Where are people getting this from?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
There was a person called Galzier who turned people into glass (I'm sure someone will claim that such a feat was done without matter manip) who was apparently unable to transmute Hulk.

As for the fight . . . I just read through SilentWar 😐

You mean the woman who made one appearence in Hulk 262 I think it was from 1981?

Talk about your obscure characters! she was only able to transform people (and her dog and the floor and herself eventually) during a full moon and her hands were made of Glass.

I'm not sure if it was pure matter manipulation as she could only do it during a full moon and had to ask Bruce to come back when she could turn him into glass (under the pretense that she was merely going to copy his image in Glass).

It may have been the result of a curse or an enchantment?

Still She wasn't in Black Bolts or even Grey Gargoyles league...

Originally posted by Soljer
Being bonded to something and ripping apart is not the same as withstanding having you atoms actually reconfigure and change from carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen into...say...Iron.

When Grey Gargoyle truned Hulk (Grey Hulk) to stone his healing factor had him back to normal again within moments.

Originally posted by Hercules
You mean the woman who made one appearence in Hulk 262 I think it was from 1981?

Talk about your obscure characters! she was only able to transform people (and her dog and the floor and herself eventually) during a full moon and her hands were made of Glass.

I'm not sure if it was pure matter manipulation as she could only do it during a full moon and had to ask Bruce to come back when she could turn him into glass (under the pretense that she was merely going to copy his image in Glass).

It may have been the result of a curse or an enchantment?

Still She wasn't in Black Bolts or even Grey Gargoyles league...

That would be the one. Transmutation is transmutation though 😬

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That would be the one. Transmutation is transmutation though 😬

It is but I suspect there are degrees of ability, seeing as Grey Gargoyle did manage to turn Hulk to stone if only for a moment.

Pure matter manipulation, should enable the weidler to transmute the victim into anthing they want to imo.

Glazier had never tried to transmute a superhuman before, only normal men, so her powers could have been very weak as well as limited (only able to do it on a full moon).

To say that hulk resisted her so he could resist Black Bolt is a stretch to say the least.

Black Bolt is class 100 when he wants to be. He has gone toe to toe with Thing and beaten him down, same with Hulk.

Originally posted by Hercules
It is but I suspect there are degrees of ability, seeing as Grey Gargoyle did manage to turn Hulk to stone if only for a moment.

Pure matter manipulation, should enable the weidler to transmute the victim into anthing they want to imo.

Glazier had never tried to transmute a superhuman before, only normal men, so her powers could have been very weak as well as limited (only able to do it on a full moon).

To say that hulk resisted her so he could resist Black Bolt is a stretch to say the least.

It wouldnt be a stretch though to say he resisted GG and therefore could resist BB because that was a weak version of the Hulk. It could be argued logically that an upgraded Hulk could resist something more complicated and powerful.

Anyway im pretty sure you are arguing against Glazier being used as evidence not GG. I just thought I would add that bit.

Originally posted by Alfheim
It wouldnt be a stretch though to say he resisted GG and therefore could resist BB because that was a weak version of the Hulk. It could be argued logically that an upgraded Hulk could resist something more complicated and powerful.

Anyway im pretty sure you are arguing against Glazier being used as evidence not GG. I just thought I would add that bit.

Alf, what was that you said about being taken out of context?

I was using Grey Gargoyle, only as an example of how matter manipulators seem to have varing power levels...

Hulk has proven time and again that he can 'power out' of matter manipulation.

turn him to stone, he breaks out of it. shrink him, same deal...

BB maybe a different league of matter manipulator but, the results should be the same. unless someone can present an argument otherwise (an argument rather than invective).

Originally posted by Hercules
Alf, what was that you said about being taken out of context?

Yeah I also said im not perfect that doesnt mean that other people dont do it either. At least I admit when I do it and dont accuse other people of backtracking.

Originally posted by Hercules

I was using Grey Gargoyle, only as an example of how matter manipulators seem to have varing power levels...

Right ok.......I didnt say you werent....but I got the impression you were implying that GG was a more legiitimate feat because he had tried it on the Hulk , while Glazier had only tried it on superhumans. I was also adding my 2cents.

Originally posted by janus77
Hulk has proven time and again that he can 'power out' of matter manipulation.

turn him to stone, he breaks out of it. shrink him, same deal...

BB maybe a different league of matter manipulator but, the results should be the same. unless someone can present an argument otherwise (an argument rather than invective).

Well I was pointing out that the Gazier feat isn't the best evidence to present as Hulk being able to resist BB's manipulation.

Problem is, the conclusion of the fight between BlackBolt and Hulk took place off panel, for all we know he could have tried to turn Hulk to stone and Hulk could of resisted it.

Then again he may not have attempted it...shrug

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah I also said im not perfect that doesnt mean that other people dont do it either. At least I admit when I do it and dont accuse other people of backtracking.

Who was backtracking, my intial post said.

Originally posted by Hercules
It is but I suspect there are degrees of ability, seeing as Grey Gargoyle did manage to turn Hulk to stone if only for a moment.

I thought that was quite clearly stating that the GG seems to be better at it than Glazier?

EDIT: sorry missed your edit, no, I was saying that Glazier had never attempted to transmute a superhuman like Hulk before, she had only ever done it on normal men. So her powers were never shown to be any great shakes.

the thing is that arguments are generally presented ass-backwards, when it comes to characters that people don't like.

instead of trying to conceive of a reason for suggesting a form of attack might work, it's "well, prove that he can withstand x!"... thereby reducing the whole thing to meaninglessness as, usually these stipulations have no answer - because the character's never been in the +exact+ situation as the hypothetical versus match in which he's placed.

