Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
[b]Regarding Jacen vs Onimi:Jacen defeated Onimi and it is indeed an amazing accomplishment. But you have to keep in mind 3 points here:
1) Onimi is not a Force User. He could not use the Force offensively on Jacen.
2) Jacen had "Wong Sense" ability, which was an added bonus for him.
3) Then Jacen could use the Force to vastly amplify his strength, speed and effectiveness during combat against Onimi and he indeed did so.
[/B]
Omni was a force user so he too can increase his strength,speed,etc. too
Regarding Revan vs Malak on the Star Forge:Like Revan, Malak was also among the exceptional warriors of his age.
Just like Revan, he too could use the Force offensively on his opponents at will and through the Force he could also amplify his strength, speed and effectiveness in combat.
As can Jacen as you have stated.
.
"Though only a young man, his skill in battle and prowess with the lightsaber had already earned him renown within the Order." (Narration from official KOTOR website)
And Jacen was able to badly injure Luke, who has defeated DE Sidious in lightsaber combat.
Then this battle was taking place on the Star Forge, which was filled with strong dark side presence of the Force. This would also further boost the power of an already very powerful Sith Lord.Then further add to this the Malak’s preparations that would give him noticeable advantage in the fight. "The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs.” (Star Wars databank)
So this fight was not at all on equal terms. Malak had made himself “nearly unstoppable” through the Star Forge and still Revan prevailed.
Now decide that who was better.
For like the millionth time I and most of us here know the details of the fight on the star forge. And we know that Revan is among the strongest ever. But there are quite a few others that can beat him . And Jacen is one of them no matter how much you let your kotor fanboyism get in the way.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Lets get one thing straight. Jacen wasn't able to badly injure Luke. Luke saw how him killing Jacen would turn Ben to the darkside so he was hesitating. DE Sidious is superior to Jacen in the force and saber combat.
Jacen did badly injure Luke. Broken ribs, two black eyes, a broken jaw/nose (IIRC), and a dislocated knee.
Originally posted by Darth Hord
Omni was a force user so he too can increase his strength,speed,etc. too
But as I have stated before, prove to me that he could use lethal Sith techniques in combat that only a powerful DLOTS would demonstrate.
Originally posted by Darth Hord
As can Jacen as you have stated.
Originally posted by Darth Hord
And Jacen was able to badly injure Luke, who has defeated DE Sidious in lightsaber combat.
DE Sidious is still more powerful then Darth Caedus. He is the strongest Sith Lord in history. Leia was using her BM ability to help Luke in his fight against Sidious. Her BM effectively caused Sidious's Force Storm to fail to materialize during combat.
And if a canonical fight between Revan and Luke takes place, it won't be WTFpwnage for Revan. I won't be surprised if Luke gets injured in that fight. Though he still would win.
Revan has shown no less combat prowess then Caedus and he is smarter then Caedus. Also do keep in mind his performance in the battle of the Star Forge.
Originally posted by Darth Hord
For like the millionth time I and most of us here know the details of the fight on the star forge. And we know that Revan is among the strongest ever. But there are quite a few others that can beat him . And Jacen is one of them no matter how much you let your kotor fanboyism get in the way.
Did I said that Revan could not be defeated? NEVER
And prove to me that Jacen (in his current state) is better then Revan. Just because he managed to injure Luke, it does not means that others cannot do so. Luke is not invincible. Though Jacen's saber combat skills are indeed exceptional.
In pure saber combat, he might beat Revan.
Though I would like to know more about Revan's skill in saber combat too before making a more fair judgment. Still we should keep in mind that Revan was also a skilled duelist and hava indeed defeated an another skilled duelist of his age in Light Saber combat (as evident from Duron's vision in Shadows & Light). Thus he would most probably put up a good fight against Jacen even in pure saber combat.
But do not forget that the outcome of fights are not just dependent on power factor. Several other factors play their parts too.
