Ashe vs Yuna

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
So Ashe can't go into an off-world and blast Yuna with heavenly lazesr beams and lightning explosion which would trigger an element based concurrence. What is this anyway? A sword fight, a popularity contest, or to see who can nuke who with canon evidence. I'm confuesd...again.

It really can't be the first since we don't know what Ashe can do.

It's mostly a popularity contest. With the absence of any valid data concerning Ashe, people are perfectly happy just picking whichever character they like more. Most of the fights I've seen consist of that. People ignore evidence in favor of whatever character they like better.

It's a little bit of cannon evidence, but not much. In the end, even if I do grant the quickening argument, and I don't, that still wouldn't be enough to prove one way or the other.

Originally posted by TacDavey
We've been over this before, GrieverSquall. If Lionheart is something Squall is capable of performing then he can fly. But Squall can't fly. Thus, Lionheart is nothing more than a cool animation thrown in without worrying about whether it was realistic or not. Games do it all the time. Especially turn based RPGs.

When? I don't remember talking about this before. It's the same if we talk about Blasting Zone, Squall doesn't throw a powerful beam to space, plus, Blasting Zone was modified in Dissidia, I know they are animations. The Summons attacks are also animations, the fact is that they can peform their abilities. We're off topic now, I agree is an animation but Squall isn't flying when he's performing Lion Heart, he's just standing on air while slashing his opponent, when the attack is over he falls, he's not flying at all. Final Fantasy characters stands on air a few moments when they are fighting, Gravity feats, that's something normal in the Final Fantasy universe, you said it by yourself, humans capable of performing these feats without being considered super-humans. You said it by yourself, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, why we should throw away the Quickenings? So anything not specifically stated in the game just doesn't exist, huh? There's a simple retort to that. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. QED.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
We're off topic now, I agree is an animation but Squall isn't flying when he's performing Lion Heart, he's just standing on air while slashing his opponent, when the attack is over he falls, he's not flying at all.

Okay, I'll rephrase that. Can Squall stand on air? I can think of some good points in the game for him to pull that trick off. He never does it outside of the Lionheart animation though. The reason is, of course, that he can't do it. Lionheart isn't an accurate representation of what Squall can do. He can't shoot enemies up into the air, leap up after them, stand on air while he shreds them, and land safely back on the ground. It's nothing more than a game mechanic, and so are quickenings.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Final Fantasy characters stands on air a few moments when they are fighting, Gravity feats, that's something normal in the Final Fantasy universe, you said it by yourself, humans capable of performing these feats without being considered super-humans.

Indeed, people in the FF world are capable of performing more than an average person. That still doesn't mean they can do ANYTHING. Flying, or standing on air, is an example. People can't do it outside of flashy attack animations, it's how the game works.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You said it by yourself, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, why we should throw away the Quickenings?

Because they are a game mechanic and we can see that outside of battle they hold no real meaning. Why doesn't Vaan summon tornadoes whenever he wants outside of Battle? Why didn't Balthier flood the place with his tidal wave attack? Because those animations where made only for the battle system. Balthier can't really summon tidal waves whenever he wants and Vaan can't whip up a tornado when he sees fit.

It's not absence of evidence. There IS absence of evidence. The very fact that they DON'T do it suggests that the quickenings are exactly what I said they were. Game mechanics.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Okay, I'll rephrase that. Can Squall stand on air? I can think of some good points in the game for him to pull that trick off. He never does it outside of the Lionheart animation though. The reason is, of course, that he can't do it. Lionheart isn't an accurate representation of what Squall can do. He can't shoot enemies up into the air, leap up after them, stand on air while he shreds them, and land safely back on the ground It's nothing more than a game mechanic, and so are quickenings. Indeed, people in the FF world are capable of performing more than an average person. That still doesn't mean they can do ANYTHING. Flying, or standing on air, is an example. People can't do it outside of flashy attack animations, it's how the game works. Because they are a game mechanic and we can see that outside of battle they hold no real meaning. Why doesn't Vaan summon tornadoes whenever he wants outside of Battle? Why didn't Balthier flood the place with his tidal wave attack? Because those animations where made only for the battle system. Balthier can't really summon tidal waves whenever he wants and Vaan can't whip up a tornado when he sees fit.

