Odin (with reality gem), Onslaught, Apocalypse, and Korvac vs One Celestial

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I'm just going to repost my rationale against ascribing Apocalypse some super telepath status:

1) It was a one-time occurrence, the sole time I've seen Apocalypse use such telepathy if it was such telepathy.

Well not its not. Hes been able to read Ozys minds. He has used his mind to psionically punk Jean Grey

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

2) There's no conclusiveness as to whether it was even telepathy. Telepathy is not normally accompanied by sound effects. Energy blasts on the other hand may be.

I dunno man im pretty sure ive seen some cases were mind blasts do make sound effects.

Mind blasts usually are shown as energy around the persons head and also it did not seem to do any physical damage. It was also not seen emanting like a regular blast from Apoc like Cyclops optic blasts and just appeared around Xaviers head.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

3) Xavier wasn't even rendered unconscious. It wasn't a "toe-to-toe" telepathic fight, it was one possibly telepathic sucker punch.
and....

His head was thrown back and he was helpless when he got hit. You dont neccesarily have to be Koed. Also Apoc wasnt even trying.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

4) And? How exactly does that show superior telepathic power or skill to Xavier. Telepaths are not automatically immune to any and all forms telepathy. Telepaths do constantly screen out thoughts with their powers, but they do not constantly defend.

Ok we dont know for certain but if I were going up against Apoc I would defend myself because im not sure what Apoc would come up with.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot


Emma telepathically sucker punching Nate does not make her a superior psi - despite her proclamation.

It would make her powerful though wouldnt it?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

With regards to Nate vs Apocalypse, not in a telepathic face-off as far as I'm aware.

Ok. I'll look into it, from what I know Nate was ****ing his pants.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Ikaris was the Prime Eternal, as such his abilities as an Eternal should have been amplified. He was defeated by being stabbed.

Well this is the thing. Apoc gets amped by Celestial tech. If Ikaris is prime that means its a great feat for Apoc because obvously it would take a great deal of force to stab.

If Luke Cage gets stabbed hes not an idiot it means that the person who has managed to stabed him is powerful.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Sersi, not the Prime Eternal, has had her arm atomized, subsequently escaped, remained intangible as she plummeted through the atmosphere, crashed into the sublevels of the Pentagon, and then regenerated her arm. She's also reconstituted herself from being atomized. She also helped a race form a Uni-Mind to defeat the Collector, an Elder of the Universe.

Ergo he fought like an idiot, in my books.

I dont see how that changes anything. Apoc has Celestial tech so im assuming that this is the reason why he was able to stab Ikaris. Regardless of wether he is Prime or not being stabbed in the hurt would still hurt alot, it wouldnt kill him but it would still hurt.

TricksterPriest often posts his list of "high end telepathic feats" from Apocalypse. Most of them don't actually involve active telepathy, including the Jean Grey incident. In it he refers to her power in a tone that indicates he doesn't have it/will have to prepare for it in future - it is something novel to him. The event shows strong mental defenses definitely. It doesn't really show active telepathic ability. Additionally in Search for Cyclops Jean holds Apocalypse telepathically and ejects him from Scott's body.

So the single instance must make her > Apocalypse... but then the other single instance must make Apocalypse > Xavier.... but then Xavier's feats make him > Jean sans Phoenix... hmm

Apocalypse lacks the feats to be considered a first order telepath.

The panel is small. Psiblasts generally do not make noise as far as I'm aware. I didn't say it conclusively wasn't a telepathic attack, but then I'm not completely convinced that it was.

Emma is a first order psi, with many feats to verify her telepathic prowess. She is not more powerful than Nate, though, not even equal to him - much as I love 'er.

The incident with Emma and Nate is merely intended to show that telepaths are not immune to telepathy themselves. Nor are they constantly defending against telepathic attack. Nor does hurting a telepath with a telepathic sucker punch indicate that the one who did so is necessarily powerful, equal in power to, or superior to the telepath who was hurt.

The Prime Eternal is intended to be around Skyfather level; Zuras as the Prime Eternal stalemated Zeus. That Ikaris was downed by being stabbed when Sersi who isn't the Prime Eternal has done so much more, tells me he was badly written.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
TricksterPriest often posts his list of "high end telepathic feats" from Apocalypse. Most of them don't actually involve active telepathy, including the Jean Grey incident. In it he refers to her power in a tone that indicates he doesn't have it/will have to prepare for it in future - it is something novel to him. The event shows strong mental defenses definitely. It doesn't really show active telepathic ability. Additionally in Search for Cyclops Jean holds Apocalypse telepathically and ejects him from Scott's body.

