Re: Re: Re: why did god create ANYTHING outside his own existance{universe, heaven, hell}at ALL?
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
You don't know that, and you can't give us unrefutable evidence that he didn't, so don't say it like it's a fact.
You don't know that god created the universe. You cannot show any facts. My claim is just as good as any other, and it fixes the problem that this thread points out.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
i dont believe he did. but its a question for those who believe he did. if we take god as an axiom with the basic properties which defines him. then the question holds ground for all who claim his existance to be true.
I was adding spice to your point.
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
We are both at a standstill, neither on can provide unrefutable evidence whether God did or did not create the universe or if he even exists. Therefore, neither one of us should be able to state whether he did or did not as a fact.
But I have one piece of evidence on my side; the paradox presented by this thread.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
this is i think a very serious question. why would ANY1 create anything. it cannot be without some sort of inclination. or reason. nothing is done without either DESIRE or NECESSITY. since the omnipotent god has NEITHER desire nor necessity{as he is complete in himself and neither WANTS, nor NEEDS anything outside his ownself. otherwise hed stop being omnipotent} why would he create ANYTHING other than himself. why would indeed he me MOTIVATED to do anything at ALL???? and for those who believe that the world is part of god, we can atleast agree that our CONCIOUSNESS as it is is not completely the SAME as god so the argument still remains.what motivated him to do so?
Originally posted by maham
Simple: for us to worship Him.Since He is the Most Powerful and has the Power to create,He did it. N in case ur wonderin y any1 would want to create anythin,just stop usin all the modern facilities n try to live.u'll get the answer.
ahhhhhh. the problem with that is the one mentioned in the first post. did he NEED{necessity} to be worshipped or did he WANT{desire} to be worshipped. either way a perfect being can neither gain, nor need or want ANYTHING, as it alone is perfect, complete and unfazed, as desire and necessity do not hold for an omnipotent being. and how does giving up modern facilities relate to my question of god's motivations for creatign thsi world?
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
And you can't prove he doesn't exist.
that is a wrong view point to be taking. the burden od evidence falls on the shoulder of the one MAKING THE CLAIM{i.e of god's existance} to prove the statement, not on the opposition to disprove it. and yes, there might not be a definitve case for lack of A god /spiritualty. but there most definately ARE definitive arguments against the existance of an OMNIPOTENT/OMNISCIENT/OMNIBENEVOLENT GOD{omnipotence is self contradictory even by the standards of the strictest formal logic. omniscience can exist, alone or with omnibenevolance, but omnisceice can NEVER exist side by side with omnipotence. omnibenevolance cant exist with omnipotence as far as their is even potential for the concept of anything even slightly negetive in this world}. well ill let my dear friend bertie russel do the talking for me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
Originally posted by leonheartmm
ahhhhhh. the problem with that is the one mentioned in the first post. did he NEED{necessity} to be worshipped or did he WANT{desire} to be worshipped. either way a perfect being can neither gain, nor need or want ANYTHING, as it alone is perfect, complete and unfazed, as desire and necessity do not hold for an omnipotent being. and how does giving up modern facilities relate to my question of god's motivations for creatign thsi world?
N anyway,this topic is a bit stupid cuz if Allah didn't want to create us we wouldn't be here,wud we?
Originally posted by maham
I didn't say we complete Him.We worship Him for He is the only 1 to be worshipped.N u asked y would ANY1 want to create anythin,the facilities thing was for that as man created all these things cuz he wanted to.N anyway,this topic is a bit stupid cuz if Allah didn't want to create us we wouldn't be here,wud we?
no, your a bit silly for believing allah created anything. or the fact that allah exist. neither is logically possible. and when i said ANY1, i went on to elaborate the motivations for doing anyhting{including creation} that any entity can have. and since allah/god cant not have these motivations based on him being omnipotent and complete. it is impossible for the islamic/biblical god to have created us and the universe unless those scriptures are lying about his attributes.
again. no1 creates anything other than because of desire/necessity, and a perfect self sufficient being can not have either of those traits.
Re: Re: Re: why did god create ANYTHING outside his own existance{universe, heaven, hell}at ALL?
Originally posted by leonheartmm
i dont believe he did. but its a question for those who believe he did. if we take god as an axiom with the basic properties which defines him. then the question holds ground for all who claim his existance to be true.
Great thread, leonheartmm. Your original post poses a profound theological question that lies at the heart of the Christian/Jewish concept of God. How can a perfect, self-completing being desire to create anything? This delimmna is perhaps even more pronounced in the Christian faith because of belief in the triune intra-personal communication between the distinct persons within the Godhead (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). If God is already a communion of divine persons, there is not even a need to create a self-image ( man) since that image is already eternally presesnt. The traditional answer to this question refers to God's creative act as the prototype of the Christian ideal of agapic (free, self-giving love). However, this answer poses other questions, most notably, love for what? The non-existent?
As a believing Catholic, I have to say that there is no empirically convincing answer to this question one way or the other. It is one of those things we refer to as a mystery - a reality we believe in yet remain incapable of explaining.
For what it's worth, I do think it's possible that God's "perfections" (his onimpotence, his ominiscience) are scholastic hand-me-downs that reflect a desire to fit a set of divine attributes into a self-consistent philosophical system more than a concrete experience of the divine person revealed in the Hebrew/Christian scriptures. In other words, the God revealed to the Jews is probably not the same colorless prime-moving being elaborated upon by Aquinas et al. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's not.
What do I believe in relation to God's nature and the creation of the universe? I think that there is a ghost in the machine - A mysterious, being without discernible origin, who, while transcendent to the material universe, nonetheless acts within that medium to effect "creation" - a set of anthropic events that leads to life, and eventually us. Why? I might be straying into heresy here, but I think it must have something to do with self-knowledge. God creates to know himself through his creation. (This is an argument that the ex-Jesuit Jack Miles makes in his book "God"😉. God loves man because man (as God's image) acts out God's own unexpressed/unrealized inner life.
LOL. So, leonheartmm, to answer your question. I guess what I'm saying is that I agree with you. God's philosophical perfection is incompatible with God's creative act. And since I still believe in God's existence, I'll dispense with the scholastic humbug and retain the living, and much more interesting, God revealed to the Jews.