Those aren't game mechanics, those are animations of the attacks, I already said that this also happens in the Anime series. They may be exaggerated, the thing is, they can perform them. Why Squall wouldn't land on ground properly, what's the problem? Why he would slash an enemy on the air? I don't see anything illogical there, Squall can't jump?

I didn't say they can do anything. But those gravity feats are part of what is the Final Fantasy universe, don't blame me for that. Why Vaan would summon a Tornado in the middle of a town? Of course he would do it in battle. Quickenings aren't important in the story. How do you explain Leviathan's attack in each FF game? I know it's animation but, Leaviathan doesn't exist, then? What about Ifrit in FFVIII? he does exist, but he can't throw a Meteor to the enemies because it's animation...? Then how the hell he perform his attacks?

To give you a simple example. You can see special animations in games, RPGs, also in Anime, or other fictional series. I know they don't fit. A guy can perform an attack and can turn the world's background into a Fire realm like Vaan does, or Sephiroth destroying an entire Solar System, but that doesn't mean he is ACTUALLY DOING THAT. Vaan just throw two Fire-Balls to his opponents, that's all. Don't take the animations so seriously, they are just to turn cool the attacks. Squall can jump and slash an enemy on air, that's not illogical, Blasting Zone or My Final Heaven are illogical.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Those aren't game mechanics, those are animations of the attacks, I already said that this also happens in the Anime series. They may be exaggerated, the thing is, they can perform them.

Perform what? You just said the attacks were exaggerated. Can Squall float on air or not?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I don't see anything illogical there, Squall can't jump?

Squall can't leap miles into the air and then stay there while he swings his sword.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I didn't say they can do anything. But those gravity feats are part of what is the Final Fantasy universe, don't blame me for that. Why Vaan would summon a Tornado in the middle of a town? Of course he would do it in battle.

Outside of battle doesn't mean in a town. There are other places a tidal wave or tornado would have come in handy.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Quickenings aren't important in the story. How do you explain Leviathan's attack in each FF game? I know it's animation but, Leaviathan doesn't exist, then? What about Ifrit in FFVIII? he does exist, but he can't throw a Meteor to the enemies because it's animation...? Then how the hell he perform his attacks?

Not all animations are inaccurate. However, animations are low on the realistic priority line, if you get what I mean. In other words, when we see from evidence outside of battle that something is beyond what a character can do, and then he does it in an animation, we know to trust the story source before we trust the animation source.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
To give you a simple example. You can see special animations in games, RPGs, also in Anime, or other fictional series. I know they don't fit. A guy can perform an attack and can turn the world's background into a Fire realm like Vaan does, or Sephiroth destroying an entire Solar System, but that doesn't mean he is ACTUALLY DOING THAT.

That's my point exactly. Sometimes animations don't mimic what is realistic for the character. Games are not like real life, it's harder to tell what a character can do. It changes and doesn't always fit. Just like Dissidia. Squall couldn't originally do what he can in Dissidia. But they change it and don't explain why because its a game and they don't care.

In that sense, games have to be approached a little differently when you debate about them, because what someone can do in a battle doesn't necessarily have to fit with what they can do outside of battle. It's a game, some animations are placed in there just to look cool. So, when we want to debate about games, we have to prioritize our evidence, and battle animations are low on that list.

The trick is separating the battle system from the story. The battle system is mostly game mechanics.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Perform what? You just said the attacks were exaggerated. Can Squall float on air or not?

Squall can't leap miles into the air and then stay there while he swings his sword.

Outside of battle doesn't mean in a town. There are other places a tidal wave or tornado would have come in handy.

Squall can't float... I said he stands until the attack is over... that doesn't mean he's flying. Huh...? Miles into the air? Don't exaggerate... Squall can jump and slash enemies on air, simple as that.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Not all animations are inaccurate. However, animations are low on the realistic priority line, if you get what I mean. In other words, when we see from evidence outside of battle that something is beyond what a character can do, and then he does it in an animation, we know to trust the story source before we trust the animation source.

