DE Sidious Vs Exar Kun and Naga Sadow

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. If you managed to find some super secret, antagonistic message in what I said, I really can't help you.

That's why I asked, rather than assumed. Just curious why you think I'd somehow inaccurately portray my knowledge on this subject.

A fairly inexperienced Luke with twenty years less experience manage to outduel him.

Actually, DE Luke has performed some feats on par with his (much) older self. This is part of the reason I hate the comic series. His 'uberpowers' vanish without a trace after Palpatine dies and don't return until like, twenty years later.
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LS:

That will be QUITE enough of that, Janus, because I've claimed on numerous occasions the following people would very well be capable of outdueling him: Luke, Mace, Yoda, possibly Jacen. For DE Palpatine? Luke is the only one of those who'd stand a chance.

Let's be brutally honest with each other here, LS. As Escape's noted above, the number one problem we have with each other isn't our overall personalities or our levels of education or even that we share different views on different topics.

The number one problem we have with each other is that I don't recognize Sidious as the best Sith Lord in the entire history of Sithdom simply because you and Escape believe it to be so badly. I mean really, that's what it comes down to. Most if not all of our major battles consist of what?

A. Anything negative said about Sidious that could possibly undermine his badassness.

B. Anything postive said about ancient Sith who pose a threat to Sidious' lofty position in your own hierarchy of How Things Should Be.

C. Anything negative said about the PT era Jedi who are the bar by which we measure Sidious' accomplishments since if they are complete weaklings, by association he must be too. Ergo, they must be sabergods and Force gods so he can look better by comparison.

Now, back to the above quoted line, when I say what I said above, I'm speaking from my own experience. True, I have been gone for over a year now and have only recently come back. But the bottom line is that I haven't seen you claim that any of the above could beat Sidious in any incarnation. This is my own viewpoint based on my own findings. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. But quite frankly it's what I'm seeing, and have always seen since the two of you came to these forums.

I hardly appreciate that when I've made more than an effort to be polite to you in recent times whether it was returned or not.

You have been polite and easygoing outside of debate; same with Escape. I respect that. But in debate, I play by different rules. I leave my own easygoing, nice personality outside and I step into the ring with my serious, I'm-going-to-chew-your-argument-up persona on. You and I both enter the debating ring with three major weapons; conviction for our stance, our intellects, and our arguments. All three of those debating virtues have to be flawless, or the stance is subject to attack. This is the way of the debating jungle. As much as it would be nice if I could simply be pleasant and nice and respect everyone's opinion every single time, when I see a post so blatantly biased and lacking in proof:

He's the most powerful Sith in history and had way more in his arsenal than either of these two. What exactly will these two do to him?

... I simply have to bite into it. You have to admit how incredibly arrogant, biased, and impossibly flawed your initial post was. I mean, yes, you do have the conviction in Sidious (Perhaps more than you should. Even Escape thinks DE Sidious is in a tight spot with two DLotS attacking him) and I'm not about to attack your intellect because you're not stupid. But your argument is lacking the meat, and really in the end, that's where it's at. The idea that DE Sidious is so amazing that he can dust two Dark Lords of the Sith without breaking a sweat is clearly deluded with bias.

This is also an all out fight, not just a duel. If you want to put a good premise forth for these two, then do so. Again, my idea for an IM conversation between the three of us is till open, since that'll apparently work better.

I'll be quite honest- I'm not quite sure if you want to debate via IM but I'll confess it's my least favorite method of debating. I'd sooner scribe it on a bathroom wall and take a picture before I'd debate Star Wars via IM. Now if you just want to shoot the shit, by all means...

I hope I didn't come across as harsh, but I felt that was uncalled for.

No, actually you have every right to come back at me after my post. I have to admit I typed it sounding much ruder than I had intended. It was a hasty post and I was more than a bit tired at the time, and after reading your post well... I'll be honest, I expect much better from you. That kind of post strikes me as something a lesser debater would put forth.

Gideon:

I have to agree with Lightsnake, wholeheartedly, Janus. I have done my very best to be patient, understanding, and open-minded with you since your return to the forums -- whether you would like to accept that or not (I'm aware that at least one of your contemporaries on EoD applauded me for it). And yet you, someone who is smarter and older than me, can't summon the decency to return the favor? I'm terribly disappointed, and I expected better from you this time around, not to sound condescending.