So the single instance must make her > Apocalypse... but then the other single instance must make Apocalypse > Xavier.... but then Xavier's feats make him > Jean sans Phoenix... hmm

Apocalypse lacks the feats to be considered a first order telepath.

Ok but im pretty sure he reads Ozy's mind, so this indicates that he does have mental powers and if he has a strong mind his mental powers should be greater than Jeans.

Considering that he resisted Jean in a weakened state, theres no way Jean should be able to eject Apoc like that.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

The panel is small. Psiblasts generally do not make noise as far as I'm aware. I didn't say it conclusively wasn't a telepathic attack, but then I'm not completely convinced that it was.

Fair enough but I think it was given the reasons.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Emma is a first order psi, with many feats to verify her telepathic prowess. She is not more powerful than Nate, though, not even equal to him - much as I love 'er.

The incident with Emma and Nate is merely intended to show that telepaths are not immune to telepathy themselves. Nor are they constantly defending against telepathic attack. Nor does hurting a telepath with a telepathic sucker punch indicate that the one who did so is necessarily powerful, equal in power to, or superior to the telepath who was hurt.

Ok agreed but it seems to me that you would still need to be powerful to hurt a strong psionic.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

The Prime Eternal is intended to be around Skyfather level; Zuras as the Prime Eternal stalemated Zeus. That he was downed by being stabbed when Sersi who isn't the Prime Eternal has done so much more, tells me he was badly written.

Yes I understand but my logic is that it was not a convetional stabbing.

Odin and Zeus are very powerful but if they were to get stabbed in the heart it would hurt alot, but for them to be stabbed in the first place it would take something very powerful.

There isn't anything to suggest that it was anything besides a straightforward physical attack. He wasn't stabbed through the heart, he was stabbed through the abdomen afaik - a wound an Eternal, let alone the Prime Eternal, should be able to regenerate from without a deal of difficulty.

In any event none of the above really makes Apocalypse any sort of threat to a Celestial...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
There isn't anything to suggest that it was anything besides a straightforward physical attack. He wasn't stabbed through the heart, he was stabbed through the abdomen afaik - a wound an Eternal, let alone the Prime Eternal, should be able to regenerate from without a deal of difficulty.

I guess its like The Asargadian Destroyer cutting of a Celestials arm. Sure he cut it off but it didnt mean a damn thing because The Celestial regenerated with a minimum of fuss.

Well this the thing I agree he should be able to regenerate and all fairness he wasnt down long, I still think it would hurt because the force needed to penetrate him must have been alot.

I think we could at least say that despite the stabbing incident that Apoc can give Ikaris a good fight.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

In any event none of the above really makes Apocalypse any sort of threat to a Celestial...

Well ok heres my logic. I think Apoc still has mental powers strong enough to rival Prof X due to the reasons given.

Now from my understanding Onslaught is a combo of Prox and Magneto, gaining a mind like Apoc would make him really powerful like when he aborbed Nates mind. Ok I dont know if his mind is as strong as Nates but Nate seemed to be scared of Apoc.

Apparently when Onslaught merged with Nate and Franklin he became more powerful than a Clestial. Im hoping that Apoc will be my Nate and Odin with reality gem and Korvac will be my Franklin Richards.

Korvac by the way is powerful enough to stop an alien race from existing by waving his hands. He would be a great asset because apparently Onslaught used Franklins reality warping powers.

I believe that the realty gem is dangerous to use if not accompanied by the other gems and some one of Dr. Strange level was able to defeat each gem individualy.

This battle still goes to the one Celestial and the only ones that he needs to worry about are Odin and Korvac. Onslaught has never been more powerful than a Celestial but has the potential to surpass them and as we all now that was never accomplished and Apocalypse isn't really going to change this outcome.

Alfheim if you already believe that Onslaught is already greater than the Celestials than this battle is pointless and why back him up with three other characters.

Originally posted by Power16
I believe that the realty gem is dangerous to use if not accompanied by the other gems and some one of Dr. Strange level was able to defeat each gem individualy.

At any rate Odin with a reality gem will be hella powerful.

Originally posted by Power16

This battle still goes to the one Celestial and the only ones that he needs to worry about are Odin and Korvac. Onslaught has never been more powerful than a Celestial but has the potential to surpass them and as we all now that was never accomplished and Apocalypse isn't really going to change this outcome.

