Originally posted by Grimm22
That's you're opinion on my opinion 😐
no, thats the fact regarding your opinion since he neither said that nor alluded to that. if you were a journalist you'd likely be fired (unless you were a fox 'journalist', in which case they would give you your own prime time segment)
Originally posted by Schecteror maybe beheaded by men in cool black masks?
no, thats the fact regarding your opinion since he neither said that nor alluded to that. if you were a journalist you'd likely be fired (unless you were a fox 'journalist', in which case they would give you your own prime time segmant)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Obama: Genocide isn't that big of a deal
Originally posted by Schecter
imho obama is just another cookie cutter presidential candidate who really doesnt show the leadership characteristics we need. imho the only one fit for the job is edwards, but yes, people are stupid and the democrats likely wont want to nominate a white male....imagine that, huh?
Hey, im not saying I want Obama either, he doesn't impress me much. I agree with a lot of what he says, but he impresses me no more than Hilary Clinton, Al Gore, John Edwards, or John McCain do.
Democrats in this case, seem to be rather bias trying to push for Hilary or Obama, for the sake of change, which yes is great, but not entirely relevant considering the current Iraqi crisis and the mistake this country made invading the Arab World.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Obama: Genocide isn't that big of a deal
Originally posted by Goddess KaliDemocrats in this case, seem to be rather bias trying to push for Hilary or Obama, for the sake of change, which yes is great, but not entirely relevant considering the current Iraqi crisis and the mistake this country made invading the Arab World.
Ummm, aren't they supposed to be pushing for "change" considering there is not a Democrat in the White House?
I'm trying to see how the thesis to that sentence but it is not coming to me.
"...not relevant considering the current Iraqi crisis and the mistake this country made invading the Arab World." - guess I just don't quite follow the point of this part
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
What exactly is your point here ? I am not discussing Afghanistan, I am discussing Iraq. Our search for Bin Ladin in Afghanistan was justified, our invasion of Iraq, and the bombing of innocent civilians as well as the destruction of historical monuments was [b]NOT.[/B]
You have to remember that in my first post of this thread I said arguing about the reasons for war is useless and a waste of time. Further, I was and am still against the invasion of Iraq.
The reason I was discussing Afghanistan was to illustrate a situation that was in fact quite similar to Iraq. A major superpower destroyed whatever government and institutions existed and were eventually forced to retreat due to an asymmetrical war of attrition fought by the international Mujahadeen. From there, the most radical and fundamentalists group was able to take power through enforcing the most restrictive regime possible, which demoralized any opposition to them with fear.
Another potent example may be the Iranian Revolution of 1979. It started as a socialist movement against what was seen as an oppressive government that was too friendly to the West and was hogging oil revenue from the people. After the government fell, there was a struggle, and the rest is recent history. Now Iran is a theocratic oppressive regime that supports terror and wants a nuclear bomb.
How is this relevant to Iraq then? Well, for instance, Iraq is now in a power vacuum with no centralized authority. Extremist groups are fighting each other to impose their own style of Sharia law.
Do you really not see the connection?
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Why were we in Iraq in the First Place ?We overthrew an evil dictator..good, but there are plenty more evil dictators all over the world. Why did we never overthrow them?
China tortures thier own people, and animals as well. Why don't we overthrow the chinese government? What about Korea ? What about the African genocides that have been occuring for decades ?
Cuz they have no oil...that's basically what it comes down to. To help those people serves us in no way. To invade Iraq and Iran, and take away thier valued resources serves the government's financial agenda.
War is Business. It always has been. This is not a War for freedom. This was an invasion.
You are right, get over it
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
What do you imagine we can possibly do for the Iraqi culture that would not take atleast 20 years ?Do you honestly beleive that we can solve all thier problems in 5 years ? Be realistic...they have been living their lifestyles for centuries. They are not going to just "civilize" or "westernize" in a short period of time.
The agenda to create an American like society in Iraq and Iran may take a century if we are lucky.
Totally off topic. 1) You assume I support the idea of toppling dictators to establish democracies 2) American democracies at that (when I am not even American 😕 ) 3) and that I wanted it done in Iraq.
However. A situation that your or my dislike for couldn't prevent from occuring occured, and since time travel is not yet a possible solution, we need to deal with reality as it is now, not how we wanted it to be years ago.
To tell you the honest truth, I don't care too much personally about what happens to Iraq. The problem is, in other situations where the most extreme elements of radical Islam have been able to take over a government, it has become a dangerous situation for the World.
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
What does this have to do with Iraq and Iran ?
A common argument to mine is to say that the only reason we need to be afraid of extreme Islam is because we are over there fighting wars, and that to pull out of Iraq would end the animosity towards Americans felt by those who live there.
There may be some truth to this, and in Canada even more so, however, it wasn't an argument you made, so... I guess it has nothing to do with what we are talking about 🙂
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
But why are we in Iraq ? Why is Iran next ?