Hulk has shown the ability to return to his proper form irrespective of matter manipulation or magic.
as everything Hulk related depends upon his level of anger/stress, his durability and resistance at present should be exponentially higher than in the past.

him beating the snot out of BB wasn't much of a feat, whether or not he was attacked with matter manipulation. I'm waiting for the Zom thing. seriously hope the whole event takes place on the astral plane or something...

Originally posted by Hercules
Who was backtracking, my intial post said.

...sorry im not sure exactly what your refering to here. Sorry are you asking me who was backtracking your post? Sorry you lost me......

Originally posted by Hercules

I thought that was quite clearly stating the GG seems to be better at it than Glazier?

Right.....I didnt say you werent......in fact im pretty sure you were saying that. What did you think that I thought you were saying GG was a bad example as well?

This is what I thought you said. We cant use Glazier as a piece of evidence to say that Hulk can resist matter transmutation you seemed to imply that GG was much better....I then added my 2cents I said that an upgraded Hulk could take something even more extreme. I wasnt disagreeing with anything you said I was just adding an extra point.

Originally posted by janus77
the thing is that arguments are generally presented ass-backwards, when it comes to characters that people don't like.

instead of trying to conceive of a reason for suggesting a form of attack might work, it's "well, prove that he can withstand x!"... thereby reducing the whole thing to meaninglessness as, usually these stipulations have no answer - because the character's never been in the +exact+ situation as the hypothetical versus match in which he's placed.

Hulk has shown the ability to return to his proper form irrespective of matter manipulation or magic.
as everything Hulk related depends upon his level of anger/stress, his durability and resistance at present should be exponentially higher than in the past.

him beating the snot out of BB wasn't much of a feat, whether or not he was attacked with matter manipulation. I'm waiting for the Zom thing. seriously hope the whole event takes place on the astral plane or something...

I actually do like the Hulk, how do you think I know stuff like issue numbers and even years?

I have no problem with Hulk being shown resisting BB's matter manipulation but I also enjoy playing devils advocate, I like a debate to go beyond "Hulk wins cause he is strong!" which is for certain "fans" the begining and end of their evidence.

I don't even have a problem with Hulk stopping Juggernaut but if something isn't 100% conclusive to me then I will question it and see what people come back with.

Debating is fun for me, I don't stress it and I enjoy the banter.

Originally posted by Alfheim
...sorry im not sure exactly what your refering to here. Sorry are you asking me who was backtracking your post? Sorry you lost me......

Right.....I didnt say you werent......in fact im pretty sure you were saying that. What did you think that I thought you were saying GG was a bad example as well?

This is what I thought you said. We cant use Glazier as a piece of evidence to say that Hulk can resist matter transmutation you seemed to imply that GG was much better....I then added my 2cents I said that an upgraded Hulk could take something even more extreme. I wasnt disagreeing with anything you said I was just adding an extra point.

My mistake, I thought you were saying I was back tracking, I saw your edit after I posted.

Fair enough, Grey Gargoyle imo is a better manipulator than Glazier based on feats as other than transmuting some men, a dog and her floor to glass, she really has none.

Originally posted by Hercules
My mistake, I thought you were saying I was back tracking, I saw your edit after I posted.

Oh no no. I just got the impression you saw me b*ching at somebody in another thread about taking my **** out of context. All I was saying was yeah sometimes I do it but when it actually does happen I dont say **** like "Im not taking things out of context your just changing your argument because its crap."

Originally posted by Hercules

Fair enough, Grey Gargoyle imo is a better manipulator than Glazier based on feats as other than transmuting some men, a dog and her floor to glass, she really has none.

Sure.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Oh no no. I just got the impression you saw me b*ching at somebody in another thread about taking my **** out of context. All I was saying was yeah sometimes I do it but when it actually does happen I dont say **** like "Im not taking things out of context your just changing your argument because its crap."

Sure.

Nah, I didn't think you were b!tching in the other threads, just thought that you had taken me out of context, my post probably wasn't the best way to point that out though. 😄

Originally posted by Hercules
Nah, I didn't think you were b!tching in the other threads, just thought that you had taken me out of context, my post probably wasn't the best way to point that out though. 😄

No worries. 😄

Originally posted by Hercules
I actually do like the Hulk, how do you think I know stuff like issue numbers and even years?

I have no problem with Hulk being shown resisting BB's matter manipulation but I also enjoy playing devils advocate, I like a debate to go beyond "Hulk wins cause he is strong!" which is for certain "fans" the begining and end of their evidence.

I don't even have a problem with Hulk stopping Juggernaut but if something isn't 100% conclusive to me then I will question it and see what people come back with.

Debating is fun for me, I don't stress it and I enjoy the banter.

as to the "Hulk wins cause he is strong" ... essentially that's true. he is ridiculously - godly - strong. and all his attendant attributes are powered by that, so same goes for durability, regeneration etc etc ...

Superman wins because he's superman
flash because he speedblitzes ...

it's when an interesting versus thread is created, that arguments can evolve to demonstrate creative application of established powers, comparative debating abilities and superior comic knowledge.

Hulk v BlackBolt could be one of those situations (for Black Bolt) if people weren't stuck in a rut with "matter manipulation" when that's been shown to fail with weaker Hulks ... to which the comeback is, "they weren't as powerful as Black Bolt" ... which really isn't saying much as Hulk wasn't as powerful as he presently is... see goes nowhere. if anything it's in Hulk's favour as he's demonstrated resistance/recovery from such forms of attack at a level, whereas we've not seen BB do that to anyone as powerful as Hulk.

Hulk has been put down by BB before. Classic Hulk loses.