Winter Soldier (Spoilers)

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Not far better done,he had to alter Buckies history and personality to pul it offf,and while he did that well,it ultimately cheapened the return for me.Also Jason is now one of he Big Three in countdown,and is the one who's busted the monitors,so he is also very necessary.

Plus,Jason killed Captain Nazi,Hitlers ultimate dream,therefore anything Bucky did=fail.

Bucky has ALWAYS been an *******. The golden age just doesn't like to exemplify it....

Originally posted by grey fox
Changed his personality ?

Bucky has ALWAYS been an *******. The golden age just doesn't like to exemplify it....

Is that Wonderman fighting Hyperion bak there?

I'd really like some context on that.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Doesn't mean it's not important,as you and i once discussed,Civil war was a hunk of crap but the aftershock universe is brilliant.

Yes they did.He was originally just a young enthusiastic sidekick but was retconned into being a Nazi killing machine despite no previous indication.he was retconned as well but in a different way to Todd.

I fail to see how keeping someone frozen using advanced cryogenics in the 1940's and equipping them with a robotic replacement is anymore believable then History being altered by a superpowered person hammering away in a nexus of realities,specially whjen both worlds are populated by gods.

Either way,electrocuting everything Hitler worked for>thyen anything Bucky can ever do.

Ok..

You fail to see how someone being kept alive using cryogenics, then given an artificial limb isn't believeable then somebody punching the "nexus of realities" and seperating worlds?

😐

That's idiotic.

Bucky's personality was always like that, the media just painted him too look like a boyscout so he could be America's alternative to the Nazi Youth.

Jason Todd:

Dead
Lifeless body in Batman's arms
Resurected by someone punching universes apart.

Compared to Winter Soldier:

Presumed Dead
Body never found
Stored in cryogenics

How can they even be in the same league as retcons? One of them was extremely well done, the other was done extremely poorly IMO.

Originally posted by CasanoVa
Ok..

You fail to see how someone being kept alive using cryogenics, then given an artificial limb isn't believeable then somebody punching the "nexus of realities" and seperating worlds?

😐

That's idiotic.

Bucky's personality was always like that, the media just painted him too look like a boyscout so he could be America's alternative to the Nazi Youth.

Jason Todd:

Dead
Lifeless body in Batman's arms
Resurected by someone punching universes apart.

Compared to Winter Soldier:

Presumed Dead
Body never found
Stored in cryogenics

How can they even be in the same league as retcons? One of them was extremely well done, the other was done extremely poorly IMO.

You fail to see that I have a problem with them doing that in the 1940's.

Both are idiotic,Jasons was just done more bluntly,Bucky has espionage and intrigue.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
You fail to see that I have a problem with them doing that in the 1940's.

Both are idiotic,Jasons was just done more bluntly,Bucky has espionage and intrigue.

Yeah, because in the 40's there wasn't androids running around and people weren't turning from 86lb weaklings into super soldiers or anything? Compared to that, cryogenics is old hat.

How is Bucky's resurrection idiotic? It's almost a parallel to Captain America's, but if he was found by the Soviets. I find it entirely believable.

But compared to somebody coming back to life because an alien from another universe came over to the DC main universe and punched the nexus of realities so hard that it forced changes in the time-stream.

How in the hell is that believable? 😬, really.. lol

Alsdo you state that 'Bucky was a eager youn ect'.

He has ALWAYS killed Nazis , before Winter Soldier, he was KILLING Nazis.

Originally posted by CasanoVa
Yeah, because in the 40's there wasn't androids running around and people weren't turning from 86lb weaklings into super soldiers or anything? Compared to that, cryogenics is old hat.

How is Bucky's resurrection idiotic? It's almost a parallel to Captain America's, but if he was found by the Soviets. I find it entirely believable.

But compared to somebody coming back to life because an alien from another universe came over to the DC main universe and punched the nexus of realities so hard that it forced changes in the time-stream.

How in the hell is that believable? 😬, really.. lol

So your saying that in the comic book world,one scenario is more believable then another?

Jasons resurrection is perfectly believable in comic world,as is Buckies,so poorely handled and blunt can describe it but not stupid.

