Caedus vs Palpatine (Dark Empire)

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
Sure he can hide in the force, but can you give me evidence he does this constantly in battle?

Thats like asking "Oh would palpatine loop himself out of the force if he fights nihilus?"

Is palpatine using that technique in jacens case even a necessity? He has unlimited techniques which can suprise jacen and along that his superior strength in the force. Name me a few feats which indicates jacen > sidious other than words coming from inconsistent authors who fail to acknowledge lucas statements thus going against canon

The thing is theres enough evidence to put palpatine stronger in the force than jacen along with feats he had performed.

LOTF is super inconsistent and alot of its crap like "jacen will surpass luke when he becomes a dark lord" is all ambiguous because it contradicts so many things. Caedus existence already contradicts the statements of george lucas

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns

And Jacen using pain to help him came from his time with the Vong.

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns

If this is a fight then I think Caedus could win this.

Before you ramble "Oh shits caedus can cut him off the force with no effort at all!"

What makes you think sidious cant do the same? Seeing that he mastered every aspect of the force maximizing each and every technique.

Caedus is no where on the level of sidious or luke in the force. As for a saber duel id agree it would be close

It never stated that Caedus will become more powerful than Luke, because GL would shit a brick. It was Jacen's own thought that he would become more powerful than Luke.

I thought that was stated by the omniscient narrator in bloodlines?

Guys, Luke was going all-out against Jacen, and the book says that he was prepared to kill him. It was only after Ben escaped and prepared to kill a gravely injured Jacen that Luke realized that killing him in anger would mean turning to the dark side. Before that, Luke was going all-out.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Guys, Luke was going all-out against Jacen,

Luke will own him in a force fight and so would sidious

Originally posted by Gideon
Certainly.

The premise is that Jacen has captured Ben Skywalker on board his flagship, and is torturing him via a Yuuzhan Vong device called the 'Embrace of Pain'. Luke -- who has had a major falling out with Jacen by this point -- fakes his death in the ensuing space battle outside. He sneaks into Jacen's flagship and immediately attempts to kill him. Jacen narrowly avoids getting struck down and they duel; the fight is [B]very aggressive and very violent (it's not just your regular 'swing the saber' fight, it easily outclasses anything in the movies and most of the duels in the EU). They are said to swing their sabers faster than the eye can see. Jacen is on the losing end; Luke ends up delivering a palm-sized hole through Jacen's skull, he's stabbed in the abdomen, and is literally getting the shit kicked out of him. But to Jacen's credit, he takes advantage of Luke's recklessness to dislocate his knee and -- later will inflict two black eyes and numerous bruises -- but he's losing. He eventually gets the upper hand and begins to choke Luke with some poisoned-Vong vine. Luke manages to break out of it and is about to continue the fight when Ben releases himself from the Embrace of Pain and hurls a vibrodagger into Jacen's back.

Jacen later says that Ben doing this actually saved his life; it snapped Luke out of his 'kill-mode' and they allow Jacen to escape.

Edit:

Earlier in the novelization, Luke confronts Jacen about the death of Cal Omas (who was inadvertantly killed by Ben, who was 'sent' by Jacen to Omas under the deception that Omas arranged for Mara's death). Luke threatens to withdraw Jedi support from the Alliance and demands that Jacen admit the truth to Luke; Jacen denies that he had anything to do with Omas's death.

So Luke yanks him -- and his command chair -- into the air and keeps him suspended without any effort. Jacen, despite trying all his might, can't break out.

Luke says that the Jedi will not support Jacen, and Jacen implies that he will exact vengeance on Jedi younglings (who are being monitored by GAG troops). Luke essentially dares Jacen to make the threat, saying: "You really don't want to see me angry. And I think you're smart enough to know it."

Jacen laments that "the only thing standing between him and a quick death was Luke Skywalker's much-strained sense of decency." [/B]

Originally posted by Manslayer
Does jacen do this constantly? So what if he does? Its not like palpatine cant see him physically .

