Origin of Hobbits and Sauron's Powers?

Started by Exa2 pages

Hobbits came from the vales of Anduin and are obviously related to the Northmen of Rhovanion (ie. the inhabitants of Dale+Esgaroth, Mirkwood and also the ancestors of the Rohirrim who came from the North) (though some think they are also descendants of the Elves)... they are so small because they have always been a hidden and silent people (cf unfininished tales)(they are described as being able to walk so quiet that nobody could hear them approaching). They are first mentioned in the first millenium of the Third Age in the vales of Anduin, also in the south near the Gladden Fields - where the ring was lost. The Dúnedain are said to have first met the Hobbits in 1050 TA; they first gave the hobs their name "Halflings" (Periain) at that time (dunedain were a little taller at that time).

They moved to the Shire in TA 1600 I think which is also when they started their Shire Reckoning.

i think...that in foresight...iluvatar created the hobbits with the valar ignorant of the fact...he(ilu) knew the hearts of men and the unwillingness of the elves and the mandate placed upon the valar to not interfere in the affairs of men, esp in the third age...the hobbits had the qualities of both elves and men...e.g. the ears and the mortal life span...their size was due to the fact that the two elder races would think nothing or very little of them when it came to war with sauron...even sauron and saruman thought little of them...looked what happened to them...

no man or elf or dwarf for that matter could have stirred treebeard and ents to fight saruman...

a man and an elf in the end would have given up hope if they were burdened to take the ring to mt. doom...or used it for themselves...

a hobbit is an enigma that tolkien didn't explain much, but i think that that's what they are: Iluvatar took the qualities of all three races to make the hobbit...

but then again i could be wrong... 😛

opinions on hobbits of some are actually that they are elves that became mortal...or men who had longer lives.
although they did appear on middle earth shortly after the arrival of the istari leading to the belief of some that they were from valinor, which of course i do not believe, some of their qualities would make this seem reasonable, frodo and bilbos amazing resistance to the ring is one, but never was it stated in the silmarillion of their baing hobbits in valinor, in fact it only ever states that there is any other race there apart from vala maia and elves in one part of the book, when the men of numenor land to conquer, and of course are defeated and 'trapped' until the final battle aka the dagor dagorath

it also never states that the hobbits landed WITH the istari, as cirdans tale of events says only the istari landed.

so hobbits came from...who knows....tolkien does, but try asking a corpse a question.

i believe that the hobbits could be in some way connected to tom bombadil only a much lesser being than he
both small, both can resist the ring for a time although over tom the ring has no power over...both have a love for verse

well...as i have said nobody really knows

scratch that bilbo, frodo and sam are the only hobbits allowed into valinor
if hobbits were desended from elves then i believe they too would be allowed into valinor.

also sauron is not killed in the silmarillion, sauron is never killed in any written work by tolkien, he is a maia and while their physical body may indeed be destroyed, the maia spirit in them will survive and can take on another form.

The prologue of the LOTR gives the most information on Hobbit origins. These origins are lost in the mists of time, since Hobbits did not record them and Elves did not pay much attention to other races. At one point, Hobbit ancestors lived in the Vales of Anduin. Then numbers of them moved west.

Most interesting to me is that each branch of the Hobbits seems to have close ties to another race of Middle-earth, just like Feanor said. In the case of the Fallohides, they actually have some physical resemblance to the other races. The Harfoots, that came to be the dominant group of Hobbits, initially had much to do with Dwarves. They were browner and shorter. (I think Sam is Harfoot.) They moved westward earliest. Not surprisingly, with the Dwarf influence, they were the ones who came to live in tunnels and holes. The Stoors mixed more with Men; they came west later. They were the ones who liked boats, swimming, etc. since they lived by the river a long time. This was Smeagol's ancestry. The most intriguing to me were the Fallohides who were most like the Elves. They loved forests, were taller and slimmer, more adventurous, fairer of skin and hair, loved language and song, and in ancient times practiced hunting rather than agriculture.

The Fallohides provided many of the Hobbit leaders. Merry, Pippin, and Frodo all had Fallohide blood. I often wonder if some wandering Avari elf and some ancient Hobbit ancestor came together at least once to leave some special traits and genes for the Fallohides! We know Hobbit origin goes back before the Third Age.

No way to prove this. But it would go far towards explaining why Faramir can say that Frodo looks Elvish, and why Frodo is an Elf-friend and has visions of Elvenhome, or why Goldberry sees the light of an elf-lover in his eyes, or why he comments on his yearning for the sound of the Sea while in Rivendell. It would also place in context the last two lines of Galadriel's song to the departing Fellowship where she says "may you find Valinor". Tolkien explicitly says in The Road Goes Ever On that these two lines are addressed specifically to Frodo.