And I would be waiting for the last LOTF Novel aka "Invincible" to arrive and see that how far Jacen would reach in terms of power before making a final judgment. When Jacen will start to perform feats that would match that of Sidious, then I would surely acknowledge that he had surpassed Revan.
Originally posted by Gideon
Jacen did badly injure Luke. Broken ribs, two black eyes, a broken jaw/nose (IIRC), and a dislocated knee.
I know that I've read Inferno. I also know that Luke got distracted by Ben knowing that if he killed Jacen, he'd turn to the darkside. I don't see how this puts Jacen on par with DE Sidious in saber combat.
Originally posted by Gideon
You're entitled to question me whenever you please. As for your answer, in the RotS novelization, Yoda is called "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known" by the omniscient narrator.
I was actually expecting something other than that. I already know of that statement. And it has been a source of constant confusion between me and my mates when discussing Yoda's power ranking in the Star War-verse. While it was indeed stated that he was "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known", Yoda's showings and that of others don't quite support that statement, bordering on contradiction, really.
But no. I wont discuss it here with you. I just came on this thread in the hopes of reading something important. I'm not gonna be responsible for yet another thread going off-topic like a lot threads do recently. I'll bring this up later in an appropriate time.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
But as I have stated before, prove to me that he could use lethal Sith techniques in combat that only a powerful DLOTS would demonstrate.
You are talking about Jacen here and not Omni right. Well in any case jacen has demonstrated force lightning,mind wiping taking technique,force choke, to name a few and he can sever someone's force connection by touching them, as he did with Ben on the Anakin Solo. Which can pretty scary if he could do that in battle.
You know what? This primitive A > B > C logic is already getting old.DE Sidious is still more powerful then Darth Caedus. He is the strongest Sith Lord in history. Leia was using her BM ability to help Luke in his fight against Sidious. Her BM effectively caused Sidious's Force Storm to fail to materialize during combat.
I wasn't trying get at that Caedus is better that Sidious (and i apologized if it seems that way) I was trying to get that Luke has been in duels against the best of them in saber combat and emerged the victor and Jacen was able to contend with him in a very brutal duel.
For like billionth time, you still don't give enough credit to Revan even when you claim to know the details of his performance on the Star Forge. Your LOTF fanboyism gets in your way actually.
Actually Revan IS my favorite character as I had said in previous threads on this site. I just don't try and overhype a few of revan's feats which you seems to have done. Nor do I cram people with info about him when I know he is beat.
In pure saber combat, he might beat Revan.
Agreed and I also want to know more about his saber skills but until then there are people that will be put above him if they are close to him in the force and have demonstrated great saber skills.
But do not forget that the outcome of fights are not just dependent on power factor. Several other factors play their parts to
I am fully aware of that and it has happened a quite a few times in the movies. But here if it is a simple one on one fight then you know as well as i do that we have to go with the character who is more powerful because these duels will probably never occur in a book or anything.
Originally posted by darth gezorko
luke wins??? i dont think so ,dont any1 saw how strong revan was when he was the Dark Lord???
Revan has better force powers iam pretty sure of that
dueling skills Luke loses totally
when luke is grand master he is like 50 years old
and revan much younger like..... well i dunno but Revan will win.
I take it back legend at least you don't say stuff like this. We are aware how strong Revan is as SW Legend has posted in here the details of his duel on the Star Forge. Revan is not better that LUke in any category period. And so what if he is 50? Dooku was latter in age and manage to beat kenobi and anakin in ATOC. Sidious was like 60 in Revenge of the Sith and he took out 3 of the most powerful jedi of the era in seconds.
And as far as broken ribs are concerned it sucks and is very painful. I know because I broke 2 ribs in a car accident 2 years ago and it does restrict your movements. And for Luke to duel still with great efficency speaks greatly for his endurance.
Originally posted by -Blasmaster-Actually it does, Yoda lifting part of a mountain with the force and GL's statement which is a higher level of canon stating that to compete with sidious you have to be on the level of yoda or mace which implies that yodas strength in the force rivals that of sidious whom is already above all other sith lords as several sources stated: TNEC
While it was indeed stated that he was "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known", Yoda's showings and that of others don't quite support that statement,
And the statement of the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known is canon, you cant argue against that.
