Originally posted by srankmissingninSo, saving someone, makes you a better fighter?
The flashback in Uncanny 268 where Wolverine saves Cap's ass and the fact that Wolverine said he was better in Origins?
Originally posted by carver9Wow...
and the fact that it has been stated by marvel that wolverine is the best there is at what he does.
I go with Cap as the better fighter. Sanity over insanity in my book.
Cap is the perfect Man with a supersolider formula vs. a crazy animal guy. You know what really surprized me about Cap was when in his own series or maybe it was in the avengers; when Wrecker almost killed him and knocked him unconscious by pounding on his shield. It should have had no effect on Cap seeing his shields composition.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The flashback in Uncanny 268 where Wolverine saves Cap's ass
Thats because they retconed Wolverines ass. Since Wolverine started learning MA before Cap at some point he had to be better than Cap. Cap has now exceeded him. Cap has better MA feats and has more experience (I know what you're gonna say).
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
and the fact that Wolverine said he was better in Origins?
When did he say that? If he did it dont mean **** at all. Hell this could even imply Wolverine thinks Cap is better.
http://img160.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page116fq.jpg
I tell you what if your a better MA than somebody you dont say " Even such and such himself."
I just wont have anybody saying Wolverine is a better MA. Thats fanboyism.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Thats because they retconed Wolverines ass. Since Wolverine started learning MA before Cap at some point he had to be better than Cap. Cap has now exceeded him. Cap has better MA feats and has more experience (I know what you're gonna say).
That wasn't a retcon since it didn't change anything that was established, it just built in the void that was Wolverine's back story.
Captain America doesn't even have 20 years of training under his belt. Do you think in the 10 some odd years since he was found frozen in a block of ice he managed to surpass Wolverine, who even before he had an extra 60 years of training and combat experience under his belt, was better then Captain America?
Wolverine has close to 100 years of training and combat experience, he was trained by Ogun for years (and Ogun has the ability to impart a life time of training in mere hours thanks to his mystical abilities) and he has lived no less then four previous lives two of which were experienced warriors. Who knows how much experience Wolverine has, but the one thing you can be sure of is that it is exponentially more then Captain America's.
Originally posted by Alfheim
When did he say that? If he did it dont mean **** at all. Hell this could even imply Wolverine thinks Cap is better.
Wolverine to Captain America - "Hurts don't it? Knowin' that I'm so much better'n you"
...
I'm sorry.... but how does Mr. X thinking that Captain America is a joke help your argument? 馃槙
Mr. X easily demolished Taskmaster (someone who has walked all over Captain America in the past) and destroyed Cat. He flat out stated that Captain America, Daredevil and Iron Fist were nothing to him and yet he felt Wolverine was a worthy foe.
Originally posted by Alfheim
I tell you what if your a better MA than somebody you dont say " Even such and such himself."
You can be better then someone and still respect and admire their skills and fighting abilities. Captain America has achieved a level of skill that is rivaled few and surpassed by even less, and he has done this with less then 30 years of training. It doesn't matter who you are, you tip your hat to a guy who mastered every fighting style known to man in a couple decades.
Heres what we know:
- Wolverine's experience and training dwarf that of Captain America
- Wolverine was Captain America's superior in WW2, before the bulk of Wolverine's training even began
- Zartan challenged Cap because he needed to kill someone superior to Shang Chi... after he lost to Cap he challenged Wolverine because he needed to kill someone superior to both Cap and Chi to repair his reputation
- Mr. X, who thinks Captain America is a joke in pajamas, considers Wolverine a worthy adversary
- Captain America has never beaten any experienced Martial Artists as easily and thoroughly as Wolverine dealt with Shang Chi
- Even Stick thinks highly of Wolverine, and Wolverine even managed to stalemate him in a brief scuffle
- Wolverine said he was better
Now, with that out of the way let me say that I don't necessarily believe that Wolverine is Caps superior. Someone (Bran?) asked for proof that that Wolverine was Cap's equal so I gave some... and the fact of the matter is that there is more to suggest that Wolverine is Cap superior then vice versa. In my opinion the two are about equal, but it wasn't giving my opinion on the subject, just facts.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
That wasn't a retcon since it didn't change anything that was established, it just built in the void that was Wolverine's back story.Captain America doesn't even have 20 years of training under his belt. Do you think in the 10 some odd years since he was found frozen in a block of ice he managed to surpass Wolverine, who even before he had an extra 60 years of training and combat experience under his belt, was better then Captain America?