And why wouldnt palpatine use it against a dangerous opponent?

Thats like asking "Oh would palpatine loop himself out of the force if he fights nihilus?"

Is palpatine using that technique in jacens case even a necessity? He has unlimited techniques which can suprise jacen and along that his superior strength in the force. Name me a few feats which indicates jacen > sidious other than words coming from inconsistent authors who fail to acknowledge lucas statements thus going against canon

The thing is theres enough evidence to put palpatine stronger in the force than jacen along with feats he had performed.

So?

You claim caedus will win yet you fail to say why or how

Sidious' lightning won't be effective against him because any pain will only make him stronger. And Caedus hiding in the force will mean Sidious' precognition will be hindered.

Before you ramble "Oh shits caedus can cut him off the force with no effort at all!"

What makes you think sidious cant do the same? Seeing that he mastered every aspect of the force maximizing each and every technique.

Caedus is no where on the level of sidious or luke in the force. As for a saber duel id agree it would be close

Luke will own him in a force fight and so would sidious

And note that jacen was getting his ass kicked very badly by luke despite luke going all out with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
Yes, Caedus hiding in the force will mean Sidious' precognition will be hindered. Let me explain. Jacen's lightsaber is moving [B]faster than the eye can see. Meaning Palpatine will rely even more on the force to predict Jacen's moves. Only he won't be able to sense what Caedus is doing, or about to do.

DE Luke was a dangerous opponent was he not? Why didn't Sidious use every obscure force technique he knew against him?

Nihilus fighting Sidious is a completely different situation. Sidious would surely sense he was going to drain him, and then he would loop out of the force. When has Jacen used a drain?

DE Luke was a dangerous opponent was he not? Why didn't Sidious use every obscure force technique he knew against him? OK, I'll name some feats of Jacen's other than ones from novels 🙄 . Oh wait, he has only appeared in novels. What words of Lucas are you talking about?

I am not denying that.

You said Sidious could do anything Caedus can do. I was showing you how that statement is wrong.

Other than you and Darthsith, all anyone has given for proof is "Sidious rapes Caedus no problem!!!!"
To quote myself:

And Caedus managed to wound Luke, and even hit him with some force thrown objects. And Caedus's saber moved faster than the eye could see.

Why would I say that? If that was possible Nomi would be the best around.

He maximized every technique😐

I thought this was an all out fight. Once they get close enough for Caedus to use his lightsaber he can beat Sidious.

Wait, I thought this was an all out fight.

Did you even read the book? Luke manages to hit Jacen first because he has the advantage of suprise. Then Caedus does very well against him. When does Luke gain the upper hand? After he force pushes him into some tentacles. And Caedus does still fight a while longer against him. [/B]

I guess you missed the DE fight where not only was DE Sidious moving faster than the eye could see, but he was moving faster than even Leia, who as a Jedi, could follow. Add in the fact that his power was so great, storm troopers were dropping dead and that he looked like an avatar of darkness, and you have someone more powerful than anybody in the SW universe save for Luke.

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
Yes, Caedus hiding in the force will mean Sidious' precognition will be hindered. Let me explain. Jacen's lightsaber is moving [B]faster than the eye can see. Meaning Palpatine will rely even more on the force to predict Jacen's moves. Only he won't be able to sense what Caedus is doing, or about to do.

DE Luke was a dangerous opponent was he not? Why didn't Sidious use every obscure force technique he knew against him?

Nihilus fighting Sidious is a completely different situation. Sidious would surely sense he was going to drain him, and then he would loop out of the force. When has Jacen used a drain?

DE Luke was a dangerous opponent was he not? Why didn't Sidious use every obscure force technique he knew against him? OK, I'll name some feats of Jacen's other than ones from novels 🙄 . Oh wait, he has only appeared in novels. What words of Lucas are you talking about?

You said Sidious could do anything Caedus can do. I was showing you how that statement is wrong.