Look at yopur post again.Super-solidier serums,cryogenics,advanced prosthetics.Oh yeah,so less stupid.

Originally posted by grey fox
Alsdo you state that 'Bucky was a eager youn ect'.

He has ALWAYS killed Nazis , before Winter Soldier, he was KILLING Nazis.

You just showed me a bunch of covers of Bucky hurting Nazi who have artwork that make them look like freaking demons.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
You just showed me a bunch of covers of Bucky hurting Nazi who have artwork that make them look like freaking demons.

You mean they arn't?

Originally posted by Martian_mind
So your saying that in the comic book world,one scenario is more believable then another?

Jasons resurrection is perfectly believable in comic world,as is Buckies,so poorely handled and blunt can describe it but not stupid.

Look at yopur post again.Super-solidier serums,cryogenics,advanced prosthetics.Oh yeah,so less stupid.

Oh come on MM now your being stubborn.

Guy goes missing
Guy get's amnesia
Taken Advatange of
Get's prosthetic

Guy punches wall which distorts all of reality.

Which is more realistic to you ?

Originally posted by Martian_mind
You just showed me a bunch of covers of Bucky hurting Nazi who have artwork that make them look like freaking demons.

And ?

In all the 40's Bucky and Cap were killing Nazis , Marvel didn't think that was suitable for kids in the 60's and then shuffled it into a 'it didn't happen' portal. Now they've brought it back (albeit in a less insane manner).

Originally posted by grey fox
Oh come on MM now your being stubborn.

Guy goes missing
Guy get's amnesia
Taken Advatange of
Get's prosthetic

Guy punches wall which distorts all of reality.

Which is more realistic to you ?

I'M DRUNK DAMMIT!!!

Plus,that makes it far more simple sounding,but this is whats being said.

In the 1940's a plane explodes,a guy loses his arm,goes missing,and is preserved naturally 4 awhile.

Soviets find him and somehow brainwash him,equip him with a high-tech robotic limb and make him kill their enemies,using highly advanced cryogenics technquies for decades.

Saying one is stupider then the other is truly stupid,as both require suspension of belief to a great degree.

Originally posted by grey fox
And ?

In all the 40's Bucky and Cap were killing Nazis , Marvel didn't think that was suitable for kids in the 60's and then shuffled it into a 'it didn't happen' portal. Now they've brought it back (albeit in a less insane manner).

where they killing machines?did they sneak upo with daggers and slit throats?

and as io remember it's still canon that Cap didn't kill,only Bucky.So if what your sayings true they had to retcon Cap,witch is just as bad.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
I'M DRUNK DAMMIT!!!

Plus,that makes it far more simple sounding,but this is whats being said.

In the 1940's a plane explodes,a guy loses his arm,goes missing,and is preserved naturally 4 awhile.

Soviets find him and somehow brainwash him,equip him with a high-tech robotic limb and make him kill their enemies,using highly advanced cryogenics technquies for decades.

Saying one is stupider then the other is truly stupid,as both require suspension of belief to a great degree.

Drop the booze and step away from teh PC, lest you do yourself any harm.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
So your saying that in the comic book world,one scenario is more believable then another?

Jasons resurrection is perfectly believable in comic world,as is Buckies,so poorely handled and blunt can describe it but not stupid.

Look at yopur post again.Super-solidier serums,cryogenics,advanced prosthetics.Oh yeah,so less stupid.

How idiotic.

Just because alot of far fetched things happen in comics, doesn't mean that you have to treat everything with the same level of believability.

Jason's resurrection is STUPID because it was poorly handled and blunt, why is it so stupid? Because it came from SBP's "Retcon Punch" which IMO was one of the stupidest moments in comics for a very long time.

And yeah, I looked at it.. So what? 😐

Marvel Earth is not our Earth, they are far more advanced technology wise than we are, how is it hard to believe that if they are capable of creating super soldiers and androids, then how is cryogenics beyond them?

Originally posted by CasanoVa
How idiotic.

Just because alot of far fetched things happen in comics, doesn't mean that you have to treat everything with the same level of believability.