I will be honest- my post came off sounding much more insulting than I had felt or intended. I suppose my reaction to LS' thoughts on the issue were hasty. And partly from my own frustration in arguing with you two in any topic involving Sidious. It gets drawn out into a lengthy and bitter battle that is never resolved, despite how much we all put forward. I simply wasn't ready for another merry-go-round with the both of you on whether or not Sidious is the best thing since the hyperdrive.

However, my above paragraph to LS stands; when it comes to debate, I am not going to roll over and play nice guy all the time. I won't badger you needlessly, and I won't vomit all over every thread in the forum trying to counter your opinions (Which is quite frankly, something I'm in the minority doing), but I reserve my right to attack your viewpoints and with all the jabs, rebuttals, and tools I possess. To do anything less would be insulting my own conviction in my own viewpoint, don't you agree?

You've seen lawyers argue, correct? Viciously ripping into witnesses, tearing each others' viewpoints apart, and basically skirting the edge of decency and politeness to get the point driven home.

Yet after the case? They all go and have coffee or drinks together, golf, talk about the kids, etc. They learn to divorce their debating selves from their normal selves. And this is a lesson you both would do well to learn. I'm not tearing into you guys because I'm a rotten person (Well, not somuch) or that I lack common decency; I'm doing it because it's game rules for debating. This is not some cloying college study hall debate, guys. No one in school cares enough about their cause to dedicate a fraction of the time we spend on things.

This is the culmination of our entire conflict; this statement is naked, vulnerable, and completely unsupported. We can debate it, if you like. I've stated -- on numerous occasions -- that Palpatine is far from invincible. I've said on many threads that he can and will be beaten by his hypothetical opponents. You, for some reason, do conveniently overlook them. In fact, several of these statements have been made on threads you have visited since your return. I've gone well out of my way to make people understand that Mace Windu's victory over Palpatine was not through devious manipulation but rather through Windu's superior skill and expertise with a blade. The blind fanboy that you paint me out to be wouldn't, Janus. Nor would he go out of his way to defend the Ancient Sith against SW LeGenD's tirade or argue relentlessly to the fools who believe Yoda was somehow bested by the Dark Lord through superior skill rather than a stalemate. If you want me to go through and link you to the threads in question to prove how wrong you are, say the word and I'll begin.

Actually, you've done a very good job so far as I've seen being more objective then you were when I first met you here, Escape, and I've seen you try and check even LS' bias before, for which I applaud you. I apologize if you somehow got caught in my general statement which really applies more to LS than it does to you. I think the point still remains that you are a very excitable Sidious supporter in a lot of cases, and the admiration you have for the character is seeping throughout your posts, whether you admit to it or not. I don't care one way or another, really. Sidious is a very good villain and one of the more likeable characters in the series. However, I've seen you get absolutely testy with me and exasperated because I wasn't recognizing Sidious' political machinations in a versus match.

Then you have not been paying attention. Tell me, and I'll go through and link/quote my arguments. Likewise, Janus, would you like me to go through and list your attempts to downplay and degrade Sidious and his achievements? I'm quite certain that I can find a vast multitude of such statements from you.

If by downplaying Sidious and his "achievements" you mean not buying into the grandiose light in which you and LS illuminate everything he does, then yes, I admit to it. If by somehow being unimpressed by Sidious' might and duelling capability by comparison makes me a bad person, then so be it. I've seen both of you yawn and downplay entire hordes of Sith Lords and ancient Jedi to the point that even people who initially agreed with your stance began to counter your viewpoints.

Now, I'm running into the character limit. My final words on this: I'll stop pointing out the bias when I stop seeing it. You can do as you list at this point, I'm not going to fall into a debating trap when it comes to Sidious, as I know well where we all stand.

I see.

It all boils down to opinion, I guess, Janus. But, sadly, I don't see this situation ever ending unless we come to some sort of agreement on it, which is what I believe Lightsnake had in mind involving instant messaging. Not so much a debate as it is a discussion. And while I can agree that debates work better here than on MSN or AIM, discussions work better on them than here. Near-instant elaborations, multiple questions can be asked and answered without requiring paragraph after paragraph. Questions can be specific. So can answers. In ways that this forum -- nor any other -- doesn't allow.

You've made it clear on where you stand, as have we. I'm not going to criticise cutthroat debating. I've done it before. But it's needless. A truly accomplished debater can get the job done with charisma rather than rants, insults, and jabs. It's harder to do, but, there are those who have made their points without it. I've referenced Publius to you. Publius is -- hands down, by far -- the most skilled debater I've ever encountered. And he does it without resorting to the attacks that we have all used. Does that make him any less of a debater? I hardly think so. It makes him the more skilled one, which is why I've had my little epiphany and try to argue in a more civilized style.