It could also be another reason for Sam's close emotional attachment to Frodo. Perhaps, like Faramir, he can sense some ancient throwback genes or traits. (You know how Sam likes Elves.)

Again, this is wild speculation. Maybe Frodo just likes Elves and Elvenhome, and there's no genetic component. That's certainly the case, for example, with Sam who has no Fallohide blood. And all the references to the Sea and the West could simply be preparing Frodo and us for the fact that he will have to go there for healing after the quest. But, then again, you never know...

For the nth time, I'm in no way saying that those I've posted are facts, they are just my wild speculations. 😉 😛

the hobbits are distant realatives of humans... Tolkien himself sugested that that was the most likley (I love the way the man never wanted to actually state annything wihtout a little doubt to mix it up).

but I really like Fëanor's theory...

Originally posted by shadowy_blue
At one point, Hobbit ancestors lived in the Vales of Anduin. Then numbers of them moved west.

while others moved west some did stay and fish the river...and it is interesting that many 'modern' day hobbits are afraid of water...😖

I often wonder if some wandering Avari elf and some ancient Hobbit ancestor came together at least once to leave some special traits and genes for the Fallohides!

😆...THAT thought has NEVER enterd my mind before...very interesting...

No way to prove this. But it would go far towards explaining why Faramir can say that Frodo looks Elvish, and why Frodo is an Elf-friend and has visions of Elvenhome, or why Goldberry sees the light of an elf-lover in his eyes, or why he comments on his yearning for the sound of the Sea while in Rivendell. It would also place in context the last two lines of Galadriel's song to the departing Fellowship where she says "may you find Valinor". Tolkien explicitly says in The Road Goes Ever On that these two lines are addressed specifically to Frodo.

now that i think of it the idea isn't that far fetched...😛...elves and hobbits have numerous similarities...
physical traits...(ears)
and some vague ''spiritual'' traits...like lovers of song ect...

although i think it is most prominent in Frodo...then any of the other hobbits..imho

But, then again, you never know...

yes...somethings tolkien didn't explain...and i think its done intentionally...so as to leave us thinking and wondering, for ourselves...🙂

Here's what the Encyclopedia of Arda says concerning the origins of Hobbits:

A mortal race almost certainly related to Men, though their origins are unknown. Their most distinguishing feature was their short stature; even the tallest Hobbits rarely exceeded four feet in height.

Originally a widespread people, hobbits were found in much of the north of Middle-earth and down the Vales of Anduin. As the Third Age passed, the Hobbits moved north and west, eventually founding the land of the Shire in III 1601.

The History of ‘Hobbit’

"On a blank leaf I scrawled: 'In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit.' I did not and do not know why."
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 163, to W.H. Auden, dated 1955

This is Tolkien's own account of his invention of the word 'hobbit', while marking School Certificate papers: he gives no date, but from the clues he gives, this most likely happened one summer in the late 1920's. This, then, is one of the most significant doodles in the history of literature: without it, there would have been no Hobbit, and without The Hobbit no Lord of the Rings, and without The Lord of the Rings, surely no Silmarillion. If not for those ten scrawled words, the world might never have heard of J.R.R. Tolkien.

On the face of it, the origins of 'hobbit' are easy to explain: a bored academic invents an amusing little word 'from nowhere' and jots it down. As the word became well known, though, debates began about its origins. Some doubt was even cast on whether Tolkien had invented the word himself. Probably of more importance to Tolkien himself, though, was the history of 'hobbit' within his universe, and we'll address this question first.

The Invented Etymology

Why do hobbits call themselves 'hobbits'? What is the history of the word within the world of Middle-earth? These are questions that most writers wouldn't even consider, but they gave Tolkien a problem. Most of his names for characters and places came from established languages, fictional or otherwise, and so they had a 'real' history in Tolkien's imagination that could be translated into his fictional world. 'Hobbit', though, had appeared spontaneously, and so had no history of its own. Tolkien needed to invent one.

In Middle-earth's past, the hobbits had dwelt in the northern reaches of the Vales of Anduin, and the language Tolkien used to represent that region was Old English, the tongue of the Anglo-Saxons. His task, then, was to find words from Old English that might transform over millennia into the form 'hobbit'.

The word hob (meaning 'sprite' or 'little man', as in hobgoblin) seems an obvious solution. It's a mark of Tolkien's attention to detail that he didn't use it - the word is far too young (less than a thousand years old) and was unknown to the Anglo-Saxons. Hence, the Northmen of Middle-earth wouldn't have known hob either.

The solution he chose was more sophisticated: he selected the Old English words hol byldan, or some similar variant, meaning 'to build a hole', and developed the fictional compound holbytla (plural holbytlan). It is easy to see how, over several thousand years, this could evolve into 'hobbit'.