Well not according to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onslaught_(comics)

Onslaught was considered to be one of the most powerful Marvel Characters on Earth 616 itself, easily surpassing the Celestials due to Franklin Richard's power, who rivals the Celestials in potential, in addition to X-Man's and Onslaught's own powers combined with Franklin's.

Originally posted by Power16

Alfheim if you already believe that Onslaught is already greater than the Celestials than this battle is pointless and why back him up with three other characters.

thats not what I said. I said:

Originally posted by Alfheim

Apparently when Onslaught merged with Nate and Franklin he became more powerful than a Clestial. Im hoping that Apoc will be my Nate and Odin with reality gem and Korvac will be my Franklin Richards.

Korvac by the way is powerful enough to stop an alien race from existing by waving his hands. He would be a great asset because apparently Onslaught used Franklins reality warping powers.

Ok! I do get tired of hearing one of the most powerful, that is used to much and come on wikipedia!

That's the thing though when he merged with Nate and Franklin he didn't become more powerful than a celestial and nothing he did during his time showed him more powerful than the likes of Odin.

Which is why i said he has the potential and to me it seems as if he was using franklin powers with franklin's mental block since he did nothing that was extraordinary.

Originally posted by Power16
Ok! I do get tired of hearing one of the most powerful, that is used to much and come on wikipedia!

That's the thing though when he merged with Nate and Franklin he didn't become more powerful than a celestial and nothing he did during his time showed him more powerful than the likes of Odin.

Which is why i said he has the potential and to me it seems as if he was using franklin powers with franklin's mental block since he did nothing that was extraordinary.

You know what I dunno about that people seem to think that Onslaught with Franklin and Nate was extremely powerfuln heel they guy created a second sun....that aint bad.

Onslaught alone could do it. Korvac also if he would absorb enough power.
Odin with gem could also do it alone.

Apocalypse is a non factor. Yes, he has defeated PE Ikaris, who is very powerful, he was actually better than HE, was also clearly match for Loki, but non of them are on Celestial level.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The Prime Eternal is intended to be around Skyfather level; Zuras as the Prime Eternal stalemated Zeus. That Ikaris was downed by being stabbed when Sersi who isn't the Prime Eternal has done so much more, tells me he was badly written.

No, not really. As joke as Apocalypse can be, if he shows sometimes some great feat or power level, even those who hate Apocalypse aren't surprised by what he has done, because they realize he should be like the always as he was intended in the first place.

Actually mostly the hate towards Apocalypse comes because he isn't written as what he should be.
But when he does something great, no one is surprised, all know it's within his capabilities.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Onslaught alone could do it. Korvac also if he would absorb enough power.
Odin with gem could also do it alone.

For real? I guess that kinda makes sense. Korvac got his powers from draining Galactus's ship so its just a matter how much power he can get.

You serioulsy think Odin with reality gem could do it alone? Hmmm I know The Gardener took on The Stranger with a gem but I dont think Stranger is anywhere near Celestial level.

How could Onslaught do it alone?

Originally posted by Alfheim
I think Apoc still has mental powers strong enough to rival Prof X due to the reasons given.

-He is shown to have strong mental defenses in one instance; in which he incidentally appears to find Jean Grey's telepathy a novelty. Of course this is contradicted by Jean in a another appearance telepathically holding him.
-He has one somewhat ambiguous instance of a telepathic sucker punch which really doesn't give any gauge whatsoever as to the level of telepathic power nor skill; as telepaths themselves are not immune to telepathy anyway nor do they constantly defend from telepathic attack. A psiblast is a relatively crude use of telepathy, any telepath from a random Morlock to Hector Hammond, would likely achieve the same or similar, were they to do the same thing.

Xavier has thrice harnessed mental energy on a planetary scale; to drive away the Z'nox, to attack Ego, the Living Planet, and to try and dissuade Galactus from consuming the Skrull throneworld.
He used to scan the cosmos for life before Magneto altered the Earth's magnetic fields to limit telepathic range. His telepathy has however traversed star systems.
They recently had him access the Universal Collective Unconsciousness.
His power spawned Onslaught, as well as a powerful Mummudrai, Cassandra Nova.
He battled Dark Phoenix on the Astral plane, and defeated her, albeit with the aid of Jean's good nature fighting to help him.
He was alongside Thanos and Adam Warlock fighting the Goddess, with his telepathy.