Wolverine has close to 100 years of training and combat experience, he was trained by Ogun for years (and Ogun has the ability to impart a life time of training in mere hours thanks to his mystical abilities) and he has lived no less then four previous lives two of which were experienced warriors. Who knows how much experience Wolverine has, but the one thing you can be sure of is that it is exponentially more then Captain America's.
[b]Wolverine to Captain America
- "Hurts don't it? Knowin' that I'm so much better'n you"...
I'm sorry.... but how does Mr. X thinking that Captain America is a joke help your argument? 馃槙
Mr. X easily demolished Taskmaster (someone who has walked all over Captain America in the past) and destroyed Cat. He flat out stated that Captain America, Daredevil and Iron Fist were nothing to him and yet he felt Wolverine was a worthy foe.
You can be better then someone and still respect and admire their skills and fighting abilities. Captain America has achieved a level of skill that is rivaled few and surpassed by even less, and he has done this with less then 30 years of training. It doesn't matter who you are, you tip your hat to a guy who mastered every fighting style known to man in a couple decades.
Heres what we know:
- Wolverine's experience and training dwarf that of Captain America
- Wolverine was Captain America's superior in WW2, before the bulk of Wolverine's training even began
- Zartan challenged Cap because he needed to kill someone superior to Shang Chi... after he lost to Cap he challenged Wolverine because he needed to kill someone superior to both Cap and Chi to repair his reputation
- Mr. X, who thinks Captain America is a joke in pajamas, considers Wolverine a worthy adversary
- Captain America has never beaten any experienced Martial Artists as easily and thoroughly as Wolverine dealt with Shang Chi
- Even Stick thinks highly of Wolverine, and Wolverine even managed to stalemate him in a brief scuffle
- Wolverine said he was betterNow, with that out of the way let me say that I don't necessarily believe that Wolverine is Caps superior. Someone (Bran?) asked for proof that that Wolverine was Cap's equal so I gave some... and the fact of the matter is that there is more to suggest that Wolverine is Cap superior then vice versa. In my opinion the two are about equal, but it wasn't giving my opinion on the subject, just facts. [/B]
Originally posted by Tyrant
IMO, Cap is a better fighter, however, Wolverine beats him bad.
Originally posted by Wonder Man
Wolverine's real feather in his cap seems to me to be his affiliation with CIA type orginazations.
Cap and Skull are just better at that than him. Everyone wants CIA training.
Skull for the WIN over Wolvie.
...
Wolverine is a much better government spook then either Cap or Skull. 馃槙
Originally posted by Wonder Man1. Because Cap's a SHIELD operative... Fury also happens to be great friends with Logan.
Ya. Why then does Fury defer to Cap in everything and why in like the Surfer movie when real help is needed they turn to people like Doom.
Not to mention, the Silver Surfer arriving is an entirely different scenario from what you're talking about, so that's a useless point.
none180
Originally posted by Wonder Man
Ya. Why then does Fury defer to Cap in everything and why in like the Surfer movie when real help is needed they turn to people like Doom.
Because Captain America is a SHIELD opperative and because in the "Surfer" movie, Wolverine not only didn't exist but it wasn't a job of a secret agent or a spook... it was a job for a scientist. And FYI Fury brings in Logan in for missions all the time, but unlike the stuff Cap gets booked for, they are missions that "never happed." *wink* *wink*
Prior to Logan joining the X-Men,"in espionage circles, the mutant operative code-named Wolverine [was] a whispered legend." When Wolverine was a spook he was so efficient and so effective that he was considered an urban legend created to scare rookie agents. Was Captain America? No. Red Skull? No. Not even Nick Fury can boast such claim.
Originally posted by srankmissingninI don't know about you, but I pretty much shit my pants...
Prior to Logan joining the X-Men,"in espionage circles, the mutant operative code-named Wolverine is a whispered legend." When Wolverine was a spook he was so efficient and so effective that he was considered an urban legend created to scare rookie agents. Was Captain America? No. Red Skull? No. Not even Nick Fury can boast such claim.
Just, no.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
That wasn't a retcon since it didn't change anything that was established, it just built in the void that was Wolverine's back story.