We both know the answer to this
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Soon its gonna be Pakistan, India ...I can see it now ..." People of America..It's just been discovered that Pakistan and Bangladesh are harboring weapons of mass destruction, and have been providing safe havens for Terrorists. We must stop all nations who support terrorism"
🙄
Conspiracy Forum
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Meanwhile, United States has been one of the greatest of terrorists to other nations. We have committed genocides as well, we have bombed many nations and people throughout history. We have supported Blood Diamond industries, as well as child labor.WHAT THE **** makes US so much greater ????
Not even close to what I was arguing, but sure, what makes the US greater is that you can freely access the internet and speak your opinion on such corrupt actions without the secret police coming to your door and making you disappear. Man, leftists don't seem to appreciate the real core of western values. Like freedom... /sigh
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Would the world be better off without the Chinese, Korean, Russian, and African leaders as well ?
Would it?
Originally posted by Schecter
the fact is that iraq is a puppet democracy and iraqis have no sense of patriotism/nationalism. i feel that the only solution for iraq is to destroy it. not with weapons but with new boarders and new sovereign nations. this wont be allowed because it would naturally lead to a new cooperative shiite iranian neighbor, essentially an expansion of iran.thats my take on it all: split it up.
similar proposals have been made by republicans but with the notion that they would all have a central body of government. this imho would be an utter flop
correct outlook but i think for different reasons...even if all external influences such as Iran were taken out of the equation...the reason the break up of Iraq would never work is that all the resources that matter ( oil and that's about it) are in what would become Shia and kurdish controlled areas leaving the sunni's with absolutely nothing...except a desire to gain those resources
Re: Re: Re: Re: Obama: Genocide isn't that big of a deal
Originally posted by Schecter
imho obama is just another cookie cutter presidential candidate who really doesnt show the leadership characteristics we need. imho the only one fit for the job is edwards, but yes, people are stupid and the democrats likely wont want to nominate a white male....imagine that, huh?
Yep. Black aside, he lacks savvy.
Originally posted by jaden101
correct outlook but i think for different reasons...even if all external influences such as Iran were taken out of the equation...the reason the break up of Iraq would never work is that all the resources that matter ( oil and that's about it) are in what would become Shia and kurdish controlled areas leaving the sunni's with absolutely nothing...except a desire to gain those resources
well i think the trick is division of those resources, giving each their share. yeah, im well aware of the years of bitchery this would bring about, but far less than just leaving the sunis [sp?] with nothing more than a sandpit. well....what other option is there really *shrug*
Originally posted by jaden101
correct outlook but i think for different reasons...even if all external influences such as Iran were taken out of the equation...the reason the break up of Iraq would never work is that all the resources that matter ( oil and that's about it) are in what would become Shia and kurdish controlled areas leaving the sunni's with absolutely nothing...except a desire to gain those resources
Even if you could come over the natural resources problem, you would still have nations that nobody wants. Turkey will not accept a Kurdish state. Saudi Arabia does not want a state loyal to Iran and Iran surely does not want another state like Saddam around. But Iran it's opinion is least relevant.
The only thing that can happen here is civil war, and we best pray that somebody secular stands up and takes over and forces it's people to comply, although it seems unlikely. Religion gives you a lot of followers. The only thing the US can realistically do is find somebody in Iraq who is cruel and does not hate the US, then give that guy all the support he needs to create a state like the one Saddam had created.
If Muslims want to dwell in their 1000 year old state of brutal sectarian hate. Let them!
Stacking heads on street corners, blowing up mosques with other Muslims in them, raping women who hold down jobs, blowing up kids in market places is their choice they made after Saddam fell.
Saddam routinely killed and tortured fellow Muslims and none of this so called worldwide Muslim Brotherhood (LMAO) gave a damn. I must have missed the Brit Muslims going over to Baghdad to blow themselves up becuase they cared so much!!
Without the coalition ousting Saddam the lousy Shi'ites would still be having their ears cut off by Saddam (ears being regrafted by british doctors I might add) instead of being the majority in the Government!!! And for this they dare to attack British troops! Scum.
So if they want to butcher each other now that they are off Saddam's leash..let them! It seems Saddam knew why he kept his fellow Muslims on a lead because he knew they had not evolved away from the dark ages. As has been proven once they choose to use their freedom to brutally butcher each other!
They had a choice post Saddam and they chose to butcher their neighbours with the barbarity and hate their religion thrives on.
Leave them to it.
Originally posted by 42ndStreetFreak
If Muslims want to dwell in their 1000 year old state of brutal sectarian hate. Let them!Stacking heads on street corners, blowing up mosques with other Muslims in them, raping women who hold down jobs, blowing up kids in market places is their choice they made after Saddam fell.
Saddam routinely killed and tortured fellow Muslims and none of this so called worldwide Muslim Brotherhood (LMAO) gave a damn. I must have missed the Brit Muslims going over to Baghdad to blow themselves up becuase they cared so much!!
Without the coalition ousting Saddam the lousy Shi'ites would still be having their ears cut off by Saddam (ears being regrafted by british doctors I might add) instead of being the majority in the Government!!! And for this they dare to attack British troops! Scum.
So if they want to butcher each other now that they are off Saddam's leash..let them! It seems Saddam knew why he kept his fellow Muslims on a lead because he knew they had not evolved away from the dark ages. As has been proven once they choose to use their freedom to brutally butcher each other!