Until he does anything comparable to Xavier, then he doesn't rival Xavier.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Onslaught alone could do it.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Odin with gem could also do it alone.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Apocalypse is a non factor. Yes, he has defeated PE Ikaris, who is very powerful, he was actually better than HE, was also clearly match for Loki, but non of them are on Celestial level.

No, not really. As joke as Apocalypse can be, if he shows sometimes some great feat or power level, even those who hate Apocalypse aren't surprised by what he has done, because they realize he should be like the always as he was intended in the first place.

Actually mostly the hate towards Apocalypse comes because he isn't written as what he should be.
But when he does something great, no one is surprised, all know it's within his capabilities.

Originally posted by Alfheim
For real? I guess that kinda makes sense. Korvac got his powers from draining Galactus's ship so its just a matter how much power he can get.

You serioulsy think Odin with reality gem could do it alone? Hmmm I know The Gardener took on The Stranger with a gem but I dont think Stranger is anywhere near Celestial level.

How could Onslaught do it alone?

Onslaught power level goes beyond Celestial. Franklin Richards is equal to the Celestial, Onslaught had the total power of Franklin and under control.
He also had Magneto, Xavier and more importantly X-Man, who is extremely powerful.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Ikaris did nothing in that fight worthy of the title Prime Eternal. He barely did anything in that fight worthy of the species Eternal.

Or is that actually because PE Ikaris couldn't and didn't do anything, because he couldn't, Apocalypse didn't allow it. Apocalypse was written well and crushed him.
He couldn't do anything to Apocalypse. And looking the past, that Apocalypse fought HE and Loki, is no surprise he fought another powerful cosmic being and actually defeat him.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Of course this is contradicted by Jean in a another appearance telepathically holding him.

You mean by the end of The Search for Cyclops?

Wasn't that just because of the love bond between Cyke and Jean?

In the fight with Loki, Loki hits his head and falls down. Caliban attacks him. He gets trapped in a machine. The machine is broken, and Loki leaves. That is a shitty depiction of Loki.

In the fight with Ikaris, Ikaris flies at Apocalypse and punches him, he is caught in Apocalypse's hold, for some reason forgetting that like all Eternals he has the ability to teleport, and is stabbed through the stomach, at which point he also forgets, like all Eternals, he has the ability to regenerate. All the while forgetting other Eternal abilities, oh and forgetting that he's the Prime Eternal. He suffocates in space, when Sersi has survived before in space unaided, iirc. And has to be rescued by the other Eternals. That is a shitty depiction of an Eternal, and it is an especially shitty depiction of the Prime Eternal.

Originally posted by Evil_Ash
You mean by the end of The Search for Cyclops?

Wasn't that just because of the love bond between Cyke and Jean?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The thing is though his mental powers don't rival Xavier's. 😬

Well I think it does and i'll try and explain.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

-He is shown to have strong mental defenses in one instance; in which he incidentally appears to find Jean Grey's telepathy a novelty.

Yes thats true, but what did I say afterwards? Apoc clearly has telepathic powers because he read Ozys mind.

Now I know that him resisting Jean could be just a strong mind, but my point is that if he has telepathic powers (which he does) AND his mind is stronger than Jeans than he must have stronger telepathic powers than Jean.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Of course this is contradicted by Jean in a another appearance telepathically holding him.

Isnt that PIS? How is it that Apoc in a weakened state resisted Jean then all of a sudden cant take her. Thats the very defintion of PIS. You know they call Apocalypse Jobercalypse.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

-He has one somewhat ambiguous instance of a telepathic sucker punch which really doesn't give any gauge whatsoever as to the level of telepathic power nor skill; as telepaths themselves are not immune to telepathy anyway nor do they constantly defend from telepathic attack. A psiblast is a relatively crude use of telepathy, any telepath from a random Morlock to Hector Hammond, would likely achieve the same or similar, were they to do the same thing.

Yes and you gave an example of Emma stunning Nate, but I got the impresssion that you agreed that she had to be powerful to hurt Nate. Also in my opinion that was a mindblast, if you dont think it was fine.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Xavier has thrice harnessed mental energy on a planetary scale; to drive away the Z'nox, to attack Ego, the Living Planet, and to try and dissuade Galactus from consuming the Skrull throneworld.
He used to scan the cosmos for life before Magneto altered the Earth's magnetic fields to limit telepathic range. His telepathy has however traversed star systems.
They recently had him access the Universal Collective Unconsciousness.
His power spawned Onslaught, as well as a powerful Mummudrai, Cassandra Nova.
He battled Dark Phoenix on the Astral plane, and defeated her, albeit with the aid of Jean's good nature fighting to help him.
He was alongside Thanos and Adam Warlock fighting the Goddess, with his telepathy.