To quote myself:

And Caedus managed to wound Luke, and even hit him with some force thrown objects. And Caedus's saber moved faster than the eye could see.

I thought this was an all out fight. Once they get close enough for Caedus to use his lightsaber he can beat Sidious.

Did you even read the book? Luke manages to hit Jacen first because he has the advantage of suprise. Then Caedus does very well against him.

When does Luke gain the upper hand? After he force pushes him into some tentacles. And Caedus does still fight a while longer against him. [/B]

And note that jacen was getting his ass kicked very badly by luke despite luke going all out with a lightsaber.

When he got hurt way, way, way worse.

Anakin got hurt far worse than kenobi did in ROTS. Does that mean that it wasn't close?

No. However, Caedus giving a good fight doesn't offset the fact Luke was going to win from the get go.

I see. Its time to make sure you get your ass handed again seeing lightsnake already did that

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
Yes, Caedus hiding in the force will mean Sidious' precognition will be hindered. Let me explain. Jacen's lightsaber is moving [B]faster than the eye can see. Meaning Palpatine will rely even more on the force to predict Jacen's moves. Only he won't be able to sense what Caedus is doing, or about to do.[/B]

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns

DE Luke was a dangerous opponent was he not? Why didn't Sidious use every obscure force technique he knew against him?

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns

Nihilus fighting Sidious is a completely different situation. Sidious would surely sense he was going to drain him, and then he would loop out of the force.

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns

When has Jacen used a drain?

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns

DE Luke was a dangerous opponent was he not? Why didn't Sidious use every obscure force technique he knew against him?

Hence why sidious wouldnt use a technique which then will be blocked by luke?

Or the fact that he wanted to test luke and decided not to go all out? Despite all this it took leia look and anakin solo to sever palpatine off the force

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns

OK, I'll name some feats of Jacen's other than ones from novels 🙄 . Oh wait, he has only appeared in novels. What words of Lucas are you talking about?

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns

You said Sidious could do anything Caedus can do. I was showing you how that statement is wrong.

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns

Other than you and Darthsith, all anyone has given for proof is "Sidious rapes Caedus no problem!!!!"

Its already established sidious > caedus from various sources hence why the "sidious will rape caedus!!!"

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns

And Caedus managed to wound Luke, and even hit him with some force thrown objects. And Caedus's saber moved faster than the eye could see.

I guess by your logic bol chatak is even stronger than vader seeing she managed to wound him

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns

Why would I say that? If that was possible Nomi would be the best around.

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns

He maximized every technique😐

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns

I thought this was an all out fight. Once they get close enough for Caedus to use his lightsaber he can beat Sidious.

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns

Wait, I thought this was an all out fight.

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns

Did you even read the book? Luke manages to hit Jacen first because he has the advantage of suprise. Then Caedus does very well against him. When does Luke gain the upper hand? After he force pushes him into some tentacles. And Caedus does still fight a while longer against him.

Did luke use the force to a high degree? Did luke bothered to use emerald lightning?

Had he used the force caedus would have gotten killed

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No. However, Caedus giving a good fight doesn't offset the fact Luke was going to win from the get go.

Originally posted by darthsith19
I know, but there's a huge difference between winning and pwning somebody badly.

Originally posted by darthsith19
I know, but there's a huge difference between winning and pwning somebody badly.

Yes. However, you shouldn't forget Luke was only able to match Palpatine when they entered states of oneness with the dark and light.

As Palp showed in their earlier fight, he is far, FAR above Luke. even prior to their duel, he blasts Luke to the ground effortlessly

Originally posted by Manslayer
And caedus would have gotten pwned if luke resorted to the force

Come on, DS, don't ask us to account for plot induced stupidity. We see Luke effortlessly own Caedus with the Force earlier that very book.

Fine then, the plot induced stupidity version of Darth Caedus beats DE Sidious.

It's still DE Sidious DS. Jacen hasn't shown nearly enough to be considered even on par with Sidious.