When Cap and Wolverine argued in Secret Wars there was no mention of there mission,s together. Part of the arguments they had where wether Cap should lead the X men as well, im pretty sure WW2 would have come up if it wasnt a rectcon, but it didnt.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Captain America doesn't even have 20 years of training under his belt. Do you think in the 10 some odd years since he was found frozen in a block of ice he managed to surpass Wolverine, who even before he had an extra 60 years of training and combat experience under his belt, was better then Captain America?Wolverine has close to 100 years of training and combat experience, he was trained by Ogun for years (and Ogun has the ability to impart a life time of training in mere hours thanks to his mystical abilities) and he has lived no less then four previous lives two of which were experienced warriors. Who knows how much experience Wolverine has, but the one thing you can be sure of is that it is exponentially more then Captain America's.
Well you're wrong. This is why Cap has more experience than Wolverine. Read what it says in the first panel.
http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capintegritytr4.jpg
Everytime Cap was sent back in time it lasted years. In one incident Cap planned for 50 years. Baring in mind that Cap had to learn how to defeat an ominpotent villain he would have spent years training and planning.
Cap was sent back hundreds of times? 500 times? One incident lasted 50 years and we know that Cap is a through planner. Lets average each incident 20 years? 500 X 20 = 10 000 years of experience. Beat that! Furthermore Cap is a training fanatic. Wolverine trains but is not fanatical.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
[b]Wolverine to Captain America - "Hurts don't it? Knowin' that I'm so much better'n you"[/B]
He didnt say that because it was true he said it because he was trying to piss him off. You can clearly see that Wolverine was trying to get Cap riled up and was using his emotions against him.
Furthermore Wolverine is not outhinking a guy who is the Reed Richards of combat strategy who uses skill and intelligence 100 perecent of time and is not in a weakened state while Wolverine is tired and hungry and uses intelligence far less than Cap does. Bios can be inaccurate but Marvel universe is consistent with Wolverine and Caps showings by making Cap more intelligent than Wolverine in his bios.
If you think Origins was a good example of how a fight between Cap and Wolverine should go you're a fanboy.
...
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I'm sorry.... but how does Mr. X thinking that Captain America is a joke help your argument? 馃槙
Mr. X easily demolished Taskmaster (someone who has walked all over Captain America in the past) and destroyed Cat. He flat out stated that Captain America, Daredevil and Iron Fist were nothing to him and yet he felt Wolverine was a worthy foe.
What on earth are you talking about? Wolverine was not a worthy foe. Mister X completely owned Wolverine and would have killed Wolverine if Taskmaster had not intervened. The only way Wolverine beat Mr X was going beserk and he wasnt using MA then he was just acting on instinct as Wolverine stated when he goes Beserk he doesnt even know what hes doing next.
Furthermore the reason why Mister X was so good was because he was a telepath not because of his MA skill thats why he lost when Wolverine went beserk.
When did Taskmaster walk over Cap?
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
You can be better then someone and still respect and admire their skills and fighting abilities. Captain America has achieved a level of skill that is rivaled few and surpassed by even less, and he has done this with less then 30 years of training. It doesn't matter who you are, you tip your hat to a guy who mastered every fighting style known to man in a couple decades.
Right ok so when somebody says "Even such and such himself." What does this mean? Does it mean you think that person is superior to you or inferior?
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Heres what we know:- Wolverine's experience and training dwarf that of Captain America
No they dont. Korvac saga.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
- Wolverine was Captain America's superior in WW2, before the bulk of Wolverine's training even began
Wolverine was training in MA before WW2, so that would explain it.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
- Zartan challenged Cap because he needed to kill someone superior to Shang Chi... after he lost to Cap he challenged Wolverine because he needed to kill someone superior to both Cap and Chi to repair his reputation
I bet Zartan didnt say that did he. Making assumptions?
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
- Mr. X, who thinks Captain America is a joke in pajamas, considers Wolverine a worthy adversary
Wolverine beat him because he went beserk AND because Taskmaster saved his life. When the Hulks goes beserk it doesnt make him a MA.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
- Captain America has never beaten any experienced Martial Artists as easily and thoroughly as Wolverine dealt with Shang Chi
According to Jinzin Cap beat Shang and several other people at the sametime so yeah he has.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
- Even Stick thinks highly of Wolverine, and Wolverine even managed to stalemate him in a brief scuffle
PIS. Wolverine doesnt have showings to match people like Cap and DD. Cap in a weaker dying body of the Red Skull has been able to stun Goliath with one finger, proceed to dodge yellowjackets blast and then knock him on his back with a punch. When Wolverine does stuff like that on a regular basis then Wolverine gets to be in the same league as Cap and DD.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
- Wolverine said he was better
Already explained.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Prior to Logan joining the X-Men,"in espionage circles, the mutant operative code-named Wolverine [was] a whispered legend." When Wolverine was a spook he was so efficient and so effective that he was considered an urban legend created to scare rookie agents. Was Captain America? No. Red Skull? No. Not even Nick Fury can boast such claim.