Until he does anything comparable to Xavier, then he doesn't rival Xavier.

Ok let me summarise. Isnt Jean Grey almost as powerful as Xavier? If Apoc can resist her mind in a weakened state that shows he has a strong mind. Now we know that he has telepathic powers (reading Ozys mind), logic dictates that he must therefore have powers greater than Jeans.

Now if he has powers greater than Jean it implies to me that even if he is not stronger than Xavier he will give him a run for his money.

Didnt Apoc mind control the inhumans including a powerful psychic?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Ikaris did nothing in that fight worthy of the title Prime Eternal. He barely did anything in that fight worthy of the species Eternal.

You are just basing that on the stabbing. Even if you think he should have regnerated from the stabbing quicker there is nothing to say that the rest of the fight was badly written. Its only badly written because you dont think Ikaris should have lost. Apoc has Celestial tech...AND Ikaris has stated that they have fought many times before, this therefore indicates that Apoc is on Ikaris's level.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Onslaught power level goes beyond Celestial. Franklin Richards is equal to the Celestial, Onslaught had the total power of Franklin and under control.
He also had Magneto, Xavier and more importantly X-Man, who is extremely powerful.

Yes Onslaught needed Franklin and Nates power to become more powerful than a Celestial. In this thread he just has Xaviers and Magnetos.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Now I know that him resisting Jean could be just a strong mind, but my point is that if he has telepathic powers (which he does) AND his mind is stronger than Jeans than he must have stronger telepathic powers than Jean.

Magneto has a strong mind, he has formidable psychic defenses and is a weak telepath.

Having formidable psychic defenses is one thing.
Having some telepathic ability is one thing.
One does not imply the level of the other.

All this coupled with the fact that Apocalypse has next to no telepathic feats, and certainly none that would put him at Xavier's level. Or even Jean's level. He has a psiblast. That's about it. Actually, no, that is it.

This:

doesn't make Emma Frost a telekinetic.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes and you gave an example of Emma stunning Nate, but I got the impresssion that you agreed that she had to be powerful to hurt Nate.

Because as noted above, having strong telepathic ability does not mean one necessarily has strong passive mental defense. No vice versa.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok let me summarise. Isnt Jean Grey almost as powerful as Xavier? If Apoc can resist her mind in a weakened state that shows he has a strong mind. Now we know that he has telepathic powers (reading Ozys mind), logic dictates that he must therefore have powers greater than Jeans.

Now if he has powers greater than Jean it implies to me that even if he is not stronger than Xavier he will give him a run for his money.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Didnt Apoc mind control the inhumans including a powerful psychic?

Originally posted by Alfheim
You are just basing that on the stabbing. Even if you think he should have regnerated from the stabbing quicker there is nothing to say that the rest of the fight was badly written. Its only badly written because you dont think Ikaris should have lost. Apoc has Celestial tech...AND Ikaris has stated that they have fought many times before, this therefore indicates that Apoc is on Ikaris's level.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
In the fight with Loki, Loki hits his head and falls down. Caliban attacks him. He gets trapped in a machine. The machine is broken, and Loki leaves. That is a shitty depiction of Loki.

In the fight with Ikaris, Ikaris flies at Apocalypse and punches him, he is caught in Apocalypse's hold, for some reason forgetting that like all Eternals he has the ability to teleport, and is stabbed through the stomach, at which point he also forgets, like all Eternals, he has the ability to regenerate. All the while forgetting other Eternal abilities, oh and forgetting that he's the Prime Eternal. He suffocates in space, when Sersi has survived before in space unaided, iirc. And has to be rescued by the other Eternals. That is a shitty depiction of an Eternal, and it is an especially shitty depiction of the Prime Eternal.

But did Ikaris even think about teleporting? He could have been trying to physically free himself from Apoc's bear hug. Anyway I believe Apoc stabbed him right away he got a hold of him, so he didn't have an moment to try teleporting....

Originally posted by Alfheim
Isnt that PIS? How is it that Apoc in a [B]weakened state resisted Jean then all of a sudden cant take her.[/B]

I think it's PIS. Because before this, he actually does resist Jean Grey and Cyclops' love bond...