That happens when you mix the reality with simple animations... I could bring videos and a lot of stuff about that, Anime series or fictional ones, animations is what the name states, animations.

Look at this animation, giant robots performing that in the middle of the city or field I don't know. 'Power Ranger: Ninja Storm'

They CAN do it, but is an simple animation.

YouTube video

Maybe Yuna from X and Ashe from Revenant Wings should have been used for this fight. Ashe's quickenings are a mystery and Yuna's warrior dressphere has no canon evidence supporting it.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Squall can't float... I said he stands until the attack is over... that doesn't mean he's flying. Huh...? Miles into the air? Don't exaggerate... Squall can jump and slash enemies on air, simple as that.

Yes, he stands on air. Sounds a lot like floating if you ask me.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
That happens when you mix the reality with simple animations... I could bring videos and a lot of stuff about that, Anime series or fictional ones, animations is what the name states, animations.

Look at this animation, giant robots performing that in the middle of the city or field I don't know. 'Power Ranger: Ninja Storm'

They CAN do it, but is an simple animation.

YouTube video

What? Power Rangers and a turn based RPG are completely different things. For one thing, Power Rangers is fully live action, and on top of that it's a SHOW, not a game. A turn based RPG is completely different.

This explanation makes no sense. Either they can do what is being "animated", or they can't. Simple as that. They can't do it and not do it at the same time.

Squall can't leap miles into the air and then stay there while he swings his sword.

He can in Dissidia. awermm

Originally posted by Nephthys
He can in Dissidia. awermm

He says nothing of Squall's skills are an accurate representation, even when the developers didn't stated it. But I take it as an standpoint.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He can in Dissidia. awermm

I know. Dissidia isn't an accurate representation of the characters original abilities. They made this change in later games so that they could do more fancy battles, but Squall couldn't do that originally.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
He says nothing of Squall's skills are an accurate representation, even when the developers didn't stated it. But I take it as an standpoint.

Actually, the developers said they weren't worried about sticking to what was realistic. They don't care, they just wanted to make a fun action game and I have no problem with that, but I don't think it can really be used in these debates.

The Dissidia developers never stated such thing.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
The Dissidia developers never stated such thing.

No, AC developers did, and since Dissidia's fights are modeled to be like AC, it pretty much covers both.

Sorry, I don't take assumptions like those. If the Dissidia developers didn't stated what you're saying, then for me it doesn't count as fact.

Originally posted by TacDavey
What? Power Rangers and a turn based RPG are completely different things. For one thing, Power Rangers is fully live action, and on top of that it's a SHOW, not a game. A turn based RPG is completely different.This explanation makes no sense. Either they can do what is being "animated", or they can't. Simple as that. They can't do it and not do it at the same time.

Oh, I jumped this part, sorry.
Well, what I really meant is not to compare a game to a show, just their animations, when the animation sequence is set, it can be illogical or logical, you see, in power Rangers they summon giant waves in the city or the robots performs powerful attacks in the middle of towns and etc. if you take that as the reality then they, in each battle hundred of people would die. Sometimes the robots performs sword or beam attacks and the animation is simply exaggerated, but what you see in the animation doesn't mean it happens in the reality outside that animation, it means it's something to add cool effects, but the attack is performed, it doesn't mean in any way that the attacks don't exist. That's all. I don't know if you get my point though.

Another example:

YouTube video

As you can see in that animation, he doesn't turn the world a fire realm. It's just animation.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Sorry, I don't take assumptions like those. If the Dissidia developers didn't stated what you're saying, then for me it doesn't count as fact.

No, it follows logically. The fights in Dissidia were made to be like AC's fights. Ac's fights were not made to be realistic. Thus, Dissidia fights were not made to be realistic. It's not an assumption at all.

I'll reply to this post in the Cloud Vs. Squall topic if you don't mind.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I'll reply to this post in the Cloud Vs. Squall topic if you don't mind.

Indeed, where were we on Ashe vs. Yuna? As far as I can see, it pretty much follows the Vaan vs Tidus one.