They had a choice post Saddam and they chose to butcher their neighbours with the barbarity and hate their religion thrives on.
Leave them to it.
Look up the term Mujahadeen.
The vast majority of muslims, whether in Iraq or not, do not support violence (even if they are on the side of resisting American control of Iraq).
Many Iraqi civilians, especially the women, do actually want US troops there (its more complex than that of course, seeing as many of them also would be strong Iraqi nationalists). However, people in the west are never exposed to these voices through our media. This is not sufficent justification for the war or the continued occupation imho, but to uniformly claim that the citizens of Iraq are not happy to be done with Saddam is ignorant to such a degree that, were I not a more mature individual, I would say it bordered on "racial" prejudice (not that I think Islam is a race, but statistically speaking there are more black than arab muslums, and my assumption is that you are speaking of the Arabs and not the blacks).
LinkTV offers an english translation of news programs from the Middle East. It is EXACTLY the same as ours, and when they do interview the common man, be it in Gaza, Terhan or Jerusalem, they have the same concerns and priorities that we do. It is very easy to look at the world the TV shows us and just assume that all muslums are crazy psychopaths, but it is really not the case.
The normal people who live in Iraq, not the fundamentalist religious nuts, want electricity, running water, schools and employment. They do not want to be blown up or to fight their brothers.
The comparison you are making would be like me saying that all Christians are violent and evil because of the actions of those associated with the Army of God (who is still to this day responsible for much more terrorism in the US than Al Qaeda could ever hope for in their greatest wet dream).
OH, and to be frank, the Muslim Brotherhood was not a supporter of Saddam Hussein. While they both are Sunnis, Saddam was not interested in harboring groups that would compete with him for power in the country, and extremeist Islamic groups would have certainly seen Iraq as being quite Western. Remember, these are the same people who now say that Hamas has sold out to Western powers by not brutally murdering more people in the Gaza strip.
I never said THE Muslim Brotherhood. i meant this supposed Muslim Brotherhood that exists whenever any Muslim anywhere in the world is wronged (well, wronged by any non_Muslims that is).
And you only have to read the most basic and common of reports from Iraq to see that it is literally next dorr neighbour killing next door neighbour.
Mobs ripping apart their own.
Not 'militants' or Mujahadeen or so called fighters against occupation. But ordinary Muslims.
Butchering each other because they are the wrong Muslim.
American trrops were told to be careful of mosques 9despite them being used as firing points) out of respect. Muslims on all sides then routinely blew them up with other Muslim in them!
More muslims are killed, tortured and oppressed by other Muslims than anyone else.
Muslims in The West have more freedoms and safety not only than most Muslims in Muslim countries but also compared to any non-Muslims in Muslim countries.
This pandering to the world's most barbaric, enevolved religion and it's creeping power throughout the entire Western world has to stop. This self blame and self hate has to stop Or all you bleaters will wake up in a country that will have you crying for what once was. Bush and all.
Originally posted by 42ndStreetFreak
I never said THE Muslim Brotherhood. i meant this supposed Muslim Brotherhood that exists whenever any Muslim anywhere in the world is wronged (well, wronged by any non_Muslims that is).
ya, THE Islamic Brotherhood is an Egyptian organization started by Said Qutb. What you are talking about is either "Jihad" or the Mujahadeen.
Originally posted by 42ndStreetFreak
And you only have to read the most basic and common of reports from Iraq to see that it is literally next dorr neighbour killing next door neighbour.
Mobs ripping apart their own.
1) Shia is not Sunni.
2) this is just statistically false. There are more people in Iraq who are not killing eachother than are.
3) Yes, there is violence, nobody is saying that there is not
4) What point is this trying to make...
Originally posted by 42ndStreetFreak
Not 'militants' or Mujahadeen or so called fighters against occupation. But ordinary Muslims.
Butchering each other because they are the wrong Muslim.
/sigh
point?
Originally posted by 42ndStreetFreak
American trrops were told to be careful of mosques 9despite them being used as firing points) out of respect. Muslims on all sides then routinely blew them up with other Muslim in them!
what I read here is: They are unwilling to be civilized so we shouldn't be. which is attrocious
Originally posted by 42ndStreetFreak
More muslims are killed, tortured and oppressed by other Muslims than anyone else.
Muslims in The West have more freedoms and safety not only than most Muslims in Muslim countries but also compared to any non-Muslims in Muslim countries.
yes, and?
Originally posted by 42ndStreetFreak
This pandering to the world's most barbaric, enevolved religion and it's creeping power throughout the entire Western world has to stop. This self blame and self hate has to stop Or all you bleaters will wake up in a country that will have you crying for what once was. Bush and all.
I think you should try speaking to a normal person from the middle east.
Do you assume that because the army of God kills abortion doctors that all Christians want to kill abortion doctors?
but, all in all, you are REALLY ignorant of this part of the world. Your use of the term Muslim Brotherhood is a glaring example of this. Learn something, figure out what your point is, and then we can have a mature discussion