Gifted. Emma in actual comics has been shown to have more experience with buiilding tech and in quantum physics ,chemistry etc then Sue does. Reed does most of the science based work in FF.

Well that's the thing. The big four are Supergirl, Nova, WW and Binary. If she steals enough of the fallen combatants powers she'll still need to try and steal one of the big fours powers.

WW powers are derived from her artifacts.(Tiara, Bracelet) So if Rogue touched her...she'd probably just steal Diana's base Amazon features.
Surfer was immune to Rogues touch IRRC...so it's possible that Nova is aswell. Or was did she getone or two thoughts? I don't remember.
Supergirl has a bio aura around her like Superman. So Rogues touch might not work on her.
She could probably steal Binary's powers though.

Sure.

Originally posted by Hitman911
Storm is Hot!!!

Which is why I said Reed overshadows her. I mean, why would she bother to build a device when her husband is smarter and a better inventor? But, still...that doesn't get rid of the fact she is (IMO) a genius.

I don't actually think that Rogue needs to absorb one the big four to win. If she absorbs Jean for example she can screw around with Supergirl and Carols minds. With Polaris, she could possibly affect any possible metal in the girls bodies. If she managed to absorb She-Hulk it'd greatly increase her strength/durability. With Sue's, Psylocke's, Jeans, and Polaris powers she could combine them to possibly create force fields inside her opponents heads like Sue has done before and kill them that way. There's a number of things she could do given the opportunity. And, of course, with Binary her chances would again be increased.

Anyway, I did say I wanted to end this debate so this will be my last post for the day. It's been good debating with you! I'll check tomorrow if anybody else has any thoughts on the matter...I'm surprised no else has posted their opinions on our ramblings...