Originally posted by Darth Hord
You are talking about Jacen here and not Omni right. Well in any case jacen has demonstrated force lightning,mind wiping taking technique,force choke, to name a few and he can sever someone's force connection by touching them, as he did with Ben on the Anakin Solo. Which can pretty scary if he could do that in battle.
Onimi have not demonstrated Force Mastery on the level of a Sith Lord.
Originally posted by Darth Hord
I wasn't trying get at that Caedus is better that Sidious (and i apologized if it seems that way) I was trying to get that Luke has been in duels against the best of them in saber combat and emerged the victor and Jacen was able to contend with him in a very brutal duel.
Originally posted by Darth Hord
Actually Revan IS my favorite character as I had said in previous threads on this site. I just don't try and overhype a few of revan's feats which you seems to have done. Nor do I cram people with info about him when I know he is beat.
Originally posted by Darth Hord
I am fully aware of that and it has happened a quite a few times in the movies. But here if it is a simple one on one fight then you know as well as i do that we have to go with the character who is more powerful because these duels will probably never occur in a book or anything.
1) Mara Jade Skywalker vs Darth Caedus (Sacrifice)
2) Jedi Exile and her companions vs Darth Nihilus (KOTOR II)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I was talking about Onimi here and not Jacen.Onimi have not demonstrated Force Mastery on the level of a Sith Lord.
No but when you combine his force abilities with his vong strength and he can make deadly toxins throughout his body like his fingernails,teeth and blood. So if he were to scratch you poison so that becomes very deadly in a duel especially in close range.(particular in lightsaber duels)
That was a note-worthy effort from Jacen and hence I acknowledge that Jacen has exceptional dueling skills. Though in case of the Force Mastery, Luke is still ahead of him.
Agreed seeing as how he force pinned Caedus to his chair.
I have not overhyped any of Revan's feats in this thread. What he did on the Star Forge is really amazing.
No one said it wasn't but there are others who could do the same in Revan's place. But that still doesn't change the fact Luke will still comfortably beat him. And you have made statements that seem to be you overhyping a characters ability. Like in the HK and Grievous for example.
It has happened in some EU fights as well.
Yes but in vs. threads we have to go by who is the strongest.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I know that I've read Inferno. I also know that Luke got distracted by Ben knowing that if he killed Jacen, he'd turn to the darkside. I don't see how this puts Jacen on par with DE Sidious in saber combat.
Originally posted by Darth Hord
No one said it wasn't but there are others who could do the same in Revan's place.
Originally posted by Darth Hord
But that still doesn't change the fact Luke will still comfortably beat him.
Revan knows some deadly techniques that even Sith Lords would think twice before trying and he could indeed use some of those techniques in combat situations. Now don't blame me for this information. Blame POD for it.
Originally posted by Darth Hord
And you have made statements that seem to be you overhyping a characters ability. Like in the HK and Grievous for example.
Originally posted by Darth Hord
Yes but in vs. threads we have to go by who is the strongest.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
.It will not be WTFpwnage or an easy challenge.Revan knows some deadly techniques that even Sith Lords would think twice before trying and he could indeed use some of those techniques in combat situations. Now don't blame me for this information. Blame POD for it.
It probably wont be easy but by comfortably I mean that he will be a somewhat tired later on and not badly injured.
What I mentioned in that thread is canon information. It was mean't to show that HK-47 was no joke either. Though Grievous was still better.Fair enough but you never responded to us again so we assumed you meant HK could take him
Not always the smartest thing to do.
So if the duel is one vs. one and there on a neutral setting (like on plains or a field for example) and no one else is around. We have to assume that most powerful win because you can't like this character will become arrogant on the verge of victory and will lose at the last second. That argument would get destroyed. Intelligence might come into play but it is usually not the deciding factor in a duel.