That said, whereas you're more ruthless in this aspect, I'm more tenacious in another. This problem about Sidious isn't going to end on my part. If you, or Faunus, or Illustrious, or whomever think that Sidious isn't the most powerful/best/what have you, and it disagrees with me, I'll only stop when you/they consent or when you/they can prove me wrong. A simple 30 minute conversation could help solve a lot of potential arguments and sources of frustration for all of us.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
[B]LS:

Let's be brutally honest with each other here, LS. As Escape's noted above, the number one problem we have with each other isn't our overall personalities or our levels of education or even that we share different views on different topics.

The number one problem we have with each other is that I don't recognize Sidious as the best Sith Lord in the entire history of Sithdom simply because you and Escape believe it to be so badly. I mean really, that's what it comes down to. Most if not all of our major battles consist of what

A. Anything negative said about Sidious that could possibly undermine his badassness.

I've argued it a LOT, Janus. And most times, you imply never respond to me after one or two initial posts, when the discussion is more than civil.

B. Anything postive said about ancient Sith who pose a threat to Sidious' lofty position in your own hierarchy of How Things Should Be.

C. Anything negative said about the PT era Jedi who are the bar by which we measure Sidious' accomplishments since if they are complete weaklings, by association he must be too. Ergo, they must be sabergods and Force gods so he can look better by comparison.

Now, back to the above quoted line, when I say what I said above, I'm speaking from my own experience. True, I have been gone for over a year now and have only recently come back. But the bottom line is that I haven't seen you claim that any of the above could beat Sidious in any incarnation. This is my own viewpoint based on my own findings. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. But quite frankly it's what I'm seeing, and have always seen since the two of you came to these forums.

You have been polite and easygoing outside of debate; same with Escape. I respect that. But in debate, I play by different rules. I leave my own easygoing, nice personality outside and I step into the ring with my serious, I'm-going-to-chew-your-argument-up persona on. You and I both enter the debating ring with three major weapons; conviction for our stance, our intellects, and our arguments. All three of those debating virtues have to be flawless, or the stance is subject to attack. This is the way of the debating jungle. As much as it would be nice if I could simply be pleasant and nice and respect everyone's opinion every single time, when I see a post so blatantly biased and lacking in proof:

... I simply have to bite into it. You have to admit how incredibly arrogant, biased, and impossibly flawed your initial post was. I mean, yes, you do have the conviction in Sidious (Perhaps more than you should. Even Escape thinks DE Sidious is in a tight spot with two DLotS attacking him) and I'm not about to attack your intellect because you're not stupid. But your argument is lacking the meat, and really in the end, that's where it's at. The idea that DE Sidious is so amazing that he can dust two Dark Lords of the Sith without breaking a sweat is clearly deluded with bias.

I'll be quite honest- I'm not quite sure if you want to debate via IM but I'll confess it's my least favorite method of debating. I'd sooner scribe it on a bathroom wall and take a picture before I'd debate Star Wars via IM. Now if you just want to shoot the shit, by all means...

No, actually you have every right to come back at me after my post. I have to admit I typed it sounding much ruder than I had intended. It was a hasty post and I was more than a bit tired at the time, and after reading your post well... I'll be honest, I expect much better from you. That kind of post strikes me as something a lesser debater would put forth.

Perhaps you're right in that I have tended to belittle the more Ancient characters more than a bit. If this is the case, I will work on it, but an issue is, KJA's writing makes them seem as nothing more than jokes. The reason I'm so much harder of them is because, simply, of how much support they get, and not just here on KMC from the old days, but many other places. After lots of double standards inherent in some arguments I've seen, a disregard for canon...

I'll admit the PT Jedi seem less impressive since unlike the Ancient figures you can actually see them on a scale. Compared to a comic where everything's open to your interpretation? Yes, I can see how the opinions form.
Now, to the matter of Palpatine, will political achievements help in a fight? No, I'll say that clearly.
However, by DE, you can't deny he's shown incredible amounts of power with showings unmatched by any other Sith, and in my argument with Faunus, I am backing other things up.

Will he be in trouble against two other of the most powerful Sith of all time? Yes. Will he lose? That's what's up in the air. Did I come off a bit poorly with the iniial post? Yes, I'll admit it, but you have to admit, you did the same, I do notice a great deal of underestimating characters who appears in the movies, Janus, and I can see how it originates. But really, when we get to points of casually writing off Yoda and Palpatine against Freedon Nadd, Naga or Exar without second thoughts, then you have to admit, you've displayed as much bias as me.