Blowing things out of proportion again? He was an Urban legend so what? All that proves is that Wolverines status is different. Cap is a symbol Wolverine is an Urban legend.
Apparetly in House of M people were crying that Cap wasnt still around no more. Hell when superheroes have problems people always go to Cap for help not Wolverine. 馃檮
Re: Just, no.
Originally posted by Alfheim
When Cap and Wolverine argued in Secret Wars there was no mention of there mission,s together. Part of the arguments they had where wether Cap should lead the X men as well, im pretty sure WW2 would have come up if it wasnt a rectcon, but it didnt.Well you're wrong. This is why Cap has more experience than Wolverine. Read what it says in the first panel.
http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capintegritytr4.jpg
Everytime Cap was sent back in time it lasted years. In one incident Cap planned for 50 years. Baring in mind that Cap had to learn how to defeat an ominpotent villain he would have spent years training and planning.
Cap was sent back hundreds of times? 500 times? One incident lasted 50 years and we know that Cap is a through planner. Lets average each incident 20 years? 500 X 20 = 10 000 years of experience. Beat that! Furthermore Cap is a training fanatic. Wolverine trains but is not fanatical.
He didnt say that because it was true he said it because he was trying to piss him off. You can clearly see that Wolverine was trying to get Cap riled up and was using his emotions against him.
Furthermore Wolverine is not outhinking a guy who is the Reed Richards of combat strategy who uses skill and intelligence 100 perecent of time and is not in a weakened state while Wolverine is tired and hungry and uses intelligence far less than Cap does. Bios can be inaccurate but Marvel universe is consistent with Wolverine and Caps showings by making Cap more intelligent than Wolverine in his bios.
If you think Origins was a good example of how a fight between Cap and Wolverine should go you're a fanboy.
...
What on earth are you talking about? Wolverine was not a worthy foe. Mister X completely owned Wolverine and would have killed Wolverine if Taskmaster had not intervened. The only way Wolverine beat Mr X was going beserk and he wasnt using MA then he was just acting on instinct as Wolverine stated when he goes Beserk he doesnt even know what hes doing next.
Furthermore the reason why Mister X was so good was because he was a telepath not because of his MA skill thats why he lost when Wolverine went beserk.
When did Taskmaster walk over Cap?
Right ok so when somebody says "Even such and such himself." What does this mean? Does it mean you think that person is superior to you or inferior?
No they dont. Korvac saga.
Wolverine was training in MA before WW2, so that would explain it.
I bet Zartan didnt say that did he. Making assumptions?
Wolverine beat him because he went beserk AND because Taskmaster saved his life. When the Hulks goes beserk it doesnt make him a MA.
According to Jinzin Cap beat Shang and several other people at the sametime so yeah he has.
PIS. Wolverine doesnt have showings to match people like Cap and DD. Cap in a weaker dying body of the Red Skull has been able to stun Goliath with one finger, proceed to dodge yellowjackets blast and then knock him on his back with a punch. When Wolverine does stuff like that on a regular basis then Wolverine gets to be in the same league as Cap and DD.
Already explained.
Blowing things out of proportion again? He was an Urban legend so what? All that proves is that Wolverines status is different. Cap is a symbol Wolverine is an Urban legend.
Apparetly in House of M people were crying that Cap wasnt still around no more. Hell when superheroes have problems people always go to Cap for help not Wolverine. 馃檮
I'm only in for a second but I'm almost 100% that the issue before that one (Captain America 16?) it gives the exact number of time reboots as 72 (around 70 at the least). Captain American didn't retain his memory for those 72 reboots either, only the 4 or 5 after... and he spent all his time organizing rebellions, recruiting allies, and convincing Johny Average-man to stand up to Korvak. Not so much time for training.
I'm not sure if I'll have time to respond to the rest this week. I'm pretty busy with work and updating my portfolio... and my friend is dragging me to Port Dover on the 13th for the huge biker gathering.