The success and ingenuity of this solution, though, hide one inconvenient detail: 'hole-builder' is, at best, a highly unconventional use of English. One can no more 'build a hole' than one can 'dig a house'. It's noticeable that Tolkien's later works tend to interpret holbytla as 'hole-dweller' rather than 'hole-builder'. In particular, he submitted 'hole-dweller' to the Oxford English Dictionary (see The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 316). We don't know what happened next - perhaps some sharp-eyed Anglo-Saxon-speaking researcher intervened - but the modern Dictionary has reverted to the more strictly accurate 'hole-builder'.

Who Invented 'Hobbit'?

Almost as soon as The Hobbit was published, questions started to be asked about the real origins of the word. Of course, Tolkien's use of it was his own invention, but was he definitely the first to use the word? Perhaps it had already been invented by someone else? Perhaps Tolkien had come across it in childhood and forgotten the event, only to have the word reappear from his subconscious years later?

These questions seem to have originated with a letter written to The Observer newspaper, published on 16 January 1938 (see The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 25). The author, known only by the punning pseudonym of Habit, claimed that a friend remembered a fairy-tale called The Hobbit dating from about 1904. Other mentions of this tale (apparently about a rather ferocious creature) have surfaced since, with dates that vary around the turn of the twentieth century.

Was there a hobbit before Tolkien's? We just don't know. So far as we can establish, no-one has yet produced a copy of this 'proto-hobbit'. Tolkien himself, while not entirely dismissive of the idea, suggested that a similar-sounding title might have been misremembered in light of his own invented word. If an earlier hobbit ever did exist, a century has passed since it was published, so the chances of finding any proof are negligible (though if you should happen across a copy, please let us know!).

The last word on this topic came from the Oxford English Dictionary, when they decided to honour Tolkien by including 'hobbit' in their hallowed pages. For the etymology, they needed to establish definitively when the word was first used. Their conclusion effectively closes the matter:

"hobbit n. one of an imaginary race of half-sized persons in stories by Tolkien; hence ~RY (5) n. [invented by J.R.R. Tolkien, Engl. writer d. 1973, and said by him to mean 'hole-builder']"
The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English

(If you have any old books in your attic, though, it might be worth leafing through them!)

Of Hobs and Boggarts

Throughout northern Europe, there exists a prevailing tradition of 'Little People'. They have an endless list of names: brownies, pixies, fays, leprechauns are just some of the more common. In some regions, these beings are far more than just myths or folklore: even today, they have an effect on people's everyday lives.

Take, for example, the Isle of Man in the middle of the Irish Sea: an island with a severe fairy infestation. In the southern parts of the island is the 'Fairy Bridge', a bridge that no Manxman would cross without greeting the Little People that live there. To most, of course, this is just superstition, but there are those who literally believe that they share their island with all manner of fairy creatures. Among these is a being known as a phynnodderee; shy of humans, friendly and happy-go-lucky, hairy-legged, fond of wine and beer and given to farm-work. Sound familiar?

The Manx aren't alone, of course: from Germany, where miners are helped by friendly burrowing 'kobolds', all the way to Iceland, whose Elves occupy a ghostly realm curiously similar to Tolkien's 'wraith-world', there are similar traditions.

What's more, even their names are familiar: we've already mentioned hob, but boggart, boggard, flibbertigibbet and even Hobberdy, Hobbidy and Hobberdy Dick (these last three are listed by Tolkien himself; The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 319, dated 1971).

Perhaps surprisingly, Tolkien denies that he was influenced by this in choosing the name 'hobbit', but he seems to have embraced the tradition by the time he wrote the Foreword to The Lord of the Rings. There, he says that hobbits are 'more numerous formerly than they are today', and that they 'avoid us with dismay and are becoming hard to find'. We can only realistically see this as an attempt to marry his fictional people with the 'hobbits' of folklore and tradition.

Addendum
Since this article was written, we've discovered that the name 'hobbit' goes back far further than even Tolkien suspected. We're indebted to Mark Blanton for sending along a long list of magical beings collected by a certain Michael Aislabie Denham before the year 1895. In the middle of this list, among the 'boggleboes', 'freiths' and 'wirrikows' lies the term 'hobbits'.

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A story that started with an idle note on a blank piece of paper has, in the end, taken us back through thousands of years of myth and language. This is one of the great joys of Tolkien - his work has an almost 'fractal' quality. The more you examine a single detail, the more it unravels into an epic mesh of connections and complexity. The last word on this matter is best left to the master himself:

"Oh what a tangled web they weave who try a new word to conceive!"
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 319, dated 1971

maybe a hobbit is simply a hobbit
nothing else
always was a hobbit
always will be a hobbit

not evolved from anything