Two things I have to address to you uber debaters.
1. Why are you still calling Sadow a "powerful" sith lord? IF you're going to do that at the very least, quantify powerful. And if by powerful you mean hurling a brick at Kressh, then everyone's powerful.
2. I don't understand how you can argue that DE Sidious isn't the most powerful Sith in he SW Universe. You have various (you call them unsubstantiated) sources that do more than enough than put him over the top. Not to mention in DE, the ancient sith call him the greatest and the strongest of them all, so I don't see why there's this argument. I personally hate Sidious because of Lightsnake's adorable for him but LS and Escape have done more tha enough to prove Sidious' superiority, and this has yet to be disproven.

And escape, when I was arguing for the ancient sith, I was justifying their use of amulets and al that stuff, and I was referring to the POWERFUL ancient sith, not anybody after Ragnos' death.

What Sadow leaves behind intentionally, makes Exar Kun into the powerful Sith Lord he becomes. Sadow is also acknowledged as 'The Strongest of the Sith Lords' that currently live.

It's not enough to set him above greats of the future such as Revan, Bane, Dooku or Ruin on its own, but Sadow is powerful. Very much so.

I thought Darth Ruin was SS bullshit. Sure sounds like it.

Ruin was created by Abel G. Pena originally

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I can name quite a few examples, actually.
It hardly equates to 'godly'

Okay, if you can really name a few examples, please do so.

Off the top of my head: Yoda, Luke, Jacen, Mace and Corran-albeit many are the cream of the crop.

You need to provide actual examples of the deed, not list the characters who did it. Of course, that's not to say that they didn't, I just can't recall any specific instances.

He asked for the characters themselves, to be fair.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He asked for the characters themselves, to be fair.

Originally posted by darthsith19
If my memory serves me correctly, none of the Jedi or Sith in the [b]films ever toss objects at another while their dueling, Vader kinda does to Luke in ESB but Luke is greatly weaker than he is, so. [/B]

Off the top of my head: Yoda, Luke, Jacen, Mace and Corran-albeit many are the cream of the crop.

Mace: In the Clone Wars adventures series, I believe. Yoda, in the same series. Luke's done so at several points, one of which I believe against Brakiss...and if rumors tell correct, he and Jacen launch a storm worth of debris at one another in their duel in Inferno.

And considering Carnor Jax is capable of it in Crimson Empire, I wouldn't put stock in it as a great display of power. Anakin, too, if you count the hundreds of metal shards he sends hurling at Durge in their fight.

To bad neither Yoda or Mace ever get into a lightsaber duel in the Clone Wars, so that can't be true.

I said movie characters, so what Luke does in NJO doesn't matter.

Anakin vs. Durge wasn't a saber duel.

Last I checked, we were discussing this in the midst of a battle, period. Considering Yoda is able to summon enough power to bring an avalanche on top of a hailfire droid when he's engaging an entire army of battle droids? More impressive, no?

And Sadow vs. Kressh wasn't a saber duel, either.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Last I checked, we were discussing this in the midst of a battle, period. Considering Yoda is able to summon enough power to bring an avalanche on top of a hailfire droid when he's engaging an entire army of battle droids? More impressive, no?

And Sadow vs. Kressh wasn't a saber duel, either.

Yoda didn't. He dropped a piece of a cliff on a bunch of droids, but not while fighting others with his saber.

Correct, it wasn't a saber duel - instead of waving around weightless beams of energy, they were swinging huge swords that could have weighed as much as one hundred pounds. Using the Force while swinging those around is quite impressive.

I'm so sick and tired of this 'HUGE SWORDS' argument when I've never seen ANYONE, from Luke, to Satal Keto, to possessed Tavion, to anyone who handles those swords does so without any visible effort whatsoever. So, no, Darthsith, try a little harder when trying to find loopholes in thoroughly unimpressive feats. Again, Carnor Jax could do similar things, I don't doubt you'd claim he's subpar.

Yoda caused a massive avalanche, while fighting an entire army of advanced battle droids, and fighting a hailfire droid, dodging missiles and rapid blaster fire from all sides the entire time-and still manages to use the Force to drop half a mountainside on his enemies.

Why in the world do you guys keep adding Jacen in that equation? What exactly has he shown? This whole LOTF is very inconsistent.

Wrong, Yoda did those things but not while fighting with his saber, and it doesn't matter anyways, because this is a duel with sabers / sith swords, not with blasters.

When has Luke EVER fought with a sword?