Jason's resurrection is [B]STUPID because it was poorly handled and blunt, why is it so stupid? Because it came from SBP's "Retcon Punch" which IMO was one of the stupidest moments in comics for a very long time.

And yeah, I looked at it.. So what? 😐

Marvel Earth is not our Earth, they are far more advanced technology wise than we are, how is it hard to believe that if they are capable of creating super soldiers and androids, then how is cryogenics beyond them? [/B]

Why is it so hard to believe that in Dc's universe,where they have a bunch of Guys with Rings that can do anything patrolling the spaceways and a god-like being with powers almost like photosynthesis that reality can be altered in such a way.

I'd understand if you were saying in real world ways that it was more believable,but as your saying that we can suspend belief for one character or not another it just doesn't sit right.

Thats just stupid.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Why is it so hard to believe that in Dc's universe,where they have a bunch of Guys with Rings that can do anything patrolling the spaceways and a god-like being with powers almost like photosynthesis that reality can be altered in such a way.

I'd understand if you were saying in real world ways that it was more believable,but as your saying that we can suspend belief for one character or not another it just doesn't sit right.

Thats just stupid.

Alot of stories are good because they aren't believable, because people use comics to escape from reality. I never said that because they aren't realistic, they automatically are stupid, just in this instance I think it was too far of a stretch.

Yes, suspension of belief is needed for both characters, but there's only so much you can sit through before thinking "Ok, I let that one go, but this is just getting silly now", Jason Todd for me was one of those moments.

BTW: Captain America did kill during the war, after he was injected with the serum and it took affect, a Nazi spy killed Dr.Erskine and Steve killed him. He has killed, he just dislikes it with a passion, thats why Bucky did all the wet works during the war.

Originally posted by CasanoVa
Alot of stories are good because they aren't believable, because people use comics to escape from reality. I never said that because they aren't realistic, they automatically are stupid, just in this instance I think it was too far of a stretch.

Yes, suspension of belief is needed for both characters, but there's only so much you can sit through before thinking "Ok, I let that one go, but this is just getting silly now", Jason Todd for me was one of those moments.

BTW: Captain America did kill during the war, after he was injected with the serum and it took affect, a Nazi spy killed Dr.Erskine and Steve killed him. He has killed, he just dislikes it with a passion, thats why Bucky did all the wet works during the war.

Why didn't you say it like that before,without having to say my points where stupid?

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Why didn't you say it like that before,without having to say my points where stupid?

Because a lot of them were. innocent

CAPTAIN AMERICA #30
Written by ED BRUBAKER
Penciled by STEVE EPTING & MIKE PERKINS
Cover by STEVE EPTING
The best-selling Captain America series continues its most shocking story ever! It's the Winter Soldier versus everyone in this senses-shattering conclusion to the first arc of the EPIC "*Death of Captain America*" storyline. Winter Soldier versus Crossbones - the man who sniped Cap! Winter Soldier versus S.H.I.E.L.D. and Tony Stark's hand-picked Mighty Avengers operative! Winter Soldier versus the Red Skull! And finally - the Winter Soldier versus himself! You'll have to be there to see it! By Brubaker, Epting, and Perkins.
32 PGS./Rated T+ …$2.99

PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL #11
Written by MATT FRACTION
Pencils by LEANDRO FERNANDEZ
Cover by ARIEL OLIVETTI
A handful of survivors and victims of our first year of stories converge for three wildly different confrontations, all setting in motion the explosive second year of PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL: In Washington DC, someone wants to have words with Frank about his recent patriotic costume change-- the Winter Soldier himself, Bucky Barnes! On a houseboat in the Florida Everglades, G.W. Bridge goes head-to-head with Tony Stark to negotiate the terms of his return to S.H.I.E.L.D.... or is it his surrender? And in a psychiatric hospital, Ian the Fake Cop Hero of Times Square has an epically strange chat with his epically unconventional therapist about... HEROES AND VILLAINS.
32 PGS./Parental Advisory …$2.99

Looks like Winter Soldier'll be squaring off against quite a few people these coming months.

👆